 Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Saint wrote: |
| Ski guide / hosts are a purely British invention |
I believe that there are many resorts in North America that offer hosts who will show you around the resort. |
yep, and they are often retired folks who ski at a leisurely pace and are friendly and helpful to the max. For sure they are mostly totally unqualified but even the land of litigation knows that ain't an issue.
It isn't just French v Brit stuff. I can never forget the trials and tribulations of an old pal Jean-Yves Lapeyrere who was arrested and jailed on quite a few occasions in the 80s while running Ski Cocktail, a rival to the ESF in many top level resorts. This was a big time Frog v Frog fight to the death. He broke down the barriers, at considerable personal cost, to allow others to set up ski schools. Sadly he went out of business in the process.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| shep wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
Also (and correct me if I am wrong on my history please Shep), in the past certain local Unions have seen fit to employ foreigners and allow them to wear the mythical red uniform (or even people hailing from different départements. mon dieu!) when it suited them, partially or entirely against the code civile. |
As I understand it (as explained to me by the Avoriaz ESF director in December '89 whilst sacking me) |
This Avoriaz ski school director he didn't smoke a pipe (not a euphemism  ) did he by any chance?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bode Swiller, I had some lessons with Ski Cocktail once, in Val d'Isere or maybe Courchevel, many years ago. Breath of fresh air to be actually taught by an instructor who wanted me to improve rather than just led around the mountain by a congenial local from the ESF who bore a badge which said Moniteur, but was anything but.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Saint wrote: |
| Ski guide / hosts are a purely British invention |
I believe that there are many resorts in North America that offer hosts who will show you around the resort. |
yep, and they are often retired folks who ski at a leisurely pace and are friendly and helpful to the max. For sure they are mostly totally unqualified but even the land of litigation knows that ain't an issue.
It isn't just French v Brit stuff. I can never forget the trials and tribulations of an old pal Jean-Yves Lapeyrere who was arrested and jailed on quite a few occasions in the 80s while running Ski Cocktail, a rival to the ESF in many top level resorts. This was a big time Frog v Frog fight to the death. He broke down the barriers, at considerable personal cost, to allow others to set up ski schools. Sadly he went out of business in the process. |
I experienced the same in BC last Season.
Ski host/guides that were complimentary to visitors.
All the guides seemed to be volunteer locals...
If North America can do it, with all their safety issues and Insurance claim culture, without fear, and still make a profit in Ski School ( this is a resort initiative, not TO's ), then why can't the French do it?
Taken from SP's website...
http://www.sunpeaksresort.com/winter/guided-tours/sun-guide
Sun Guide Tours
Consistently ranked one of the best resort experiences by our guests! Take advantage of our complimentary, friendly Sun Guide mountain tours available for all ability levels and terrain preferences.
The Sun Guide meeting location is slope side between the Sunburst Express Chairlift and the Village Day Lodge. Look for our big smiles and orange coats with 'Sun Guide' embroidered across the back.
Complimentary tours depart daily at 9:15am and 1:00pm. Please be at the meeting location 10 minutes early.
Tours cater to all ability levels, and terrain preferences. From gentle groomed slopes to bumps to powder we have guides that can take you to the terrain you want to ski.
Participants must at the least be able to ski or ride green runs with confidence, making strong parallel turns. Sun Guide tours are not a lesson, nor are they certified to offer instruction. Sun Guides are not permitted to ski glade areas or on double black diamond runs with guests.
A few comments from our guests:
While at your resort we were looking at a trail map at the Sunburst Restaurant and one of your Sun Guides Laurie asked if we had any questions. We had questions, which she answered, and then asked if we wanted her to show us around the hill for the afternoon. We skied all over the hill with her. The following day we met up with Laurie in the morning and skied all day. On this day there were now four of us all skiing with her, with all different abilities and needs. She kept us all happy and safe. We went to areas we would have never skied."
– Nancy, USA
Your Sun Guide program is excellent. We learned more about the terrain than we could have imagined in a fairly short period. The sticky buns at the Sunburst Lodge were also great. We will be coming back for certain."
