 Poster: A snowHead
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skir67,
"BTW shep you don't happen to run the ski school at Cairngorm do you?"
Roflmao
Hee hee heeee
Not giving anything away but afaik, and altho he is a man of many talents, no I don't believe Shep runs any ski schools...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w, just to be clear, in Japan, that is arranged for me, but I still pay quite a lot in rent. It's not part of my remuneration package. In Chile, yes I get all my accom and food paid for, which is great. I would guess that independent instructors in both places make considerably more per hour, but maybe not much more per season, not sure though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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miranda, The French themselves have admitted that French is a dying language, if you're going to learn any language it needs to be English, Mandarin or Spanish. I chose English because I live here. English is the international language of the Air & Sea already, absolutely no point in learning French, considering they have to learn English to communicate with the rest of the World anyway.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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ESFs role: there is a huge misunderstanding about the role of the ESF in this affair.
The ski hosts / leaders were stopped by the inspectors from the French Sports Ministry (DDCS) based in Chambéry. The role of these inspectors is to carry out checks on instructors, mountain guides, etc whose professions are regulated by the French Code de Sport. They are supported in this by the Gendarmerie (usually the section that deals with rescues etc. the Peleton Gendarmerie de Haute Montagne).
The ESF has become what is known as a "Partie Civile" but first and foremost it the DDCS who have stopped Le Ski, amongst others. It is NOT up to the ESF who can instruct, lead, etc skiing (paid / paid in kind) and any change would require a change in the French law enshrined in the Code de Sport.
What I have written is based on extensive experience dealing with the DDCS. There is absolutely no problem with working as a British citizen in France if you approach it in the right way and with the right attitude.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
I chose English because I live here.
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absolutely no point in learning French
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unless you like France, like spending time there, and like being able to communicate with people outside the tourist tracks. Which is a good enough reason! I'm learning Italian at the moment, spoken by fewer people, but they include the other grandparents of my Italian-based grandson, who don't speak English (though they, like me, are trying). I'm just grateful my son didn't decide to get a Chinese girl up the duff......
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
I'm just grateful my son didn't decide to get a Chinese girl up the duff......
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Why Chinese in particular?
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| shep wrote: |
never summer yes missing the point(s) I'm afraid.
- Hosting and teaching are two different things requiring different skills and warranting different rates of remuneration.
- It's not about xenophobia (I think that's what you mean by patriotism); when I was a TO guide in Avoriaz two of the british TOs had french guides, and one a swede. They were very professional, likable, great with the guest, spoke good enough english to have a laugh with the punters, but not qualified instructors.
- It's not about trying to dictate laws to the french. It's not about "french bashing", it's about the problem that the ESF have very cleverly stolen the right of self determination from the french-alpine population themselves. By ruthless lobbying in the corridors of power, the passing of brown envelopes, the president of the ESF being a drinking buddy of the minister for sport, etc. etc. they have conned their compatriots into thinking they're acting in their community's best interests; whereas some of the ESF policies are only about shoring-up the self-interest of their membership at the expense of their ski-industry's international competitiveness and the pockets of their own population.
Unfortunately with no international perspective, lots of the locals believe the hype that only the ESF know what's good for them; and nothing's going to change that until we, as experts in the british ski industry, find a way of circumventing the ESF machine all together and expose the ESFs anti-competative agenda to the french themselves.
rob@rar's idea of the ESF (and hopefully the other schools) policing the "hosting" service is a great one (because that's probably the only way it would be allowed to happen), but they'll never volunteer to do it off their own bats. It will only be pressure from their own business community and authorities that changes anything, and that pressure won't come until we find a way to make them realize they have a problem. |
Thanks for posting this... one of the best posts on this thread and will probably be overlooked...which is a shame.
Your point about how the French perceive a lesson is very valid. Follow my leader with a few tips thrown in... i've seen it so often with the ESF. They have a huge percentage of Dinosaur Instructors... they need to get with the times. No wonder other Ski Schools in French resorts are getting rave reviews by clients.
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pam w, My SiL is Taiwanese, so speaks Mandarin fluently, both their kids go to Taiwan during the summer holidays originally to attend Chinese school, but latterly for work experience in a Chinese business. The earning and employment potential for an English & Mandarin speaker in business is huge. I've only picked up a bit of Mandarin, spoken only, written forget it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Why Chinese in particular?
