 Poster: A snowHead
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^
I've search and found a PDF
MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING ESTABLISHING A PILOT PROJECT FOR A PROFESSION AL
CARD TO BE ISSUED TO SKI INSTRUCTORS IN THE EUROPEAN UNION.
This has signatories including the British Government and BASI, France, Italy, Austria etc and it includes details of the Eurotest. I don't think this has legal force but I suspect a court would find it persuasive as to the requirements being "objectively justified and proportionate". (My personal opinion is that the Eurotest is protectionist nonsense on stilts. However I think a court would find it hard to go against apparent agreement by national governments and stakeholders.)
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 10-11-13 12:47; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Nice posts dogwatch, I suspect you're coming at this with more professional competence than most of us earnest amateurs! So if I understand correctly, although the EU laws might have been interpreted more fairly regarding instruction, the deal done between the stakeholders (sweetened for BASI by some generous "complimentary" equivalences for our "representatives") defines the interpretation in perpetuity.
It looks to me then (back to amateur hour!) as if a challenge to the hosting clamp-down on the basis of "justified and proportional" regulation, if upheld, will likely lead to another similar deal. Firstly france would acknowledge the existence of Ski Hosting as a "profession"; then (with the support of the other Alpine Nations) magically obtain a derogation of the basis of unusual safety risks in the high Alps (irrespective of the in-bounds blue-run nature of the job); then presumably all the EU Ministries, National Tourism Institutes, National Instructor bodies, TOs et al will get together for a lengthy beano to thrash out a deal. Whether protectionism and self-interest of the individuals involved would rear its ugly head in the negotiations remains to be seen.
The end result? Probably a hybrid qualification of a long and expensive tour-guide course covering lots of local (read french if you want to work in france) history and politics, a test of fluency in local language (read french if you want to work in france), a test of basic knowledge of one or two other languages, and pass of a ski test at say around BASI 2 level (without the teaching elements). There will be no requirement for a sense of humour or being able to strike up a rapport with your average british punter. You would obviously have to be affiliated (and paying your subs) to your national body, and registered with the local Sports Ministry and paying local taxes out of you minimum-wage income.
Whether any brits would think it worth jumping through the hoops, or whether any brit holidaymakers would want to ski with the "french tour-guide who can ski a bit" who would be a shoe-in for the license, is debatable. Whether it's even worth pursuing the argument at huge expense for such a flawed outcome depends on how much business the french hoteliers and british TO's think this is going to cost them - my guess is not enough. So no net winners (other than the lawyers etc if it goes ahead) and nearly everyone a net looser. Well done ESF.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks, however I'm not a lawyer. I am mid-way through an OU law degree, have studied EU law & I passed the exam! That's as far as any expertise goes.
There is case law where the ECJ has struck down national regulations on recognition of qualifications as protectionist in effect. So it can happen. But in general, EU Directives consist of general principles which are then interpreted through national law and the courts. If member governments and professional bodies are all saying the Eurotest is "justified and proportional", it's hard to imagine a court finding otherwise. As far as British public law is concerned, that principle is described as "Wednesbury unreasonableness" i.e. that a government decision has to be not just wrong but completely and obviously wrong to be set aside on that basis alone. AFAIK there's no similar doctrine explicit in EU law but I think the same reasoning would apply.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| dogwatch wrote: |
^
I've search and found a PDF
MEMORANDUM OF UNDERSTANDING ESTABLISHING A PILOT PROJECT FOR A PROFESSION AL
CARD TO BE ISSUED TO SKI INSTRUCTORS IN THE EUROPEAN UNION.
This has signatories including the British Government and BASI, France, Italy, Austria etc and it includes details of the Eurotest. I don't think this has legal force but I suspect a court would find it persuasive as to the requirements being "objectively justified and proportionate". (My personal opinion is that the Eurotest is protectionist nonsense on stilts. However I think a court would find it hard to go against apparent agreement by national governments and stakeholders.) |
This is not EU Law as it has not been ratified by enough governments.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Correct, it's not law. I'm arguing that a court would find it persuasive.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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dogwatch
I am no Lawyer, or training to be one, but I believe this Judgement delivered in 2009 says any agreement between associations is irrelevant;
| Quote: |
Both the withdrawal of BASI’s complaint and the Brussels agreement are irrelevant to the
Court’s ruling in the present proceedings. The provisions of national law which form the basis of the
Commission’s action remain unchanged and, as the Commission correctly notes, an agreement
between various skiing associations has no effect on the national legislation at issue |
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This Judgement was made by the 'Commission of the European Communities' so I believe a lower court would have to follow it?
