 Poster: A snowHead
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agw, they have to be qualified, but I guess there is more than one relevant qualification. Much earlier in this thread when people were fantasizing about some british-born BASI style new qualification I asked what kind of qualification the French school teachers who take regular "PE lessons" on the slopes have. I don't think there were any responses. I have no idea myself, but having seen quite a lot of groups of kids, both school kids and "youth groups" being led by people who look perfectly competent but absolutely not "ski instructor" material, there must be some sort of stificate.
My son in law has a "mountain leadership" qualification of some kind (he's a PE teacher) but it's just a basic one - the sort of thing without which nobody would "professionally" lead a group even in the Brecon Beacons in reasonable conditions. French teachers probably have some kind of ski equivalent.
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if you have evidence that pisteurs etc* are doing this sort of job
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no, none at all, just pointing out that everyone who works for the resorts seems to be "qualified" in some way, so any resort offering hosting/guiding services is likely to be using someone qualified to do so! French outdoor activities are like that.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I thought the outcome of the recent Le Ski case was that ski hosts had to be qualified instructors or guides
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Qualified if they were in receipt of payment for their guiding was the judgment.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| Arctic Roll, so are these 'hosts' provided by the domain working for free? |
no idea: just telling it as I see it 
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Spoke to one of the pisteurs (English, well Geordie anyway) in L2A a couple of days ago. Ski Friends (Belgian) are still "guiding" although he hasn't seen MW or Crystal doing so. However in his view it's being left to the discretion of the local ESF director and in L2A he's pretty chilled about it. Likely that MW and Crystal have just stopped in France in all resorts anyway.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ski Miquel were still hosting in Serre Chevalier last week.
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Just to clear up the questions regarding what is happening in Les Arcs right now.
The Les Arcs tourist office have and are still organising 'accompanied skiing' by two Pisteurs and a member of the Tourist Office Staff (to provide different languages) to take people around the resort on a couple of day a week (during high season) but also at other times to show visitors how the 'on snow' facilities are managed and safety is controlled. Members of the public must book a place on these tours in advance, but they are free. In the light of the recent accident (still being investigated by the local authorities, so I will not make any comments about it) this is quite a good way I would think of the resort showing people that it is a 'safe' place to come and ski.
Whether this kind of leading around the resort conflicts with the recent court judgement I have know idea and I shall not enter that debate. If anyone is coming to Les Arcs or already here and they want to try one of these tours, contact the ski resort lift office, tourist office or ask at one of the piste huts on the mountain for more info.
Regarding the SCGB. They were controlled and the papers were checked. Nobody was arrested, but all members names and personal details were taken by the police. Quite intimidating if you saw the size of the Gendarmes that stopped them. However they were then allowed to continue on there activities that day. The leader did attend the police station later in the week to present papers extra, but no further action has been taken. They are continuing to lead people around the resort presently under the umbrella of being a 'ski club' and according to the SCGB, not subject to the recent court case decision. I shall leave you all to debate the last point.
Hope that clears up the questions that have been asked about what has been going on in Les Arcs recently.
If you are interested in reading about the up-to-date daily details of Les Arcs either go to the Les Arcs season thread on snowheads
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=2275817#2275817
or my Les Arcs Winter page on facebook.
https://www.facebook.com/LesArcsWinter
On the point regarding French school teachers etc. in France leading ski groups around the mountain. Yes, there is a certificate (licence) they should hold. My friend has one. I am not exactly sure of the details, but if anyone wants to find out. You can contact the 'Service de Sport' in most French resorts or the 'government office for young people' in the region you want to visit and they could let you have the details. I do know that it is not a ski instructor qualification, just a certificate (licence) to lead young people skiing on the mountains from there own school/club etc and your organisation must pay for it.
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The Belgians were out in force today, blatantly breaking the law - saw at least three of their guiding groups.
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Lizzard, And from what I've seen of them in the past some are poor skiers and don't manage their groups well at all.
Anyway judging by how many Belgian plate cars there are on the road today ther are none left in the Alps.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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French don't like the Belgians either, so they'll get theirs too.
