 Poster: A snowHead
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hammerite, as I understand it you are right: the resort provides accommodation and lift pass. SCGB provides "expenses", such as travel and food allowance, both of which have been significantly reduced in recent years.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| Jonpim wrote: |
KenX and ed123: the unofficial off-the-record comment by a source close to the Ski Club said: "It's true. But they should be fine. It's just the French police doing one of their usual sweeps".  |
A 'normal' sweep usually involves checking paperwork but doesn't include a court visit.
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and even if the police made an arrest the prosecutor may decided not to press charges once he'd reviewed the case. An armed gang were released in Grenoble recently because the prosecutor decided there was no evidence they were going to commit a crime, he didn't even press a firearms charge for an AK47!
There is obviously a lot more going on in the Savoie / Haute Savoie than we know about at the moment.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Looking forward to hearing how this pans out in May. For us this year our white week was enjoyed in Canazei, Italy, after approx 12 trips to France - we find ski hosting very sociable, it really makes the holiday for us.
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| Quote: |
21:30 Reply with quote
pam w
super-snowHead
Posts: 37953
Location: le Beaufortain, France or Chichester Harbour
albinomountainbadger, I recall a BASS instructor, long ago, saying that he'd been worried about the "French language test" but it had been ridiculously easy.
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It has become a bit harder in recent years. The "language test" used to be workbook which you could complete in your own time (i.e. with a dictionary or your French mate around!). It's now a telephone conversation with a fluent speaker of the language. Mine involved some basic chat about where I'm from and how I ended-up living in the Alps, about my local resort, about snowboarding in general and my favourite places to go/things to do then some more serious stuff asking about what kind of injuries are common in snowboarding and what to do in an emergency.
It was very easy for me as I'm fluent in French, but I would imagine that many people would have found it fairly difficult.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| PlanetSKI report on the recent incident of a SCGB rep/leader on the slopes in Val D'Isere being stopped and questioned by Police: http://www.planetski.eu/news/5983 |
If found guilty, the end of SCGB?
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sequoiaboard, Well, the decision all hinges on the French Court's view as to whether the current SCGB arrangements for its reps/leaders constitutes "remuneration".
Worst case scenario for the Club if the decision goes against them is that they won't be able to offer the Leader service in France. Plenty of other countries with ski slopes though... 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I recall reading somewhere that accommodation and provision of 'required tools' (e.g. lift pass if it's required to carry out the role) for a seasonal job were not considered remuneration under French law, but they would be under UK law. Can anyone confirm?
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| sequoiaboard wrote: |
| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| PlanetSKI report on the recent incident of a SCGB rep/leader on the slopes in Val D'Isere being stopped and questioned by Police: http://www.planetski.eu/news/5983 |
If found guilty, the end of SCGB? |
and any other ski club where any expenses are covered?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| davidof wrote: |
| sequoiaboard wrote: |
| Alastair Pink wrote: |
| PlanetSKI report on the recent incident of a SCGB rep/leader on the slopes in Val D'Isere being stopped and questioned by Police: http://www.planetski.eu/news/5983 |
If found guilty, the end of SCGB? |
and any other ski club where any expenses are covered? |
Expenses aren't even covered, only contributed to.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| feef wrote: |
| I recall reading somewhere that accommodation and provision of 'required tools' (e.g. lift pass if it's required to carry out the role) for a seasonal job were not considered remuneration under French law, but they would be under UK law. Can anyone confirm? |
I suspect the short answer will be, "no" as that's what a large part of the case will hinge on.
Yes, unlike in the UK, to an extent French law allows for individuals to claim expenses relating to their work (travel, lunch, clothes etc) but seeing as these guys don't pay tax in France, or apparently buy their own passes, I've no idea how that will work...
The tax code is available online though. A quick Google (by someone completely unqualified in these matters) suggests that lodgings, telephones, computers, etc are all taxable. Money given and then spent on boots, clothes, and anything in the previous line, is taxable. BUT it states that this applies if you're officially an employee. http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F1226.xhtml
One has to, I guess (what with not being in any way qualified as a French lawyer or tax advisor), then decided what is an employee. That's covered here: http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/F1225.xhtml
If the SCGB decide that their guides aren't employed, and are simply volunteers, then this may apply: "volunteers cannot accept any payments or benefits in kind, and may only accept reimbursement of expenses made on behalf of the association." http://www.assistant-juridique.fr/remboursement_benevole.jsp
Sports clubs often get special treatment so the first section of this may apply, basically saying that any monies a club gives to any individuals, amateur or professional, undertaking a sporting activity, should be subject to the equivalent of national insurance. It states that this applies also to benefits in kind (avantages en nature) : http://www.urssaf.fr/profil/associations/sportive/vos_salaries_-_vos_cotisations/taux_et_montants_01.html
Even if a pass is a freebie for a volunteer, they'll probably want to work out if he ever uses that pass for personal pleasure outside of the voluntary activity. Plenty for the professionals to dispute I guess...