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^
Case C‑200/08 Commission of the European Communities v French Republic which is http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document_print.jsf;jsessionid=9ea7d0f130d5258aeec078b742ef977ebbcab3fa488d.e34KaxiLc3eQc40LaxqMbN4OahmQe0?doclang=EN&text=&pageIndex=0&part=1&mode=DOC&docid=72767&occ=first&dir=&cid=3642303
That dealt with Snowboard instructors who had not passed the skiing Eurotest and revolved around the question of whether snowboard instructional qualifications may stand alone, distinct from ski instructor qualifications. It was found that they may. The ruling has nothing to do the Eurotest as applied to skiing instructors. The extract you quote is a comment on the case in hand, not a general principal.
It's not particularly relevant but FWIW, the Commission didn't make the judgement; it brought the case. The Commission is an administrative body, not a judicial one. EU law does not have a binding system of legal precedent in the same way as that of England and Wales but even in the English system, precedent applies to questions of law, not questions of fact.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 10-11-13 14:24; edited 1 time in total
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Wouldn't it be funny if foreign snowboard instructors were found to be legal to ski-host! (since no teaching involved and their right to lead a group on the mountain is established) 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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dogwatch, thanks for the above link. I'd say in the current situation, paragraphs 1 to 12 cover what's happening here, only with ski host exchanged where it currently says snowboard.
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Paragraph 18 stood out to me. Many informed (some would say disgruntled) people suspect that the BASI leadership of the day sold it's skiing members down the river to appease the ESF, it appears they may have later tried to do it to their boarding members too  . Those "complimentary" equivalences must have some kevlar strings attached....
Do BASI now offer a straight snowboarding qualification, or do people go elsewhere? And are the original 40 still the only british-qualified snowboard instructors recognised in france, or did that court case open it up to those coming later?
[btw, for clarification, I have no problem with the group who got a bye on the equivalence for being fully qualified before the goalposts were moved. It's the comps. to negotiating delegates that are a bit whiffy.]
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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BASI website seems pretty unclear on it:
| Quote: |
| Holders of the BASI Snowboard Level 3 ISIA qualification who are high level performers will have the opportunity to upgrade their qualification to the Multidiscipline ISTD Qualification and may be considered on a case by case basis for Right of Establishment as a Snowsport Teacher in France. |
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Several (around 5) snowboarders have now completed BASI Level 4 Snowboard and have been given Right of Establishment. Their Carte Pros say Snowboard Only though were as the original 40 odd snowboarders do not have this on their Carte Pros.
For Level 4 Snowboard they did not have to pass the Eurotest but did have to get FIS Boardercross points.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Do BASI now offer a straight snowboarding qualification, or do people go elsewhere? And are the original 40 still the only british-qualified snowboard instructors recognised in france, or did that court case open it up to those coming later?
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There is a straight Snowboarding qualification offered by BASI and it is recognised, at the top level, in France. As snowrider says, a few people have qualified via this route in addition to the original 40 or so.
There are quite a few people who are "there or thereabouts" too. I think a lot of people (myself included!) had put their snowboard qualification on hold for a while, but, now that the qualification process is clear, are getting on with it again. I'm signed-up to enough courses to get mine finished this winter if I pass everything...
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Tue 12-11-13 18:21; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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stevomcd, good luck with it. You must have cracked through pretty quickly.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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stevomcd, Credit where it's due, it was snowrider who provided the info, I just asked the question. Good luck with the courses!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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shep, edited!
Rob, I did sit my Trainee Instructor (sorry, BASI 1  ) way back in 2006...
Went for my Level 3 Tech in the Spring, didn't pass, but got closer than I really expected, so back for more this year. Should get the other boxes ticked although I will concede to a certain amount of nerves regarding the Boardercross...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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A Sky News report, with words from Nick Morgan of Le Ski (the chief protagonist in this long-running affair) ...
Ski Hosting Ban: British Company Leads Appeal
http://news.sky.com/story/1193769/ski-hosting-ban-british-company-leads-appeal
| Quote: |
| The next step in the legal process will be an appeal heard in a French court in Chambery. |
... and the opposing argument of Simon Atkinson of the ESF.
May the best Yorkshireman (if they're both Yorkshiremen) win.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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This quote from the story "John Willis explained: "Rather than spend all day looking at the map and planning my route, the guide used to be there and I could follow them. I'm totally lost without them."". Is he for real ?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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halfhand, Wouldn't be for me, I reckon that's one of the best parts of going to a new resort, exploring what is has to offer, getting lost and working out where it all fits together.