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because of the essential languages cited by Spyderman, Chinese is the only one I don't think I could begin to get my head round. There are so many Chinese people who speak good English (and often another language as well) that I suspect few of the jobs needing English and Mandarin skills will go to Brits!
It takes years of hard slog to learn Mandarin. It just takes a rather short time to learn enough Italian to have a conversation about how very clever and beautiful our grandson is and graciously accept another glass of vino!
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pam w, Mandarin is insanely difficult to learn, each word pronounced ever so slightly differently has a completely different meaning, that's before you even consider dialects.
There is a huge demand foe English people who can speak Mandarin, far greater than Chinese people who can speak English. Having English as your native tongue with Mandarin as your second language is preferable for Chinese companies operating overseas.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| spud wrote: |
They have a huge percentage of Dinosaur Instructors... they need to get with the times. |
Would you like to elaberate 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| miranda wrote: |
| shep wrote: |
Yes you're right of course miranda, it was a generalisation to make a point. There are of course good instructors at ESF (and bad ones elsewhere), but it generally seems to be in spite of the way the system is set up rather than because of it. There are also great teachers who give bad lessons to the brits because they don't have the language skills. I refused to teach in french when I was there because I knew I would be crap, but they don't have that luxury. So I guess my point is they should focus more on communication and less on the ability to ski gates. |
Ok, but it's a generalisation you've made twice in this thread already and it's unfair on ESF instructors. You are right of course to say that brits have pretty terrible language skills and so often want lessons in English because they can't speak the languages of the countries they visit. Even in the small ski village I'm in, the younger generation of ESF instructors speak English though, so I find it difficult to believe that there are no English-speaking ESF instructors in the big French resorts. The older generation generally do not speak English, and are therefore good for people who want to get twice the value for the money - a session of ski AND French lessons rolled into one.  |
miranda, Hmmm, ok it's unfair on some ESF instructors, and I did correct myself on that point. Rightly or wrongly brits are notoriously bad at learning languages, to a large extent because they don't expect to have to. Unfortunately for the ESF the bulk of their clients in many resorts speak english only, and want an instructor with good if not fluent english. That may be a lot to ask but so is the technical level of the Eurotest, and we're all agreed the required standard should wean-out all but the best.
There's an interesting situation re english speaking instructors in Avoriaz. Prior to the ESF throwing their toys out of the pram and pulling out of ISIA in '89, there was a very successful exchange program running between Avoriaz ESF and the NZSIA. As a result of that there is a dwindling group of middle-aged monitors here with excellent english (and bizarrely the reverse in New Zealand I assume!). However that program (and others like it in other resorts) fell victim to the ESF national body's protectionism, and the number of even the younger guys capable of explaining pelvic tilt or the difference between weight and pressure in english is very very low (one reason why BASS et al do so well).
I have yet to meet any british client happy to treat their expensive ski lesson as a free french lesson, other than those more interested in the instructor than the instruction!
skir67 there are accepted objective tests of language skills, and for the budget spent on running the ET it would be possible to have a ski-instruction specific version created. BASI ESF etc all do a pretty good job these days at assessing technical level and teaching skills, a lot of effort goes into making sure those who should pass at a certain level do. Motivation is definitely harder to measure but I'm sure a few fine mind applied to the job could come up with something pretty consistent, at least within the vagaries of your ET start-number.
Regarding the distinguished director of Cairngorm ski school, he is not I, although I'm honoured if we share a nickname! It would certainly be a funny old world if the holder of that position expressed similar view to mine about certain members of a certain vintage of BASI royalty!
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Spyderman, the son of one of my closest friends is just about to start his third season as a ski instructor in China, having spent a good deal of the summer in Beijing. He's learning Mandarin and I should think that, when he finally decides to stop being a ski-bum, he will be well placed to find some highly worthwhile employment.
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You know it makes sense.
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| marksavoie wrote: |
ESFs role: there is a huge misunderstanding about the role of the ESF in this affair.
The ski hosts / leaders were stopped by the inspectors from the French Sports Ministry (DDCS) based in Chambéry. The role of these inspectors is to carry out checks on instructors, mountain guides, etc whose professions are regulated by the French Code de Sport. They are supported in this by the Gendarmerie (usually the section that deals with rescues etc. the Peleton Gendarmerie de Haute Montagne).
