 Poster: A snowHead
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Edit to above, I have never seen a printed brochure, my holiday was booked via their website.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Historical question - Club Med operates lessons/guiding provided by ESF staff. Does anyone know whether Club Med used to run its own Club Med guiding service, and did this get stamped on by local authorities/ESF so that Club Med had to go with ESF?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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dobby, as far as I can recall, (1988), ClubMed have always had their "own" complement of ESF bods.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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so, watch out, all you jeunes gens dépourvus de diplôme 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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under a new name, yes I think you're right as far as Avoriaz is concerned, but I think it was a new agreement then and I vaguely remember stories of ESF argy-bargy (our buddy Pomme was still guiding for Blue Sky in 85 and 86 before his move to Club Med and I think he was the first). Interestingly the document davidof, links to shows Club Med running their own operation in Alpe-d'Huez as late as 95 so it would appear each club was free to make it's own arrangements.
dobby, sorry my memory of those seasons is somewhat addled! If you don't mind me being nosey, why do you ask?
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shep, purely out of interest.
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davidof, Club Med ran it's own staff but where all holders of the full French Qualification rather like Evolution 2
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
| "If staff offer hosting in a private capacity, without payment, it will be just like someone skiing with their mates and showing them around," added Pettifer."The problem is that they still need to have insurance, which is why we have put a package together." |
That's very shaky ground I think. If the TO was to be seen to be paying for, or even encouraging their staff to take up this policy so they can 'ski with mates' on their days off, then I can imagine they would be under VERY close scrutiny.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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and you don't need special insurance to "ski with your mates".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'd say 'ski insurance expert' Michael Pettifer is merely trying to sell more insurance. Since when was I obliged to have insurance in order to ski with another human being? Or even several of them?
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As a resident you likely have a sort of civil liability protection rolled into your home or car insurance, but would the average worker on a watered-down corporate-bought policy?
If for example, one of your group sets off an avalanche you as leader might be prosecuted for endangering the lives of others. Worth having some legal cover at least, though that's not to say whatever he is pushing above would be any good.
More on ski slope responsibility: http://www.dossierfamilial.com/famille/droit-demarche/accident-de-ski-qui-est-responsable,809
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Since when was I obliged to have insurance in order to ski with another human being? Or even several of them?
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since you were employed to do so and your employer - or you - likely to get sued if something goes wrong. It's pretty normal for instructors/guides in any kind of sport to have insurance - for example I am doing a sailing course shortly and for insurance reasons I will use a Club boat, not my own. And the instructor will be insured. A friend of mine was sued after an accident where a child lost an eye - he was running an exemplary session and the claim got nowhere, but it's not a fanciful scenario. The fact that they are "ski hosts" not instructors wouldn't stop someone trying to sue, I guess.
Indeed, isn't it normal for all kinds of employees to have insurance - you see notices in work places all the time. As mentioned above.
If nobody is paying you, whether in cash or in kind, and you are just on holiday with your mates, that's completely different but not what's at issue here.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Silly Lizzard
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
| If nobody is paying you, whether in cash or in kind, and you are just on holiday with your mates, that's completely different ... |
If you are leading your mates around and you lead them into trouble and one of them gets injured because of that, then there is nothing to stop them suing you. So, no, it's not completely different. Whether paid or not the de facto leader can be held responsible both civilly and criminally.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Bode Swiller, and that concept is applied a lot more in France than in hthe UK.
The link I posted above is very informative with references to relevant laws. I don't know what Google translate makes of it but if I have time later I'll translate it for reference here.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bode Swiller, indeedy.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| feef wrote: |
| Quote: |
| "If staff offer hosting in a private capacity, without payment, it will be just like someone skiing with their mates and showing them around," added Pettifer."The problem is that they still need to have insurance, which is why we have put a package together." |
That's very shaky ground I think. If the TO was to be seen to be paying for, or even encouraging their staff to take up this policy so they can 'ski with mates' on their days off, then I can imagine they would be under VERY close scrutiny. |
What he is suggesting puts TOs and their staff onto very shaky ground. I would imagine that the courts would see an employee being asked to do something on their day off to be part of their duties and it would be seen as a clear attempt to circumvent the law - which would be treated much more harshly in that case. A good parallel with the way the French, and other continentals, treat 'hire and reward' for driving.