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On sky news this morning..statement says the only french qualified ski instructors are allowed to guide skiers...le ski are appealing .until then its illegal for T/O to guide ........in france
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Chatted with friends who run chalet in 3V and had an update on local conditions :
(Sorry if this is not new as I have not been following this thread closely)...
Assumedly in response to demand, the ESF and tourist office have been advertising Co'Ski where any skier can meet other skiers and be guided around the area (meeting point La Masse 1, 10am if you fancy it).
However, apparently when someone went recently, on 2 days, no one showed up and finally when they did - it wasn't an ESF instructor but an 'Ambassador' for the ESF ???
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The feeling in our chalet last week was that people missed the guiding. Not so much for the "Where are we" (yes, you maggi) but the chance for singles to meet up with people of similar abilities and approaches to meet up. It might even have affected people's choice of where to ski. I don't think the lift companies will be keen if it reduces bookings and pass sales.
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Mark Warner in L2A appear to have moved all their business from ESF to Evolution 2, I think this includes one day of guiding per week and all their group lessons. Nice one.
The Belgian tour company Ski Friends are still guiding (with a bit of teaching too) their customers around the resort. They are utter crap too, both skiing and managing their groups.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Chris Bish, I use to enjoy it as a way to meet others in the chalet, out on the piste & get to know everyone else better.
Certainly when our son was younger, the chalet owner use to ensure kids were included and would get them in the odd little ski games.
Although in the first years it was a great way to get to know some runs & restuarants, even if it was to avoid them in future !!
I think it is great for newbies to skiing or skiers new to resorts / ski area, regardless of experience.
Perhaps we were / have been lucky with the chalets we have been to, but we miss it.
Friends, who run a chalet, are still asked about guiding from new clients and the negative answer is always met with dissappointment.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| noisey wrote: |
Chris Bish, I use to enjoy it as a way to meet others in the chalet, out on the piste & get to know everyone else better.
Certainly when our son was younger, the chalet owner use to ensure kids were included and would get them in the odd little ski games.
Although in the first years it was a great way to get to know some runs & restuarants, even if it was to avoid them in future !!
I think it is great for newbies to skiing or skiers new to resorts / ski area, regardless of experience.
Perhaps we were / have been lucky with the chalets we have been to, but we miss it.
Friends, who run a chalet, are still asked about guiding from new clients and the negative answer is always met with dissappointment. |
How can that possibly work? Beginners belong with fully qualified instructors, not skiing hosts.
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| Quote: |
Beginners belong with fully qualified instructors, not skiing hosts.
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Certainly in the days I stayed in chalets (and enjoyed the guiding service) there was no question of beginners being included - you had to be able to ski a blue run at a sensible sort of speed.
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You know it makes sense.
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PJSki, why, should "newbies" be imprisoned within lessons all day long ?
At what point should they be allowed out with others then ?
Perhaps we were lucky with the chalet host then, as for the afternoons I was out (as in morning lessons), I don't believe I was taken outside my limits, as they were at that point.
Perhaps not all guides are / were that good, ........
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| noisey wrote: |
PJSki, why, should "newbies" be imprisoned within lessons all day long ?
At what point should they be allowed out with others then ?
Perhaps we were lucky with the chalet host then, as for the afternoons I was out (as in morning lessons), I don't believe I was taken outside my limits, as they were at that point.
Perhaps not all guides are / were that good, ........ |
What's your definition of a 'newbie'? Any chalet host who takes beginners onto the slopes is, quite frankly, a complete moron.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| why, should "newbies" be imprisoned within lessons all day long ? At what point should they be allowed out with others then ? |
As pam w said
| Quote: |
| there was no question of beginners being included - you had to be able to ski a blue run at a sensible sort of speed. |
That's always been the case whenever I've been with a ski host and I believe it's the level you need to be at in order to be allowed to ski with a mountain host in Whistler. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect skiers to be at a certain standard.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I thought most TO guides want you to be confident on reds (Crystal do, anyway)...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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A decent guide/host will take guests into account. If there is, for example, a family group who wants everyone to ski together - including youngish kids who might not enjoy anything beyond a blue - then the host should be able to plan a day where that is feasible. On other days they can say "must be able to ski reds" or determine the best routes for those who turn up.