As with the ski hosts this will boil down to French employment law even if the British media get hung up on the qualifications and freedom of movement issue. Fair play to planetski for being rather unique in pointing this out.
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I'd have thought it very unlikely that the reps/leaders (don't use the guide word!  ) would be considered as employees. As volunteers the French Court would then have to decide whether paid for accommodation and liftpass constitutes "benefits in kind"...
In that case it would seem that the SCGB reps/leaders should be subject to the equivalent of French National Insurance for any benefits in kind.
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You know it makes sense.
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Problem being we approach this from an anglo-saxon viewpoint, and the French codes have nothing in common with that. The court might decide they're employees simply because they have a contractual relationship to lead a group on a set day every week. I think even in UK law you're generally considered an employee if you have to routinely do what someone else tells you. They might also decide that the SCGB isn't a sports club as it doesn't have any athletes or training programs (that I know of being exercised by leaders). Maybe, if the resorts dole out the passes, the SCGB are classified as journalists on a freebie trip? Would that entail declaring the passes to the UK authorities perhaps?
It's very likely that the incredibly basic results I quickly found on Google here are irrelevant, because surely, if it was that easy, no right-minded lawyers would have told the SCGB to carry on regardless...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Fair play to planetski for being rather unique in pointing this out. |
Erm, I thought I read about it somewhere else first, can't think where now.
> In that case it would seem that the SCGB reps/leaders should be subject to the equivalent of French National Insurance for any benefits in kind.
probably exempt as they are only visiting for a few weeks from the UK
> The court might decide they're employees simply because they have a contractual relationship to lead a group on a set day every week.
That's an interesting point, do they sign such a contract?
The subject of reps "compensation" has come up a number of times over the years. The French mountaineering clubs I have been involved with have largely been scrupulous about everyone, incl. the leader, paying their way. The CAF (French Alpine Club) in Paris had this conversation way back. They were giving leaders "vouchers" to buy ski gear, esp safety gear, depending on how much leading they did. The Paris CAF runs almost like the Ski Club because they are a long way from the mountains the expenses of trips are consequently greater. They also have a permanent, professional staff. I remember some leaders had misgivings about accepting these vouchers as they felt they were straying into the territory of professional guides. You come down to the question: if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, is it in fact, a duck?
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 23-04-14 12:44; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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What if they are seen as "employed" but receiving " no renumeration " for such employment ..
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| davidof wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| Fair play to planetski for being rather unique in pointing this out. |
Erm, I thought I read about it somewhere else first, can't think where now. |
Well, I always bang on about it but the majority of the British media normally seem to ignore it completely.
| davidof wrote: |
> The court might decide they're employees simply because they have a contractual relationship to lead a group on a set day every week.
That's an interesting point, do they sign such a contract? |
I suspect that signing a contract or not carries little weight (especially if it's not written in French); if the matter is of importance then the court will just apply whatever label they think fits what is happening on the ground. Quite right with the quacking duck comment...
| limegreen1 wrote: |
| What if they are seen as "employed" but receiving " no renumeration " for such employment .. |
Don't think French law wouldn't stand for that, as far as I'm aware even interns must be paid now. The leaders would potentially have to set themselves up as contractors and all the nonsense that entails.
Again though, we have to forget the anglo-saxon perspective; French tax cases rarely go after individuals so the hosts/leaders/whatever will be let off free. It's the employers who will get heavily fined and censured, in this case I suspect they'd be asked to repay a considerable amount of National Insurance.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If the lift pass is a benefit in kind then as most instructors do not pay for a lift pass in France (acknowledging they do 2 days volunteering in the resort - well they do in the E-K) is that then subject to tax? A couple of days 'volunteer work' for a €1000 euro season pass is not a bad daily rate.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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a season pass for a 1000 euro...I thought chamonix was expensive!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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chocksaway, they don't get a season pass for a couple of days work, they get a day pass for the days they work/volunteer. Calling it a benefit in kind would be like calling the journeys a coach driver makes when driving, a benefit. I understand it is a season pass they use which is passed on to the next volunteer, I also understand that many resorts provide them foc.
