 Poster: A snowHead
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Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 22-11-12 20:20; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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They have v.strict rules on accommodation, with certain metres per person needed, also I think bunk beds are not allowed?!
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 obviously different rules for French holiday apartments.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Chris198, if you've been called as a witness, i think you should remove that post!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The English interpretation of it is that the guests are responsible for themselves and that they follow at their own risk. Bit of a grey area really.
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I don't think this argument would stand up in an English court. But I think it would be heard in the civil not criminal court and only after some poor punter is injured and suing the company
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Chris198,I see, when I've been on the hill hosting, once or twice we had ESF giving "lessons" very close to the group and keeping up with us. It never worried me as I follow the guidelines, or at least it never worried me before your incident.
Bode Swiller, is more than likely right, baring in mind he is a fountain of all knowledge. After the case has been to court and you are free to talk I would like to hear the full story.
cheers
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There are very strict rules in France about deductions for food and accomodation from the minimum wage. A lift pass would be considered a professional expense (the TO generally gets a certain number of lift pass for free from the tourist office).
Of course TOs game the system by sending staff over on a UK contract despite the fact that the staff may come back to the guest country for a number of seasons and if only for one season the entire work period may be in the guest country. This puts UK TOs at an unfair advantage compared to local businesses which have to pay the local rate and abide by local employment laws.
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Taking this back to basics, my issue with this is that if I hired a guide to show me round London, I would expect them to be able to describe how to use public transport, good places to eat and drink and the sorts of sights that I might find enjoyable. I would not expect them to be qualified in teaching me how to walk or to be able to drive a london bus. Neither would I expect them to administer to me if I tripped on the pavement and broke my arm.
This, as somone has pointed out already is just a convenient vehicle to limit what the ESF see as competition although I think they have completely missed the point here.
Additionally, the staff may well be able to pass the Eurotest, but how many actually have some sort of teaching qualification. Very few I suspect and in my experience of the ESF (admittedly some time ago) there are plenty of personnel who may indeed be fantastic skiers but are singularly lacking in the ability to pass this skill and knowledge onto the people they are supposed to be instructing.
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| dsoutar wrote: |
Neither would I expect them to administer to me if I tripped on the pavement and broke my arm.
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Have you ever worked for a TO? Some guests spend their entire holidays looking for things they can potentially sue the TO for in order to get their holiday money back. That is why the back of the brochure has pages of small print that the punters never read but the reps (aka ski leaders) are supposed to know by heart.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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local employment laws.
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Which are, as I am sure you are quite aware, a major contribution to France's current unemployment problems. They are a total nightmare.
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under a new name, good point
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Which are, as I am sure you are quite aware, a major contribution to France's current unemployment problems. They are a total nightmare.
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in which case, demonstrations in court of how businesses which can contribute positively to the economy are being unreasonably hampered by those laws can only be a good thing. Plenty of French enterprises are making similar points - and Hollande is having to listen.
However, whilst the fact that French employment law is a "nightmare" is a good reason for radical reform, to reduce French unemployment problems, that doesn't make it too convincing a reason for French courts to look kindly on their being ignored by British firms who are (as pointed out above) bringing in cheap migrant labour rather than employing locals. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| under a new name wrote: |
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local employment laws.
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Which are, as I am sure you are quite aware, a major contribution to France's current unemployment problems. They are a total nightmare. |
That's a bit like saying that Starbucks shouldn't pay UK corporation tax because it is so high.
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pam w, Easy fix to this, don't go to France, don't use the ESF, TOs boycot French resorts, then lets see if the French still moan.
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You know it makes sense.
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| skir67 wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
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| But british clients could go to the esf who are cheaper in a lot of instances, however they obviously choose to payer the higher prices of the british schools so they must see value in their offerings otherwise the british schools could not charge what they do. |
^ and large numbers of British skiers do get lessons with the ESF (apparently 30% of their buisness in some resorts). |
Absolutely, I know the ESF gets a lot of brit custom. These are the customers who are more price sensitive or see no extra value in what the british schools offer. But obviously there are enough people who value the brit schools offering to pay the prices they charge under the way the system currently works. Obviously there would be a realignment in prices if brit schools could employ a level 2 or equivalent as there are a lot of those. |
I suspect the vast majority of Brits go with the ESF as we did for our first 2 weeks' skiing - just not knowing any different. You book to go on a ski holiday the first time with a TO, oh good you can book ski lessons through them. No idea who they are with or what any difference that would make. Or that British ski schools exist and you could choose to pay to learn to ski with them.