– Peter, Canada
Your ski host service was the best part of skiing here. It gave my children independence to ski the mountain. The guides, Chase, Jim, Sigi, and Laurie were exceptional with all of us. If you asked me why I would come back to Sun Peaks from New Zealand, it would be to see these helpful people, and because I know that my kids would be safe on the mountain."
– Kaye, New Zealand
The whole experience was great, and Sun Guide Wally was outstanding. This was, by far, the best experience we’ve ever had at a ski resort. Wally was so friendly and cheerful, he made the whole day fantastic. It was like skiing with a good friend."
– Michael and Stephanie, Australia
I think what I enjoyed the most about Sun Peaks are the Sun Guides. They have taken me places in the resort I would have never ventured. Generally, I found this to be such a friendly resort, and the Sun Guides really know the value of service."
– Alan, Canada
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
If North America can do it, with all their safety issues and Insurance claim culture, without fear, and still make a profit in Ski School ( this is a resort initiative, not TO's ), then why can't the French do it?
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It's quite simple ... it's against French law ! Whether this is right or wrong can be debated but is not going to change it. It's also not in the hands of the ESF.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Bode Swiller, the guy you knew, and many others, including Brits, seem to have won that battle. From what I've seen, France now has plenty of independent (ie not ESF) ski schools, including loads of British ones. Is there any other alpine nation which has so many "foreign" ski schools in operation?
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| marksavoie wrote: |
| It's also not in the hands of the ESF. |
If that is the case, why are the heads of 4 ESF schools in London to negotiate with representatives of UK tour operators who bring many clients to the large French ski resorts? I think this a really peculiar thing to happen.
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| marksavoie wrote: |
| Quote: |
If North America can do it, with all their safety issues and Insurance claim culture, without fear, and still make a profit in Ski School ( this is a resort initiative, not TO's ), then why can't the French do it?
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It's quite simple ... it's against French law ! Whether this is right or wrong can be debated but is not going to change it. It's also not in the hands of the ESF. |
True - it's in the hands of the customers - if they value the ski hosting experience (and I can understand why some people do) they can choose to go somewhere else other than France where it is allowed. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yes i am a ski instructor, yes I live in France. Protecting my own interests NO but I do have a point of view that comes from a mix of local, legal, skiing and really proud to be British knowledge and bias. So that said I am not on the side of the French at all. BUT I am on the side of giving everyone who skis the best time they can have in a safe and manageable way.
Lets take the lower quotes in order and work upwards:
The ski schools that took on British Ski Instructors, (I was in Alpe D'Huez in 1988/9) they did not pay them on the books (i.e. paid on the black) and they were probably uninsured etc. They and the ski school were inconstant danger of being controlled by the French sports ministry and their employment was even then against the law. The "I have Carte Blanche" comment was probably an attempt to stop an official complaint being made! You were unofficial and vulnerable and French employment law would have backed you up if you had sufficient proof. (I hate that exploitation bit).
The practice did not last very long. Some French non ESF ski schools tried, e.g. Magic in Motion, but were forced to comply to the law by the Ministry. The Directors never had Carte Blanche. It was all very official and led to the sacking of a few Directors. (This is due to the way some Directors are paid i.e. linked to overall profits, so paying on the black increases their salary)
Yes normal business practice is to get people drunk and make them your friends, give them a percentage and hope they will play ball, look at scandals in the city!
As to who exactly originated ski guiding as we know it, I am not sure, but it was well jumped on by the big boys and certainly for profit!
I have during the day read just about all of the forum and there have been some very good posts and some interesting stories. Many of which I totally agree with.
Guiding done well is a really good experience for the client but done badly or crossing over to replace teaching or alpine guiding it needs to be regulated, hence the other countries jumping on the French bandwagon.
Regulation means a qualification, which means cost to a tour company which they probably will not want.
