ESF take UK tour ops to court over alleged illegal ski guiding

A snowHead

Does make you think the ESF could be due to lose an awful lot of custom from British TOs this year. If you book ski lessons as part of your holiday through one of the major TOs, it is invariably with ESF, no choice of other ski schools, British or French. Can't see the British TOs continuing with this if they are being taken to court over ski hosting. Anyone know why or how it developed like this?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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After the Lyme Bay drownings I believe legislation to regulate outdoor activity centres was brought in (and the owner of the centre responsible was jailed). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyme_Bay_canoeing_tragedy

Why do folk who go on Package Ski Vacations need a host to show them around or a host (aka psuedo modern day Skibum) who is only going to show them where they will make the most commission really couldnt give a f u c k about any of the clients as the here today gone tomorrow ? Very Happy

If your going to go on the hill it would be better to make use of your time & improve your sliding by hiring an official teacher?

You know it makes sense.

Simple, by accepting that guiding is part of the job description (therefore you are being paid to do it), it is a professional activity in the mountains. These are governed by French law.

Also since conversation along the way will happen and questions will be asked there are -albeit- involuntary, crossovers into teaching all paid for by the tour company i.e. the clients on holiday and the French law applies.

Ski clubs where people are unpaid and school groups and their teachers are different but are still subject to french regulations. A tour operator though is neither.

Once someone has been seen leading a group and exhibiting regular types of behavior they are watched by the local professionals (not just the French)

The ESF were joined onto the case because they would have made the original complaint to the Gendarmes.

If there is a big accident anyone in the ski guides situation risks imprisonment. it a very difficult situation to get happy tourists and tour companies and adherence to the law and as good safety as possible.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

stanton, it's not that they NEED a host, most people are quite capable of reading a piste map. It's just that a lot of people like me are solo travellers or ski separately to family members of different abilities, and don't wish to ski alone - or pay for a private instructor for a week!

On my Austrian ski holidays I'm with a group of friends, so I don't care about ski hosting, but on my others when I'm alone or with my mum it makes my holiday.

A snowHead

Piccadilly,

What you need is an escort agency (male or female). Its all the same your hiring company weather
You pay for it yourself or its included in the package price.

http://www.ski-bunnies.com/bunnies.html

Very Happy

A snowHead

stanton, hmm, I'm not sure the other half would be happy about some muscly hunk escorting me around the slopes! (Can't find any blokes on that site, just birds)

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

stanton,

I would argue that somewhere like the PdS a host is pretty invaluable to at least get an idea of the place.

I find the ESF attitude somewhat hypocritical to the extent that we observed a French (summer) TO who had a pretty big allocation at a Spanish spa hotel. Every morning there were, on offer, jogging guides (I can't believe a qualification even exists to cover this) aqua-aerobics (I sadly can easily believe one exists to cover that) and sundry animations of all descriptions and I would be totally amazed if all of this was bang up to the letter of Spanish law.

When I was hosting we organised, inter alia,

- floodlit night ski racing
- torchlight descents
- curling
- a local-food-fest on the chalet girls night off
- a mountain picnic and barbeque

and generally socialised with the guests

Hosting was just an element of them feeling warmly welcomed and looked after - especially for solo skiers, or skiers in mixed groups who wanted to ski less or more adventurous than their friends/spouses/aged parents.

Anyway, as Pam W mentions, this argument has been playing for ages (at least since 1989 in my memory) in and out of the courts and doesn't look likely to evaporate any time soon.

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Piccadilly, But you don't need a chalet employee if you don't wish to ski alone. What's wrong with other guests? And chalet staff can provide you with all information you might need without doing any actual guiding.... They can even organise a meeting point for you - anything apart from accompanying you on slopes.

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never summer, surely the fact is that some guests like this kind of service. I've been aware of ski guides / hosts (call them what you will) for nearly 30 years, and I'm sure they have been providing a service for a lot longer than that. It might not be necessary but for some guests it is desirable. Or do you think guests on a ski holiday should be banned from having access to such a service?

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under a new name, The point is that in France ski guiding is illegal unless provided by a qualified staff and current practices by French TOs in Spain during sumer season are irrelevant to this, especially that we don't know if they breach any laws. In any case it's between these TOs and Spain.

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Has anyone thought of 'audio guided' skiing?
I went around the site of the Battle of Hastings (a French resort) with one of those, and was quite content not to have some gap year kid leading me around.

After all it is free

I've used chalet guides in the past, including one, in the 3V in early December, who was learning the area himself, and made no bones about that. I've found them useful and enjoyable. The ones I've skied with have been good skiers and sensible. One lad lent his ski to a guest who had broken one and skied back on one ski, carrying the broken one.

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Comedy Goldsmith, what a great idea for an app. It could use the in-built GPS and you could set it to e.g. avoid black runs. (Welcome back, BTW).

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Bode Swiller, And your point is?

Sorry, now I get it! Embarassed

You know it makes sense.

Let's make this clear whether you like the colour red or not the problem is not the ESF they have not "contrived" to make ski guiding / hosting illegal. Since code Napoleon was written almost all activities in France are covered by french legislation. So far as paid activities in skiing go it is very simple.

When you are being paid to be on the snow in charge of other people you have to have appropriate qualifications. Ski guides are both paid and in charge of other people as defined under French law. (British law and signed waivers are irrelevant in France as they only apply in Britain). The only relevant qualifications under french law are Ski Instructor or Mountain Guide. This law has existed since skiing became popular as an industry and the original reason was to keep the sport safe.

Yes tourist skiing has evolved since then, I have used a ski guide / host just to get my bearings quickly when on holiday (not in France), but in the knowledge I was far more qualified than he was. By the way he was an Aussie and did a great job.