With my run in with Gendarmerie in France, it was a Sunday morning, first day of trade show, 8 am. On the road all the exhibitors take to go round the backside of the hall, stood the Gendarmerie pulling over every car with foreign plates. They found something wrong with me / my car, had to pay 200 EUR on the spot, and be called nasty names in French. I had to get of my car and walk a kilometer to fetch money from the money machine before I could go further. (Mind you, this was the first day of the trade show, and it was taking so much time, that I wasn't even there when the show opened, after having paid 25,000 EUR for my stand at said exhibition, and not a large stand either).
Anyhow, they also stopped a competitor of mine, Belgian. I later asked her, why she got pulled over, and she said, they told her that he didn't like way Belgians spoke French, and that's why they pulled her over.
So, not to fret, I'm sure they will catch up to the Belgians, they are not favored by the French. They will be indiscriminate in this preposterous behavior.
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| HeidiAmsterdam wrote: |
| They found something wrong with me / my car, had to pay 200 EUR on the spot, and be called nasty names in French. |
What did they call you?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Well, honestly my French isn't too good.
Unbeknownst to the them, I had some French people in my car, and they wouldn't tell me what they said, but they said it wasn't nice.
One thing I did gather was, that I was a F-ing liar that I did not speak French, because I wouldn't spend that kind of money to have a stand at French trade show without being able to speak French.
Just because I always organized French people, that weren't necessarily my employees to help me run the stand...
I complained to the exhibition organization, and they just shrugged their shoulders. The French people who helped work the stand were sympathetic, and being decent people, they were thoroughly embarrassed.
I was really cross for having spent 25,000 for a piece of real estate 50 meters square, without carpet or electricity, to only be harassed by local police. The only people on that road on a Sunday morning at 8 am, were exhibitors, and it was EVERY non French car that got pulled over.
There are many French people that don't want anyone besides French people in their country, even if it has a positive economical benefit for them.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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HeidiAmsterdam, gosh, that doesn't sound nice at all. At least you had some nice French people in your car and helping on your stand. I think you should vote with your feet and go elsewhere because you have obviously had a truly horrible time in France (I know you have mentioned Stalin when talking about this) and whilst you've obviously also had some good times and met some nice people, you sound so angry it doesn't seem worth it.
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Well, that was the last time I went to that show. I just got sick of paying a lot of money to get treated like crap, if that sounds familiar.
I'm pretty offended with these last antics, even though I'm not personally affected. I just find it so offensive.
I booked Verbier for Christmas, and likely I will book L4V for Feb, or Jungfrau region.
The food and atmosphere is less appealing to my preferences, normally I'd go to Megeve in Feb, but after this, I, indeed feel like, out of a matter of principle, I don't want to give them my business.
But yep, after that trade show incident, I felt like I was living under the gestapo... a throwback to a time I had only read about in history books.
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You know it makes sense.
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| pam w wrote: |
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The only thing that troubles me is that a member of the gendarmerie apparently stopped the Leader with his member
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that gendarme must have had an impressive member... |
*snigger*
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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HeidiAmsterdam, if you give people uniforms and minor powers they will behave like @rseholes. It's hardly unique to the French.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| HeidiAmsterdam wrote: |
| a throwback to a time I had only read about in history books. |
Two words:
Homeland Security
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| HeidiAmsterdam, if you give people uniforms and minor powers they will behave like @rseholes. It's hardly unique to the French. |
True statement. With an negative exponential correlation with ones level of education, when plotted on a standard bell curve.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Just to try and put this in perspective as some of the stuff I have seen doing the rounds is laughable. I am just shy of my ISIA have a couple of modules to attempt and hopefully I will be up to the standard.
I have no intention or desire to teach in France nor am I to pushed on completing my full ISTD. Although I would love to get the Eurotest as I savour a challenge and will attempt the ISTD mountain safety module for their educational value.
With an ISIA qualification (Level 3) You can teach anywhere in the world pretty much unrestricted (Guiding and some circumstances excluded) with the exceptions of France where you require an ISTD or to be a Stagiere limited to 3 years (I think), & Italy which requires a ISTD but will allow L2 and ISIA to teach for 3 weeks a year.
So the French and Italians have added an extra layer to the requirement to teach. At a conservative estimate 85% of the people who are looking for ski lessons in Europe would be more than satisfactorily catered for by an ISIA instructor, the added value of the Eurotest is beyond my comprehension as to how it will aid or benefit the final customer. Few first week skiers or 8-10 week skiers will in need of the skills the instructor will have gained passing the Eurotest.