The ESF and others by the way, have made complaints against some people but in my area we have invasions - (far worse than any British one) from the Swiss, Belgians and Danish. They masquerade as ski clubs (or sometimes not) but they are being paid (and I am being very honest here) they are dangerous on the hill. Then they disappear after a week and we cannot control them. A lone Brit or anyone who is employed to be there all season will be controlled inevitably. What's worse from my point of view are the French ski clubs who arrive in droves in coaches at the weekends in January (just watch the accident toll rise) - but we can do nothing it's legal...
A story: 2 Danish guide / instructors in a resort near me upon being pursued by the Gendarmes crossed over into the adjoining French Departement crying you have no jurisdiction here - they were right - they just skied away.
To go with the protectionism thing, it was only a matter of time that local people from no matter what country would notice that there was no sharing from ski guides towards the locals (sorry I don't think there IS much these days) and then start to think that they would be better off without them. Depending on the particular area, it is my guess that ski guides as they exist are illegal in most Alpine areas - if someone has knowledge on this I would be interested to know.
Regarding the old Capa days I have a point of view which comes from the heart. The French possibly did the British ski instruction industry a real service by challenging our right to teach. By restricting the levels at which British ski instructors could come into France it gave British ski teachers a proper career path. So now levels 1 through 4 have clearly defined roles and responsibilities and a clear pathway to being well paid for the skills they have and 2 out of the 4 qualifications are valid and well respected internationally. It stopped young, keen but lowly qualified instructors being exploited by large tour operators to the exclusion of better qualified but more expensive others.
The training centre thing is an anomaly that I have not got to the bottom of yet, partly it is to do with facilities and partly to do with certain qualified personnel and to do with the number of instructors in the ski school (it went from 5 to 12). It was originally designed to stop small independent ski schools (French not British) from growing. Protectionist? YES
Looking after my own interests now Piste-Hors?
Thanks for a really good chat on this all it is important that we forget the Jingo bit and realise that this whole thing is an ongoing evolving process that happily involves sliding around on snow!
And will someone put a BRITISH spell check in to replace the Yank one colour and realise are English words for heaven's sake.
Oh and bureaucracy is is a French word!
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Sorry my very bad typing error Magic in Motion were in no way involved in my post above it was Ski Cocktail apologies to magic in motion you guys are both cool and very legal. Saint
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Saint wrote: |
| Guiding done well is a really good experience for the client but done badly or crossing over to replace teaching or alpine guiding it needs to be regulated, hence the other countries jumping on the French bandwagon. |
Some interesting points, some of which I agree with, others not so much. Just on this point of regulating ski hosting / guiding, I agree with you that it should not cross the boundary to encroach on teaching. So with that in mind what level of qualification do you think would be necessary to ensure that clients are guided / hosted safely around the the pistes? Does it need a fully qualified instructor to do that?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The problem with the French is that they have no word for "entrepreneur".
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You know it makes sense.
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| Saint wrote: |
| As to who exactly originated ski guiding as we know it, I am not sure, but it was well jumped on by the big boys and certainly for profit! |
When Erna Low started her chalet holidays in 1932 she used to ski with her guests. I guess it started there.
In the modern era (from when package hols got seriously popular in the 70s and 80s) it was the likes of Neilson and Mark Warner who made a promotional play out of 'guiding'. Neilson had high standards, minimum BASI Grade 2 (which would be Level 3 ish today) and MW just employed competent skiers, normally recruited as a result of a ski-off on Hillingdon dry slope! Anyway, it worked very well, so well that it probably did stop people from needing to employ a local instructor to show them around in a follow-me way. Meanwhile schools operators like Hourmont and Schools Abroad had their own ski schools made up of old BASI Grade 3s mainly and I can certainly see how the clamp down got started. I was out there mid 80s when British instructors started to get arrested. I avoided it but ended up with an ESF guy shadowing my class - we had to employ them and they just stood there, bored witless, puffing. Anyway, nearly 30 years on and the lawyers are still the winners.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Anyway, nearly 30 years on and the lawyers are still the winners. |
And perhaps the guests are the losers?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Bode Swiller, I skied with Mark Warner in Les Arcs in the early 1980's, the Mark Warner ski host was Les Ward.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| Bode Swiller, I skied with Mark Warner in Les Arcs in the early 1980's, the Mark Warner ski host was Les Ward. |
Wow!