The thing is the activity is still against french law.

If the guide was stopped by the sports ministry it would have been clear he was leading or teaching and then asked to present proper documentation.

If he was stopped by the Gendarmes as a result of a complaint same procedure.

The missing bit in the whole argument is this:

Ski guide / hosts are a purely British invention probably started in the days when SCGB had "guides" in a resort for their members unpaid, lodged by a local hotel and everything was comfortable and everyone knew who did what. That was the amateur club world and it still exists and ski clubs in France do similar.

British tour companies jumped on the bandwagon and used their "guides" to offer more within their holiday to sell more holidays - it worked. Of course either ignorant of or ignoring french law they paid the guides very low wages and profited commercially.

For a while they got away with it. BUT It is still an activity that is against the law.

So why don't all the tour operators get together to try and change French law? Either they think they can't OR they realise if they do they will have to pay much more money for better qualified staff.

Knocking the ESF doesn't work here since the British tour operators know the law they know "guiding" is a professional activity and they want their profit above all else. Claiming customers like the service is not good enough railing against the ESF is not good enough it's all about tour operators wanting their pound of flesh.

To knock the locals crying by jingo they're out to get is just the tour operators way of getting people on their side - for more profit!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Just popping in to put in my two cents! If it does pan out that Ski Hosting call it what you will is clamped down on will I have to remove my nice SnowShepherd Logo off the back of my jacket and hoody, as it may imply that I am showing some one around or even god forbid helping customers with new equipment.

I guess the same thing may apply to rob@rar, and his operation if things get out of hand.

Oh and nice to see my school nick name on here Very Happy

shep,

A snowHead

Yes but this forum is about what happens in France and activities on an American mountain are by and large governed by the lift company that owns or leases the land, anyone independent and earning money is strictly controlled by removing their pass and prosecuting them. The American lift companies - like British tour companies think might is right.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I have ***ummm**** no comment to make on this. Embarassed

Except that I was chatting to some friends in the ESF who were being paid (!) to go over to London and take part in the flash-mob thing and reckon it is now not going to happen as they're a bit afraid of counter-protests & bad publicity.

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If it is indeed so clearly illegal, why have they got away with it for so long? The ESF have never been shrinking violets in defending their privileges. Has a gentleman's agreement broken down? Like the legality of the FEMPS cartel that results in the requirement for the ET, I suspect it isn't so clear-cut. IIRC the case with butsie was settled wasn't it, rather than be drawn to a disadvantageous conclusion?

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Yes I got the email through yesterday too they would have had a good time but there's always next year as long as Hollande doesn't tax all tourist out of France before then!

To be honest I think British tour companies and very often independent operators do a wonderful job but the ski guiding thing is a no brainer.

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Good (previous) post Saint, that's me told! wink

. I do agree with most of what you say, but a few points remain:

1/ Guiding only allows the TO's to increase profit because (some) clients enjoy it, want it, and are prepared to pay for it. Yes it's about profit, but it's also about enjoying the best ski holiday possible. Whether they would pay the extra if the guide had to be better qualified is impossible to say. I certainly agree guides need to be suitably qualified (but not to instructor level).

2/ In the 30-odd years this issue has existed, the ESF have shown a regular eagerness to enforce the legislation (particularly whenever times are hard). The more positive step of satisfying the demand by offering something similar themselves at a realistic price, or engaging with the TOs to work out a compromise has never happened; even though they (if not the industry they represent) are aware that enforcement is damaging to france's position in the market.

3/ There's nothing wrong with the ESF legitimately lobbying the law-makers in their members' interests, that's what an association is for. But for them to:
- back anti-competative legislation (even if it does predate current disputes)
- get away with effectively operating a closed-shop during the decade-long "capa" era
- eventually (and only under EU duress) be allowed to impose the "level playing field" of the current EuroTest (with an arrangement that has little to do with quality teaching and lots to do with jobs-for-the-boys)
- somehow continue to block the british-run ski-schools from becoming training-centres and hence allowed to employ stagieres and grow their businesses
all frankly stinks of something more sinister...

Hi livetoski, thanks for the welcome! Some might say you might not necessarily want to be associated with this shep, but if any publicity's good publicity.... Blush

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Except, Saint, that I think you might have missed a few of the nuances in the history.

I have no idea (and it's so deeply pre internet that I doubt I can easily find out) but I actually suspect that the origins of the ski guiding thing were simply the chalet host or local rep guiding with his/her clients. I really don't think it was the brainchild of a large TO with $$ signs in his greedy eyes.

In 1989 I wasn't well paid at all, but if you consider all costs, my modest salary, accommodation for a season, food and drink (!) for a season, lift pass, insurance and equipment hire if required - it's not a cost less exercise for the TO.

Anyway, that's mostly irrelevant except to show that there is at least 30+ of precedent whereby the French have at least mostly cast a blind eye over the entire procedure - NB in my first seasons the local Union (sorry, meant E) SF would invite the TO owners. reps and guides to a very, very fine and drunken dinner evening pre-season to encourage ESF lesson referrals.

Following Shep's comments, where the Union de SF has been known to kick up a fuss has been strongly correlated with economic hard times and fewer expected bookings for themselves.

Also (and correct me if I am wrong on my history please Shep), in the past certain local Unions have seen fit to employ foreigners and allow them to wear the mythical red uniform (or even people hailing from different départements. mon dieu!) when it suited them, partially or entirely against the code civile.

After all it is free

Just sayin'

http://pistehors.com/news/forums/viewthread/126/P15/#419

Funny how Saint always pops up. Protecting interests much? wink

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shep, Ah, that makes perfect sense, thanks.

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ESF take UK tour ops to court over alleged illegal ski guiding

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