The ESF has become what is known as a "Partie Civile" but first and foremost it the DDCS who have stopped Le Ski, amongst others. It is NOT up to the ESF who can instruct, lead, etc skiing (paid / paid in kind) and any change would require a change in the French law enshrined in the Code de Sport.
What I have written is based on extensive experience dealing with the DDCS. There is absolutely no problem with working as a British citizen in France if you approach it in the right way and with the right attitude. |
^ the most important bit of information posted so far.
Perhaps Planet Ski would like to update their headline ?
However don't let it stop the uniformed anti French xenophobia and all ESF must be dinsoaurs rant's. 
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Sun 18-11-12 22:22; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| shep wrote: |
I have yet to meet any british client happy to treat their expensive ski lesson as a free french lesson, other than those more interested in the instructor than the instruction!
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Well, now you've 'met' me, someone who happens to think that 40 euros for a 90 min one-to-one ski lesson with an experienced instructor, who is also incredibly patient whilst I talk to them in bad French on the uplift, and who helps me improve my language skills at the same time, is a pretty good bargain.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
I have yet to meet any british client happy to treat their expensive ski lesson as a free french lesson, other than those more interested in the instructor than the instruction!
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I have also been happy to treat ski lessons (though they're actually pretty cheap, not expensive) as "free" French lessons. I've also met some very interesting people, including, on a cross-country group ski lesson week last season (80 euros for 6 mornings.....) the wife of a French diplomat who had lived in some fascinating places. she spoke better English than I did French, but the instructor spoke very little English. He was probably a dinosaur. He certainly had a big white beard and a rabbit skin hat (and no, I wasn't more interested in him than in the instruction...). But he could do mean one-footed turns on cross country skis....
He also organised, with his colleagues, a very friendly "apéro" at the end of the course, with local cheese and nibbles and a few drinks.
It's kind of part of being in the French Alps. The considerable time I spend there would be impoverished - beyond measure - if I spoke no French. If I had a place in Austria I'd do the same with German - no question. Even having just O level German can make a useful difference.
Mandarin is indeed fearsome. I used to work on selection panels for, amongst others, the Foreign Office. We selected on the basis of specified competencies, not including language skills. The FCO gave all entrants a test of their aptitude. The really good ones did Mandarin. The really useless ones did French, Italian or Spanish. Mandarin training, including a long period of total immersion, was extremely expensive; they were always delighted if we selected someone who already spoke Mandarin, or at least had done a degree in it (which only gets them started on the learning process).
I have an Australian friend who has been learning Mandarin for some years because she has a Chinese daughter in law (who speaks fluent American, natch). She's a bright woman and has worked hard at it, but reckons she has made very little progress. I think she's hoping the mental effort will ward off senility.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Lots of people here seem supportive of the idea that the ESF should be given a role in all this. This presumes reasonably that the situation will remain grey. I'd expect that if the tour ops are legally forced to stop hosting, that'll be that. Ski hosts will have to be members of the cartel of equivalence holding instructors. Why would the ESF accept anything less? If it remains grey, then it might be that an arrangement with due consideration going to interested parties will have to be come to, the details of which will be on a need to know basis only. And of course if the apparent rule that ski hosts need qualifications is thrown out, then there's no need for a sop.
Spyderman, each of the 300-ish base sounds (consonant vowel or double vowel plus/minus ending) in Mandarin are quite distinct. It's the additional dimension that each base sound will then have up to 4 tones that makes these variations of the base sound sound only slightly different to speakers of non-tonal languages, but still quite distinct to someone who is used to having this dimension determine the identity of a word.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| marksavoie wrote: |
ESFs role: there is a huge misunderstanding about the role of the ESF in this affair.
The ski hosts / leaders were stopped by the inspectors from the French Sports Ministry (DDCS) based in Chambéry. The role of these inspectors is to carry out checks on instructors, mountain guides, etc whose professions are regulated by the French Code de Sport. They are supported in this by the Gendarmerie (usually the section that deals with rescues etc. the Peleton Gendarmerie de Haute Montagne).
The ESF has become what is known as a "Partie Civile" but first and foremost it the DDCS who have stopped Le Ski, amongst others. It is NOT up to the ESF who can instruct, lead, etc skiing (paid / paid in kind) and any change would require a change in the French law enshrined in the Code de Sport.