I really wish I'd learned to ski with a British ski school or a good recommneded instructor. As I said, my first two weeks with ESF were really pretty hopeless, with just being shouted at not to snowplough. It was only my third week with Masterclass at Alpe d'Huez that things clicked. 5 minutes of big toe, little toe was all I needed 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yeh - I'm with the don't go to France boycott
(Once the place is denuded of Brits I might finally be tempted to go places like VdI and Meribel)
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| pam w, Easy fix to this, don't go to France, don't use the ESF, TOs boycot French resorts, then lets see if the French still moan. |
Yep, but it'll never happen of course. There is such inertia from that 35% of the market that only thinks France. Their market share has come down a bit over recent years, probably due to in-resort prices, and Austria and Italy have benefitted but it's not by much. I doubt that the disappearance of hosts will make much difference. Presumably, while all the legal stuff is dragging on, there won't be many hosts at all in France this winter so it'll be interesting to see if the TOs suffer or employ legal hosts locally.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| davidof wrote: |
| Some guests spend their entire holidays looking for things they can potentially sue the TO for in order to get their holiday money back. |
Happens in every industry - there are always some people who look to complain about anything they possibly can just so they never have to pay for anything
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Swings and roundabouts....
People who work for English TO's often don't do it for the wages. Just the freebies and the chance to ski. They are happy or wouldn't take the jobs on offer.
The French see them as victims...because they have different rules.
Stop British TO's doing it 'their' way... and prices will go up. People will stop going on holiday. TO's will go out of business...and all the French Chalet owners and Hotel owners who rent their properties to British TO's will lose out too.
Surely the French can see this? They would be far worse of if the Brits pulled out.
Problem is, they like a bit of Drama and Bureaucracy... and like to talk about it over a long lunch.... than actually see the wood for the trees... http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21566640-why-france-could-become-biggest-danger-europes-single-currency-time-bomb-heart
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| fatbob wrote: |
Yeh - I'm with the don't go to France boycott
(Once the place is denuded of Brits I might finally be tempted to go places like VdI and Meribel) |
Yep sod France try Switzerland 
TBH it was one small part of the equation of moving to CH. to get away from the French Resorts and the s*** storm that I think is coming.
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| cathy wrote: |
| skir67 wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| But british clients could go to the esf who are cheaper in a lot of instances, however they obviously choose to payer the higher prices of the british schools so they must see value in their offerings otherwise the british schools could not charge what they do. |
^ and large numbers of British skiers do get lessons with the ESF (apparently 30% of their buisness in some resorts). |
Absolutely, I know the ESF gets a lot of brit custom. These are the customers who are more price sensitive or see no extra value in what the british schools offer. But obviously there are enough people who value the brit schools offering to pay the prices they charge under the way the system currently works. Obviously there would be a realignment in prices if brit schools could employ a level 2 or equivalent as there are a lot of those. |
I suspect the vast majority of Brits go with the ESF as we did for our first 2 weeks' skiing - just not knowing any different. You book to go on a ski holiday the first time with a TO, oh good you can book ski lessons through them. No idea who they are with or what any difference that would make. Or that British ski schools exist and you could choose to pay to learn to ski with them.
I really wish I'd learned to ski with a British ski school or a good recommneded instructor. As I said, my first two weeks with ESF were really pretty hopeless, with just being shouted at not to snowplough. It was only my third week with Masterclass at Alpe d'Huez that things clicked. 5 minutes of big toe, little toe was all I needed |
Certainly there's plenty of truth in what you say. There will also be those who choose to go to ESF because they are cheaper and some who have had a good experience with ESF so return to them.
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Much prefer skiing amongst French than with 'certain' Brits that frequent the 3v's and VDi.
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+1. Thankfully I know my way round my area quite well, there are no TOs, no Brit package holiday makers (just some Brits who arrange their own holidays and seem to know how to behave when they are guests in a foreign country), no barmaids who can't speak French, no Irish bars, no absurd rip-off prices and no high rise concrete. 
It was reported above that St Anton has banned all but qualified ski hosts/guides. Will that decimate numbers of UK visitors?
This is something of a "much ado about nothing" between protagonists who are, as might be expected, protecting their own interests. On the face of it, neither is exactly a shining example of probity.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| spud wrote: |
Swings and roundabouts....