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jbob, you're getting things confused. It's local ski instructors who get a free season pass in return for doing a couple of days of volunteer work.
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stevomcd,sorry I thought it was referring to the scgb reps. In most ski resorts in France and Italy all ISIA and above instructors get free or very cheap passes just by presenting their licence.
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jbob, not necessarily the case. Many resorts only give a relatively small discount to instructors and restrict free passes to times when you can prove you're with a client. Free / very-cheap season passes are often limited to bona-fide local instructors.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I wonder if our Nostragoldsmith is going to turn out to be prescient on the ski leading thang?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Alastair Pink wrote: |
Article by Peter Hardy discussing recent events here
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Peter Hardy is angry. Although likening the Gendarmerie to a "pro nazi militia" might expose him to a 75,000 euro fine and 5 years in prison when he next takes a ski trip to France. 
The legislation against hosts does seem perverse. I disagree with Hardy on this point though:-
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| Personally, I absolutely support their right to host members on-piste – but not away from marked and patrolled runs unless the leader has the necessary internationally-recognised qualifications. |
if the ski club truly believe they are a voluntary club they should also be leading off piste as well. French ski clubs do it. The fact they don't indicates that they are not sure of their position.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
The fact they don't indicates that they are not sure of their position.
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of that they are not sure of their competence, maybe?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
The fact they don't indicates that they are not sure of their position.
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of that they are not sure of their competence, maybe? |
Well they used to be quite happy about it and I expect a lot of the leaders are more competent now than Boffo and old Bertie of the 1970s. Is it just the general UK zero risk culture?
Having a club whose major raison d'être is to lead people around open and clearly marked ski runs, not giving even a hint of instruction, seems like a daft idea, you would only imagine them getting a few people skiing with the rep each week, leaving him with a huge amount of time on his hands to pursue other activities. Oh... hang on a minute.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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davidof, I think it is due to a previous death (or may have been serious injury) of a club member when being led off piste a few years back..
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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davidof, the Beagles are still going with member led/organised tours and good for them. I sometimes feel I ought to get back into organising trips for them but it's actually a lot of hassle and I have got to the stage that with my limited time in the mountains, I am happy for someone to do most of the thinking for me  That said, I had a couple of days of self-guided skiing at the end of my last trip and it is a different experience with different rewards for a desk jockey punter like me
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Probably down to SCGB Insurers, they certainly used to do off piste occasionally
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| davidof, I think it is due to a previous death (or may have been serious injury) of a club member when being led off piste a few years back.. |
but clubs like the French and Swiss Alpine Club have had numerous deaths over the years and have carried on regardless
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| davidof wrote: |
| Alastair Pink wrote: |
Article by Peter Hardy discussing recent events here
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Peter Hardy is angry. Although likening the Gendarmerie to a "pro nazi militia" might expose him to a 75,000 euro fine and 5 years in prison when he next takes a ski trip to France.
The legislation against hosts does seem perverse. I disagree with Hardy on this point though:-
| Quote: |
| Personally, I absolutely support their right to host members on-piste – but not away from marked and patrolled runs unless the leader has the necessary internationally-recognised qualifications. |
if the ski club truly believe they are a voluntary club they should also be leading off piste as well. French ski clubs do it. The fact they don't indicates that they are not sure of their position. |
They do lead off piste:
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| Skiing with the Ski Club means you can really get the most out of your time on the mountain. Leader groups provide the opportunity to ski with other members, with weekly programmes catering for different abilities. These include both on and off-piste options, so you can pick the days which suit you best. |
http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/skiclubleaders/whyskiwithaskiclubleader.aspx
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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feef, I think the off piste option will usually involve hiring a guide for the day
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| Arno wrote: |
| feef, I think the off piste option will usually involve hiring a guide for the day |
For trips further afield, that is an option, but off-piste is still done as a leader.
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FAQ
This is on sheltered water in Chichester Harbour. Really pathetic. Though I have spoken to a friend about our taking two boats out without safety cover, and might actually manage that.