I've seen some of the on-snow interviews for what I assume are ski hosts for a well known tour operator taking place at Hemel in recent weeks. A handful of decent skiers at maybe BASI L1 or perhaps L2 standard, but mostly very poor holiday skiers. No idea if any of them got a job, but purely on ski ability I wouldn't have taken many on. Difference between them and Les Ward is significant, to say the least!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Spyderman, that was lucky. He also worked for Neilson, you sure it wasn't a Neilson trip? Anyway, most MW hosts were nowhere near his level.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Anyway, nearly 30 years on and the lawyers are still the winners. |
And perhaps the guests are the losers? |
Yes, they are and the knock-on is that everyone associated with the French business is also a loser. Delighted guests = more return business, simple as that really.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Anyway, nearly 30 years on and the lawyers are still the winners. |
And perhaps the guests are the losers? |
Yes, they are and the knock-on is that everyone associated with the French business is also a loser. Delighted guests = more return business, simple as that really. |
I find it astonishing that the French tourist industry can't see that simple reality. I like skiing in France, have a small apartment there, probably spend two months each year visiting, yet I despair at some of the things I see. A lot of the criticism seems exaggerated to me, but there is always a kernel of truth. Prices can be high, but always possible to find some good value place. Service can be poor, with the oft-quoted gallic shoulder shrug, but plenty of places seem to make the effort. But as you say, guilt by association is rife and understandable. This business with ski hosts just plays to that stereotype.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Saint, +1
(I guess the underlying software is 'Merkin).
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I wonder how many UK opperators are planning to refer their clients to ESF ski school this season? I think the ESF might be in for a bit of a shock.
I suspect independent ski schools will see a big increase in business and ESF will regret biting the hand that feeds.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
and the knock-on is that everyone associated with the French business is also a loser. Delighted guests = more return business
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Yes, more return business for the British tour operators who only employ only British staff (requiring UK NI number, bank account etc) so they can circumvent French employment law and not even give the chance to local French youngsters (some of whom speak excellent English).
Protectionism? If you can ski to the required standard there's no issue. The French have no problems in finding enough skiers good enough to pass the Eurotest. French culture is different in sport; most of their qualifications require very high levels of personal ability not just skiing be it rock climbing, cycling or whatever. Why should the British impose their (low) standards of skiing on the French (and other alpine nations) in their own country?
To clear up another misunderstanding the French Code de Sport doesn't just refer to teaching but also "animation" and "encadrement"; so it covers ski leaders and ski hosts. There's precedent for this in a case in 2003 against Ski Olympic whose conviction was confirmed at the Court of Appeal in Chambery upholding the decision of the Court in Albertville.
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Just to point out that of course British TOs don't only offer chalets, but also beds in 'normal' hotels in resorts. When we go with a TO, this is where we would normally stay, along with guests from other countries. So if we don't go back to a resort of course it does affect that local economy, even though very minutely 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| andyhull wrote: |
I wonder how many UK opperators are planning to refer their clients to ESF ski school this season? I think the ESF might be in for a bit of a shock.
I suspect independent ski schools will see a big increase in business and ESF will regret biting the hand that feeds. |
There is a question of capacity though. For the larger TO's the ESF is often the only option as only they have enough instructors to cover the demand across the whole season. I think there will be an effect on the ESF as more of the smaller independent TO's move away from them but the big TO's who might like to go to a brit independent will probably not be able to owing to the requirements of their business. But it's going to be interesting to watch.
If I were the owner of a brit independent school I would be actively aiming to entice good english speaking and motivated french instructors to work for my school.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I've really had some great skiing experiences in France over the past 3 decades, and I remember in the mid-80's some school ski TO's using British Ski Instructors (usually L1's clocking some hours on their logs). Worked quite well until a couple of them were taken off the mountain at Meribel by gun-toting Gendarmes.