At a higher end client requirement yes I can see the value or if the instructor has a desire to peruse a race based aspect to their career.
The reason the French and the Italians insist on the extra level is not for safety it is for protectionism. Any other argument is irrelevant. Yes they are their mountains and the only real solution is not in the courts but with the ISIA and other ski bodies to agree on a standard and roll it out.
To make it even better a number of native UK ISTD have been very vocal on social media about how they are not happy about ISIA teaching in France, one of whom I know for sure received an exemption from their Eurotest as part of the grandfathering process when it was introduced and I suspect one or two more so what is their reason? Well it is the same as above Protectionism especially from those those are slightly older and cannot keep up with the up and coming competition they seem to be making the most noise.
So it is not a French V British thing, there are plenty of other ski instructors from multiple nations who can not teach in France with their qualification but are deemed perfectly safe by the Swiss, Austrian, USA Canadian and Spanish authorities, so perhaps we could compare ski school accident figures based and see which nation is safer?
The current law in France may be an ass but it is the Law and we all know and understand most of it, if you don’t like it go elsewhere.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| HeidiAmsterdam wrote: |
True statement. With an negative exponential correlation with ones level of education, when plotted on a standard bell curve. |
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Fattes13, agree with pretty much everything you've posted there except your conclusions about it being their mountains and it being the law etc. It's now effectively the EU's mountains and whilst the laws stand and are enforced as such at present, it's far from clear whether they are compatible with EU rules and regulations (one of the reasons FEMPS is urgently trying to modify the laws to fit EU rules or modify EU rules to cover the laws). It's nothing whatsoever to do with the ISIA - they have zero jurisdiction in this. As you say the law in France is an ass, but France is a good place to ski (some would say in spite of the natives), so people quite naturally and reasonably want the law de-assed.
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Find it funny that on this thread the view is that the law must be obeyed even if we don't like it, but on the ski host and minimum wages one failing to respect local laws is excused on the grounds of keeping businesses profitable and the price of holidays down...
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 15-04-13 8:43; edited 1 time in total
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| slikedges wrote: |
| ..... It's now effectively the EU's mountains....... |
I don't think that the Germans have achieved that yet.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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albinomountainbadger, no, the view on this thread is that the law is an ass on ski hosting as well. It was not intended to cover this sort of activity and such a facile activity shouldn't need a qualification (and certainly not the only one that seems to be able to be allocated to it - that of a fully certified instructor requiring years of training and skiing really quickly through a GS course!). It has been understood to be such by the French as well hence their tolerating ski hosting for many many years, until their own economic needs changed and they decided to shake the tree again.
achilles, evidently not completely but that is the spirit of the EU and given we are fully paid up it's what we should expect
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I'd agree that an ISIA level 3 instructor is good enough to teach most intermediate ie most holidays skiers most of the time including myself. A level 4 ISTD including the Eurotest is though inherently through more experience and training a higher standard skier and instructor and certainly beneficial for those wanting to do instructor training, off-piste away from pistes and ski routes and for advanced skiers not just those interested in racing. I agree that argiung the Eurotest increases safety is probably marginally at best but it does denotes a high standard of skiing ability which is necessary to be credible with advanced skiers such at natives in alpine countries.
Having seen tour reps in action then ISTD is overkill but there is an argument for some kind of ski leading qualification.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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TTT, I've recently read a chalet review where a guest complained about the ski host getting to the top of the mountain then asking if anyone had a piste map, as he didn't know where he was going!!! Now I do know the resort, but can't recall if it was the season that the chalet company had to have 3 reps in as many weeks due to injury and then a death of a family member. Replacement rep was drafted in at the very last moment, so perhaps in that case there was some sort of excuse, but on the whole I agree.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Anacdoetally I've had a good day and was entirely safe with reps but we did end up showing one of the reps the best huts and had to help the other down the mountain.
I've also seen reps take holiday makers down an itinerary which to be fair is not particularly clearly marked as such. I would not say it was particularly unsafe but picking my way between the fallen skiers did make the run more interesting.
Forgetting the politics, some kind of ski leader qualification for that resort would seem a sensible compromise from what I've seen.