People who work for English TO's often don't do it for the wages. Just the freebies and the chance to ski. They are happy or wouldn't take the jobs on offer.
The French see them as victims...because they have different rules.
Stop British TO's doing it 'their' way... and prices will go up. People will stop going on holiday. TO's will go out of business...and all the French Chalet owners and Hotel owners who rent their properties to British TO's will lose out too.
Surely the French can see this? They would be far worse of if the Brits pulled out.
Problem is, they like a bit of Drama and Bureaucracy... and like to talk about it over a long lunch.... than actually see the wood for the trees... http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21566640-why-france-could-become-biggest-danger-europes-single-currency-time-bomb-heart |
That is a big problem... AIUI, and based on all the LM7 stuff from last year, the French think you should get a minimum wage and you shouldn't make deductions for accommodation and so forth, whereas British TOs think that paying everybody substantially <£100/week and making them waive the 48 hour working week thing is OK. So there's a major clash there.
And to be fair, the TOs have a point, if they were forced to pay all their staff the minimum wage and limit their working hours they'd be screwed.
Thing is, most of the people working under these arrangements think they're getting an OK deal (although IME there's no delusions that it's a fantastic deal or anything, just tolerable in exchange for the experience).
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Thing is, most of the people working under these arrangements think they're getting an OK deal (although IME there's no delusions that it's a fantastic deal or anything, just tolerable in exchange for the experience).
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If agricultural "gang bosses" shipped people in from, say Bangladesh, gave them garden sheds to sleep in and paid them their food and a pittance, and shipped them home again after four months, they would think they were getting an OK deal.
The same would apply in many other industries - and there are some very well qualified people in Bangladesh.
How would their competitors in the UK react?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| Yep sod France try Switzerland |
Agreed. Bloody Swiss
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hi Guys,
Me again. This topic is actually very important!
It IS about safety. Look at it not from ESF or TO point of view look at it from a historical point of view. The prosecution claim a skier is leading others for money around the mountains on skis without having the appropriate qualification.
There is a French law that prohibits this: the Code du Sport. Why was this law originally brought in? It was to stop unqualified or inappropriately qualified people claiming professional competence or having their clients assume they had professional competence and potentially putting people in danger.
This all happened at a time when skiing did not have so many pistes, there weren't so many groomed runs and equipment and clothing were different. O.K. it's cosier now but it's not just a white beach it's a real mountain and at the drop of a hat can change to be a white hell. I know ski patrols are there but they won't necessarily see you. Particularly if you mis-navigate. Of course even the most qualified can make mistakes but at least it's less likely.
So the French say that only Ski Instructors or Mountain Guides can ski as professionals whether teaching, accompanying or whatever.
It was not there to stop adults - even in groups who wished to going into the mountains under their own responsibility. Just to stop people paying to be taken out by someone who could be dangerous.
Forget the relative competences or skills, or attitudes of Ski Instructors of various nationalities, that is virtually done and dusted. We are talking about ski "hosts", "guides" or "leaders".
This is about whether relatively inexperienced or completely unqualified people should lead others around the hill, for payment. In France.
French law says they cannot. My guess is that there is similar legislation in other Alpine countries.
British tour operators for years has either through ignorance or through deliberately ignoring the facts, have pushed the boundaries of existing French law for the last 30 or so years. With ski hosts, their own ski schools and sometimes with their own employment practices.
The name of the game is profit. I am the first to agree that British customers may have enjoyed what was on offer, but where there have been accidents they normally haven't been reported for what they were. We are not a litigious nation and if pursued most settlements would have been out of court. In any case any cases under British law would have been civil not criminal and so unreported.
These French regulations have been put there to stop potential accidents. I would guess by regulating the industry (no matter how strictly in some peoples point of view), they have been by and large successful.
So now Tour Operators want to try and de-criminalise the practice of ski hosting for payment to suit their profits. Is this sort of de-regulation REALLY best for the British skiing public? Because it won't just be the Brits doing it, it will be everyone else. Davidof has much more knowledge about the off-piste statistics than I do believe me it will happen there as well.
I have acted an expert witness in a case involving a Ski Club of great Britain "Leader" and the injuries were very serious. (Sorry no further details on that, it's in the past and was settled out of court.) It was a bit of a double barreled blonde shotgun to the SCGB though, as combined with other events they changed their practices (a bit).