I'm quite happy that the ESF, or any governing body in any sport, tries to ensure the safety and security of any skiing client and commits to creating a positive ski experience. What I find now in the French resorts I've skied over the recent 5/6 years (EK, 3V, Megeve, Serre Che, Grand Massif, to name a few) is clearly a move to maximise income/profit. Skiing in France now seems hell-bent on becoming a money-making-behemoth rather than a real mountain experience. Some other thread talks about the cost of food on the mountains, and I usually use the cost of a beer as a barometer of in-resort prices, both on the mountain and in resort. The massive price hikes in recent years really hit home when the Euro exchange was 1:1, my nice lunch with decent wine at the Edelweiss restaurant in Le Fornet which used to be 50/60 Euros @ 1.3:1 to GBP became 60/70 Euros @ 1:1. Beer was anything from 5 Euro to 9 Euro. Admittedly the exchange rate has improved but my memories of that holiday in particular were first and foremost the stinging prices, the indifferent French, the crowded resort rond-point, rather than the great skiing and decent snow. I've not been back to France since 2010.
France has become not the place I look to go skiing first. It's now 3rd or below in terms of country of choice. And this is not the first time this has been the case in the past 3 decades simply because of the "French experience".
It's not just the ESF that p*ss people off, practice protectionism, and act arsey. THAT is a French trait it appears. Such a pity as well!
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| shep wrote: |
skir67 Ah, the haze of pipe smoke, wood glue (he's a carpenter) and skiwax on entering his office made it hard to focus on speaking french! A decent bloke caught up in a political crisis.
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Yes he seemed a decent bloke when I met him. I ended up being referred to look after a guy in a sitski for a week through a british school I was doing sales work for at the time. I had to go to see him to get paid! I got the feeling that if he could have offered me a full-time job he might very well have done and having done race training with one of their other instructors I liked them mainly and would probably have gone for it.
It's a shame that collectively there are so many issues between the different parties as on an individual level many that I met were great people.
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You know it makes sense.
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I still fail to see how they can enforce this law when the TO's are not explicitly charging for a service and in general you are just turning up to ski with the host rather than formally signing up for a specific service. I have also noticed a number of websites, often aimed a the the single skiier, where the organiser is essentially organising a group holiday in exchange for free skiing for themselves, but they offer to show the other "guests" aroud the slopes based upon their knowledge of previous visits. They are certainly not a TO, so where do they stand?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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marksavoie, nothing to stop a French national from applying to a British TO for a job. Sounds to me like the guys you describe would make ideal hosts. I bet they don't apply though. In other walks of business life in the UK, especially London, I bump into French nationals all the time. I don't sit there complaining to myself that they have somehow stolen a job from a Brit.
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Poster: A snowHead
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After having to look up the French Code Du Sport, I was a little intrigued after following a few links, to see how much pressure ESF is under from the EU and many countries about how it operates, to be fair I was not aware that ESF is a "not for profit organisation" and therefore operates out side the French and EU tax laws, i.e. they pay no VAT.
There appears to be a lot of pressure on the ESF to move out from under what some EU politicians say "is a company that operates illegally" under EU law.
It would appear on the surface that as with any large organisations the more pressure being applied results in the ever increasing smoke screen about something else to detract from the real questions being asked. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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marksavoie, on our first visit to Serre Chevalier, the Crystal rep was a local French guy.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| skimastaaah wrote: |
France has become not the place I look to go skiing first. It's now 3rd or below in terms of country of choice. And this is not the first time this has been the case in the past 3 decades simply because of the "French experience".
It's not just the ESF that p*ss people off, practice protectionism, and act arsey. THAT is a French trait it appears. Such a pity as well! |
I feel fairly similarly and, whilst I would be swayed by conditions/price/availability and, in spite of quite liking France (been on holiday there well over 20 times), I do tend more towards Italy now, if I can - in my general experience, they're friendlier, seem to be happy to deliver good service, provide better quality food, yet still seem to be quite relaxed and willing to engage with people.