In the UK the definition is comparatively relaxed and people who passed their driving test pre -97 can use grandfather rights to drive certain vehicles (eg an 11 seat minibus) as long as it not for 'hire and reward'. So sports clubs and universities often use older volunteer car drivers in the UK to drive their minibuses. The French definition is so stringent that effectively 'hire and reward' covers pretty much any use - and I imagine the same would apply to their definition here of asking someone to do something on their day off.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Let's all launch the Common Sense application here. TOs are not going to tell their employees that they have to offer ski hosting on their days off, because then people would not have any days off and this would cause a bigger problem than it solves. The furthest they're going to go is to tell staff they may to ski with guests if they want to, and point out that this could well net them a load more tips and a free lunch. They aren't going to need any more insurance for that than they would for skiing with anyone else.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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That reminds me. I must get my lizzard insured
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| The furthest they're going to go is to tell staff they may to ski with guests if they want to, and point out that this could well net them a load more tips and a free lunch. They aren't going to need any more insurance for that than they would for skiing with anyone else. |
So, imagine the scene... guest gets injured and thinks "where there's blame, there's a claim" and off they go to see their no-win no-fee lawyer who sues the tour op and the staff member. The tour Op's insurer would probably wash their hands of it and the staff member's travel insurer would too.
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Bode Swiller, wouldn't wash with the gendarmes either. Quick piste-side test: "OK Monsieur Chalet Host, just a little test: give me the full names and occupations of your group of 'friends' here."
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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albinomountainbadger, if I were an employee of a tour op that asked me to do this, I'd tell 'em to poke it. I cannot see what's so important about ski hosting anyway.
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Bode Swiller, you might, but most impressionable 18 year olds wouldn't. They already accept terrible, illegal pay and subhuman living conditions, why would they refuse to swap a day of pot-washing for a day of skiing?
Oh I'm assuming they would get a second day off here, not be forced to go skiing with guests on their only day off. Silly assumption, on reflection...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Bode Swiller, .... at which point the TO denies all knowlege, the staff bod says he just went skiing with a load of people and any court with half a brain cell tells the twit to bûgger off.
albinomountainbadger, oh do be sensible. I could barely tell you the first names of most of the people I've been skiing with, let alone anything else about them.
Comedy Goldsmith, that's pet lizard insurance and as such specifically excludes wild Lizzards.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
albinomountainbadger, oh do be sensible. I could barely tell you the first names of most of the people I've been skiing with, let alone anything else about them. |
Wow, they must all fight to sit next to you on the chairlift.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Bode Swiller, .... at which point the TO denies all knowlege, the staff bod says he just went skiing with a load of people and any court with half a brain cell tells the twit to bûgger off. |
Maybe in the reptile world but in the real world it doesn't go like that.
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You know it makes sense.
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Lizzard,
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at which point the TO denies all knowlege, the staff bod says he just went skiing with a load of people and any court with half a brain cell tells the twit to bûgger off.
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You've got to be joking. The likelihood of a French court proceeding in that manner is, I'd have thought, close to zero.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Clearly anyone can be deemed to owe a "duty of care" to others, etc etc etc. I imagine that any of us who have travel insurance have some third party cover. But there is still a world of difference between a group of friends skiing together and somebody working for a TO who is "invited" to go skiing with guests on their day off (and just happens to have 5 days off a week). People who holiday with package companies are often inclined to kick up a big stink about trivial stuff like hot water and the choice of breakfast menus. How much more of a stink for a broken neck?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
| I imagine that any of us who have travel insurance have some third party cover. |
yes, but normally that's for recreational wintersports, not for working on snow. Nobody is going to believe this "skiing with the guests on my day off" malarkey.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Bode Swiller, so I can no longer ski with whoever I please in my own free time? Bit unreasonable when the guest in question is a mate who booked specificaly to go skiing with me, don't you think?
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You've got to be joking. The likelihood of a French court proceeding in that manner is, I'd have thought, close to zero.
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Why's that then? Are you suggesting that the French legal system doesn't require any sort of concrete evidence before it convicts people of things? Or that French law prevents people from undertaking sporting activities with anyone they like on their own time? Or what?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Lizzard, because what you've described is an obvious sham.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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It's clearly absurd and would never work, Lizzard is just arguing for the sake of it. Even if the host was convincing, we all know that a punter would spill the beans as soon as a gerndarme turned up and started asking questions.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| It's clearly absurd and would never work, Lizzard is just arguing for the sake of it. Even if the host was convincing, we all know that a punter would spill the beans as soon as a gerndarme turned up and started asking questions. |
We also know that the first thing an injured punter would do with a sniff of a damages claim would be to recall the nudge nudge / wink wink conversations he had with the TO to get around the hosting laws.
And there will have to be nudge nudge / wink wink conversations as unless the TOs market the service in some way, to regain their lost nobby no-mates hosting loving clients, then there is no point them offering it at all.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| You lot are all mad. |
And what's your excuse?
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Lizzard wrote: |
| You lot are all mad. |
And what's your excuse? |
RM for a TO next season allegedly.. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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bertie bassett, God help the clients!
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Article in the Telegraph. Nothing we didn't know already but what made me laugh is the comment at the bottom.
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| If ESF says that ski hosting (which is quintessentially, "follow me round the mountain") deprives them of earnings, it is tantamount to ESF saying their instruction amounts to no more than, "follow me around the mountain"!! |
If the cap fits ....
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FAQ