Please everyone, just by saying the ESF want to protect their pay packet I do not believe you are doing them any justice. Ski Schools and Instructors and they see patterns of behaviour throughout the season. Think of the origins of the law again it still is when you get down to it about safety. It does not gain a ski school any real money if the practice is stopped. It does though, cost the tour companies potential profit.
Many top ski professionals started their lives as ski hosts or instructors working for tour companies, but that was then.
I ask the question again is this really good for the British skiing public? AND is French law - given what I have just said really likely to change?
Would the cost of a tour operator holiday - if they could not offer hosting - go down?
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Saint,
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It was to stop unqualified or inappropriately qualified people claiming professional competence or having their clients assume they had professional competence
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Thing is, though, not everybody agrees that those two criteria actually obtain in the case of TO hosts. (See above, passim.)
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You know it makes sense.
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Bloody editors
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Saint, I think you answered your own argument, the Code was set up before piste skiing was the order of the day. I can fully understand a law which prevents people being lead off of a cliff or into avalanche terrain by someone who doesn't have the first clue, but we're talking about being hosted around clearly marked pistes, never off piste or in areas with any more danger than someone that bought a lift ticket, only ever skied on piste would expect to be exposed to.
If a TO didn't offer hosting I can't see the cost go down, normally it's the ski host that does things like airport transfers, arranging lift tickets and lessons, excursions, etc. They'd still need the member of staff.
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Poster: A snowHead
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It's still a mountain and still got it's dangers like on a boat - it was flat calm when we left, guitar It was in tune when I bought it - what can go wrong fairly often does then or now the argument is still valid.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I remain to be convinced that enough of the average punters will go for one TO package/Resort/Country in preference to another on account of the availibity or not of "free" ski hosting. Regardless of whether clients do appreciate the service when its there. Unless they perceive hosting as free lessons.
If I am right, then all a judgement against the Le Ski will do, is stop TOs from officially providing said service in France. TO's won't really loose business, ESF won't gain any, and status quo will ensue...
And the average snowhead is not the average a week a year skier..
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Saint, can you cite specific cases involving British tour operator hosts where client safety has been compromised. (Forget SCGB and under-qualified instructors for just a sec, specifically British tour op hosts)
See, thing is, if it's true that this is all about safety, I'd expect there to be evidence against tour ops and I'm not hearing any.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Not trying to get out of this but there's the problem. Accident happens, hospital, get home, think, contact lawyer start process against company. cCompany's insurance company takes over A year maybe more expert witnesses etc. Settles out of court (so as not to make any law on the matter) no statistics!
Try asking about how many construction workers die in Dubai through lack of health and safety....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Saint, how many construction workers die in Dubai through lack of health and safety?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Saint, if it was about safety then the TOs insurers would have stopped the practice years ago. It obviously isn't a safety issue.
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| Kruisler wrote: |
If I am right, then all a judgement against the Le Ski will do, is stop TOs from officially providing said service in France. TO's won't really loose business, ESF won't gain any, and status quo will ensue...
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I suspect this is the most likely scenario.
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No because most people who hurt themselves blame themselves we really are not a litigious society
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Saint, sorry, a Dubai building site is a ridiculous analogy. I'm not talking here about the odd minor injury that someone later thinks (wrongly) that they can make a few quid out of and is an injury that they would have sustained anyway just piste skiing with their pals, I'm interested in the big stuff where ski patrol/cops attend major injury/death, host arrested etc. Are there any?
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Saint, if it was about safety, all tourists would be required to go to ski school and get a certificate of competence before being allowed out on the pistes unaccompanied by an instructor.
Unqualified does not equal inexperienced; witness the number of snowheads who are bloody excellent skiers with nary a qualification between them. And qualifications don't necessarily equal experience - it could even be said that some also reward a more gung-ho nature (I'm thinking here that (IIRC) BASI's entry requirement is 16 weeks on snow and able to ski all pistes in control: a young lad with lots of testosterone who enjoys an adrenaline kick could easily get to that level in 16 weeks, but would I want to learn from him over, say, a 40 year old who's taken 10 times that before entering the system and qualifying? I think not. And as an aside, the French/ET system also ensures that it is mostly spotty-faced teenagers that are going to be able to reach the top levels - said 40 year old is unlikely (not impossible but vastly unlikely) ever to be able to pass the ET)
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Thu 22-11-12 16:16; edited 1 time in total
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FAQ