As an aside, I've never had a poor experience with ESF instructors, either in terms of technical content or attitude. That said, I've only ever used them on a one-to-one basis. The best instruction, though, was from a BASI (old L1) and an Italian racer (probably the most exciting too )
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Posidrive wrote: |
| I still fail to see how they can enforce this law when the TO's are not explicitly charging for a service |
They are charging for the service, it is part of the price you pay for the holiday. The rep is also paid for providing the service. Claiming it is a "free service" doesn't wash with the courts.
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Generic anti ESF rants are just dumb.
Especially some of the drivel claiming that all ESF instructors are pipe smoking, 'bend zee knees' dinosaurs.
Basically the ESF is a national co-op of ski instructors. Operating this way gives them employment and tax benefits whilst maintaing national standards. Each local ski school has it own manager and is run under the ESF umbrella. Fundamentally France still has more socialist beliefs than we do in the UK. For example they still have a national rail network! Any trainee French instructor needs to become a stagiere with the ESF and the vast majority of ski instructors in France work for the ESF (about 17K of them!). Right or wrong they also believe that ski instructing is a full time career that should be well renumerated, and not something you do for a few years in yours 20s as a life style choice / gap year. The protectionism is about maintaining this status quo and wages high. It is nothing to do with keeping Brits out!
Ironically its the French system that helps ensure any British instructors operating in France will be of the highest standard - as they will have had to jump through many hoops to get their ISTD and equivalence. It no coincidence that 99% of BASI ISTDS choose to work in France - as this is one of the few countries in the world where a ski instructor can have a full time career that will support a family / mortgage / pension etc.
People should consider both sides of the arguement before ranting. The French are right to complain about UK tour ops using unqualified ski hosts. The Austrians have already totally outlawed such practise in St Anton. Whilst the Swiss and Italians are also clamping down on it. In CH, which is outside the EU, you need to register for a work permit with the local authorites that allows you to work - in some cantons this requires a basic insructors qualification if you are going to be formally registered as a ski host.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 21-11-12 11:10; edited 1 time in total
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| davidof wrote: |
| Posidrive wrote: |
| I still fail to see how they can enforce this law when the TO's are not explicitly charging for a service |
They are charging for the service, it is part of the price you pay for the holiday. The rep is also paid for providing the service. Claiming it is a "free service" doesn't wash with the courts. |
I noted this comment... does it not apply anymore?
Taken from the 7th post of this thread...
http://pistehors.com/news/forums/viewthread/126/
'There is another law in France that you can basically have ‘accompanied skiing’ (ie ‘showing a guest around’ the resort) ONLY if that comes as part of the purchased package. I believe that Simon Butler argued his holidays fit into that catagory. But actual instruction should not be given in such a case as the accompanying party would not be ‘qualified’ under law to give instruction. '
If true... then i can't see how the ESF have a leg to stand on.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Haggis_Trap,
My understanding is that although they go to great lengths to make it appear otherwise, the ESF is not quite the ony game in town. Can't any ski school that meets the requirements can take on stagieres (as, I believe ESI do)? The ESF just do their damndest to maintain their closed shop.
I will leave the audience to speculate as to why this might be. One could draw illumination parallels between them and other well known "not-for-profit" organisations.
Aren't Diplomes awarded by ENSA (who have a link to ESI on their site).
In Geneva, in my experience, an EU national is almost if not always automatically given a mid term resident's/work permit as long as they can prove that they can support themselves. Other cantons may vary but I think this is a Federal/EU thing.
(Edited to be less dogmatic )
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 21-11-12 13:21; edited 1 time in total
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FAQ
. . . for those instructors 
. It's not good for the majority part-time instructors in this country and the bulk of BASI membership. It's not good for the paying public either wherever their origin as it is aimed at keeping prices and wages high. This is what the level of skiing demanded by the Euro Pro/FEMPS cartel achieves.