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UPDATE via Travel Mole* (below)
UK tour operators are continuing to fight the French legal judgement which banned their ski hosting on the slopes, as a result of an action against Le Ski. A top French lawyer has been hired and they are expecting to take the case all the way to the European court of appeal.
http://www.travelmole.com/news_feature.php?news_id=2007208&c=setreg®ion=2
As predicted, a migration of business to alternative ski countries - Italy, Austria and Switzerland - is taking place.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Wed 10-07-13 6:41; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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a migration of business to alternative ski countries - Italy, Austria and Switzerland - is taking place.
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well that would be a good thing, wouldn't it? There are precious few British-run catered chalets in any of those countries and a few more would increase choice in a way which many British skiers would welcome. And if it also reduced the dominance of the British TOs in some of the French resorts that would be a good thing too.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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* no relation to SnowMole, or similarly-named enterprises relating to rodents
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Poster: A snowHead
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PlanetSKI has more on this, in the context of some 2013-4 brochure launches yesterday (Inghams/Ski Total/Esprit) ...
http://www.planetski.eu/news/5119
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 10-07-13 8:30; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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it's rumoured that the final paragraph is the reason why they're fighting the issue on Ski Hosting;
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"We have to fight this decision by the French court otherwise where will it end?" he said. "This time it's ski hosts they are targeting but will it be the chalet staff next?"
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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krakatoa,Thanks for the link, so all eyes on The Crystal report out on Monday
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
UPDATE via Travel Mole* (below)
As predicted, a migration of business to alternative ski countries - Italy, Austria and Switzerland - is taking place. |
By a report quoting lots of interested parties.
I would be amazed to see any evidence at the end of next season of any significant impact of this in French resorts.
Is their worry about 'where will this stop perhaps Chalet hosts next' perhaps related to any nervousness by the TOs over contractual terms, minimum payments etc for chalet staff. Worried perhaps, that the usual 'you get to stay in a ski resort for a season but get paid very little' might actually be a bit shaky if looked at very closely.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
UPDATE via Travel Mole* (below)
As predicted, a migration of business to alternative ski countries - Italy, Austria and Switzerland - is taking place. |
I would be amazed to see any evidence at the end of next season of any significant impact of this in French resorts.
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Interesting point. Admittedly I took the PR-generated piece at face value. Maybe you're right, but I should think this will be a customer-led situation. If the ski hosting has been a significant selling point for holidays in French resorts, then punters may well look at Austria etc. more openly.
It's not clear how fast this legal stuff is moving. I assume we'll see no ski hosting in French resorts for the coming season - anyone have a legal insight into this?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I suspect the "catered chalet" formula is a more significant selling point than ski hosting. I also suspect that if British TOs starting shipping in large numbers of unqualified chalet staff, including ski hosts, working in ways that contravened local employment laws and practices the local competition and authorities in Italy, Austria and Switzerland would also get a tad restive.
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Looking at the Mark Warner 2013/14 brochure they are still making a big selling point of their ski hosting service - quote" ..our ski hosts are available to take you out on the mountain for the day. They'll do the hard work of planning your route - through the best snow and via the shortest lift queues. What's more they'll choose a handy lunch stop and point you in the right direction for a good apres ski location."
However in the essential ski information section further on there is a last sentence in smaller typefont that says "Please note that we cannot guarantee our ski hosting service due to the interpretation of the service by the authorities in the countries in which we operate. Enforcement of unclear legislation may lead us to suspend the service at short notice."
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I was talking to friend at the w/e that's just secured a ski host job for the winter (but he is French) and the company he is working for says they will be using professional ski guides from the resort.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Interesting. I thought the problem was specific to France, and that essentially the position was unchanged from last season. So what's with the "short notice" bit?
Might be interesting to compare how each tour operator working in France words this.
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Alastair Pink I have a MW holiday booked for next year in Tignes. When I booked ski hosting was part of the package, no what if's, even though I knew there was. About 2 weeks after booking I received an email stating ski hosting had been pulled due to the recent court hearing and replaced by what they call social skiing. This is them organising suggested itineries and grouping people of similar abilities and organising a meeting place for lunch, think I could manage that job myself, even for the paltry amount they get paid. They are however still hosting in Italy and Austria, but France is where the majority of their business is.
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FAQ