At least, that's what I did.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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noisey, This is a very interesting attitude "Imprisoned with lessons" and probably this attitude alone fully justifies the ban on hosting. Let you be responsible for your beginners' safety if you are so concerned about their "freedom". Mountains (and that includes relatively controlled environment of groomed slopes) are not amusement parks, so lessons is not an imprisonment but a way to contribute to your own and others around you safety.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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never summer, I'm a big fan of lessons, but your logic re hosting defeats me.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| thedrewski wrote: |
A decent guide/host will take guests into account. If there is, for example, a family group who wants everyone to ski together - including youngish kids who might not enjoy anything beyond a blue - then the host should be able to plan a day where that is feasible. On other days they can say "must be able to ski reds" or determine the best routes for those who turn up.
At least, that's what I did. |
sounds like an opportunity for a club to offer such a service on a similar basis...
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laundryman, My logic is that it's a job of qualified people to take around beginners or even intermediates worried about ice/steepness/traffic and moguls on a particular run. But once you are competent enough not too worry about these things you don't need a host at all. "Meeting others" with a help of a ski host is absolutely hilarious argument that I keep coming across on this thread. People can ski but need to have their hands held to talk to other people who stay in their chalet... What precludes people to arrange at dinner to go ski together the next morning and explore the resort is beyond me.
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never summer, I've had some good days out with a ski host, in terrible visibility, when I'd not have wanted to ski alone OR with someone I chatted to at dinner who might not know the mountain any better than I did. I've also acted as an (unpaid....) ski host to people visiting my apartment who don't know the area and are worried about finding themselves somewhere difficult or getting a bit lost and missing the lifts to get back to base. And in Les2Alpes last week, again with some awful vis, I was glad to have Claude B who knew the resort well and was happy to leave the decisions to him.
The ski hosts I remember skiing with did some "cruise the blues" days and some "fast and furious" days. I was happy to send my (very competent) teenagers off with them on the faster days - but I'd have been dubious about leaving them in the hands of some gobshite who could ski a storm after a few too many glasses of the free plonk. And I could ski myself with guests I'd met on the easier days, and whose skiing ambitions matched my own. I didn't find any of that "absolutely hilarious", it all seemed rather helpful and enjoyable.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think the difference between someone showing you around in their own time for free and someone doing it as part of a job has been discussed before. Poor host could be in trouble if one of your teenagers injured himself which is not fair on someone earning just enough to pay for his beer on his day off and generally working for the sake of experience rather than career. Again during dinner if you can spot a gobshite I am sure you can also spot people you might be OK to ski with the next day and share the responsibility for your choices instead of shifting it onto someone not qualified and definitely not paid enough to take it.
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| pam w wrote: |
never summer, I've had some good days out with a ski host, in terrible visibility, when I'd not have wanted to ski alone OR with someone I chatted to at dinner who might not know the mountain any better than I did. I've also acted as an (unpaid....) ski host to people visiting my apartment who don't know the area and are worried about finding themselves somewhere difficult or getting a bit lost and missing the lifts to get back to base. And in Les2Alpes last week, again with some awful vis, I was glad to have Claude B who knew the resort well and was happy to leave the decisions to him.
The ski hosts I remember skiing with did some "cruise the blues" days and some "fast and furious" days. I was happy to send my (very competent) teenagers off with them on the faster days - but I'd have been dubious about leaving them in the hands of some gobshite who could ski a storm after a few too many glasses of the free plonk. And I could ski myself with guests I'd met on the easier days, and whose skiing ambitions matched my own. I didn't find any of that "absolutely hilarious", it all seemed rather helpful and enjoyable. |
Good post - what I find "absolutely hilarious" is the idea that you need a fully qualified ski instructor to show you around the blue and red runs.
I used to be of the "I can read a piste map, why do I need a ski host?" persuasion. That changed last season when Mrs agw could no longer ski (injuries - there's an old thread about it somewhere) and we weren't going with friends or family that year. We ended up in the Dolomites with Collett's so that she could go off snowshoeing with one group and I could go skiing with another.
Collett's want you to be confident on red runs and their hosts seem pretty good at judging the pace of a group so no-one feels they're holding the others up.
Most days they had two ski itineraries - one group being a bit faster than the other (in the Dolomites "itinerary" is not hyperbole - Sella Ronda, 5 Torri+Hidden Valley, Marmolada etc are respectable distances, especially if you're starting in Badia).
The ski hosts had a little speech they did at the start of each day "We are not qualified guides, we all have a duty of care to each other etc" which seemed fair enough. What the hosts and the advertised itineraries do is provide a focus for the day so that like-minded skiers (or walkers) of broadly similar abilities can get as much as possible out of their holiday. It works for us - we had another great holiday earlier this month.
After six straight years skiing in France prior to 2013 I'm afraid the French have lost our custom for now - and the hosting issue is a major factor.
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FAQ