What I have written is based on extensive experience dealing with the DDCS. There is absolutely no problem with working as a British citizen in France if you approach it in the right way and with the right attitude. |
If what is written in the article is true, however, then ESF do seem to be fronting the action:
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At last week's meeting in London, that took place on Thursday, the ESF said it was simply following French law. Arguments were put that the hosts do not guide or instruct they simply enhance the holiday experience of their clients and if anything the ski hosts encourage people to go on to take lessons with the ESF.
One of the people at the meeting has told PlanetSKI that it was heated at times as the British put their view across but the ESF seemed intransigent. "We got a gallic shrug of the shoulders on more than one occasion," we have been told. "At one point the leader of the ESF delegation was texting on his phone and did not appear even to be listening to our point of view."
At the meeting was Jean-Marc Simon, the administrative director of the ESF in Grenoble, Simon Atkinson the ESF Director from La Rossiere, Eric Breche an ESF Board Director, and Sebastien Scott the technical director of the ESF in Aime La Plagne.
The French simply say that the hosts are not correctly qualified to take clients round the slopes and it is solely a matter of safety. The ESF denies all allegations of protectionism and trying to get more work for their own instructors.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| skir67 wrote: |
I think a big distinction here lies in the difference in culture between the french and the british. Brits if they take lessons want feedback and properly structured lessons. For a lot of the upper-intermediate and above classes in ESF the french are used to and expect to just ski around behind the instructor and get given the odd tip or hint. The ESF therefore as they are used to this will then see ski hosts as taking business from them as there is not a world of difference between their perception of the roles. This isn't really the case though as brits don't go with a host if they want a lesson or even tips. In 3 seasons of ski hosting I never once got asked to give any tips or hints to guests, they all knew the deal and were happy with it and even though a lot of them knew I had teacher qualifications.
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| shep wrote: |
There are of course good instructors at ESF (and bad ones elsewhere), but it generally seems to be in spite of the way the system is set up rather than because of it. There are also great teachers who give bad lessons to the brits because they don't have the language skills. I refused to teach in french when I was there because I knew I would be crap, but they don't have that luxury. So I guess my point is they should focus more on communication and less on the ability to ski gates.
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Two good paragraphs QFT
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
They have a huge percentage of Dinosaur Instructors... they need to get with the times. |
Would you like to elaberate |
I've had so many clients come back and say that basically the lessons consisted of follow my leader and very little Instruction. Obviously not all Instructors, but a high percentage.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
and the number of even the younger guys capable of explaining pelvic tilt or the difference between weight and pressure in english is very very low
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Sadly many English speakers do not understand that pressure is force divided by area and that weight is mass multiplied by the acceleration due to gravity.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
If what is written in the article is true, however, then ESF do seem to be fronting the action:
At the meeting was Jean-Marc Simon, the administrative director of the ESF in Grenoble, Simon Atkinson the ESF Director from La Rossiere, Eric Breche an ESF Board Director, and Sebastien Scott the technical director of the ESF in Aime La Plagne.
The French simply say... bla bla bla |
50% of the "French" are Brits in that group.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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slikedges,
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It's the additional dimension that each base sound will then have up to 4 tones that makes these variations of the base sound sound only slightly different to speakers of non-tonal languages, but still quite distinct to someone who is used to having this dimension determine the identity of a word.
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Cantonese is worse as a monotonal anglophone. Try saying Nine pen1s are enough for a dog, as an anglophone it is impossible.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| nbt wrote: |
| there's some poo-poo being trotted out by wayne and haggis trap here |
Is that what you typed?
| spud wrote: |
| The ESF are just being back bottoms over this imho... |
Is that what you typed?
I can't believe that after 8+ years, this forum is still censoring the (related) words shit and arse. I shall have to bring this to the attention of the management.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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[quote="shep"]
| miranda wrote: |
| shep wrote: |
rolled into one. |
skir67 there are accepted objective tests of language skills, and for the budget spent on running the ET it would be possible to have a ski-instruction specific version created. BASI ESF etc all do a pretty good job these days at assessing technical level and teaching skills, a lot of effort goes into making sure those who should pass at a certain level do. Motivation is definitely harder to measure but I'm sure a few fine mind applied to the job could come up with something pretty consistent, at least within the vagaries of your ET start-number.
Regarding the distinguished director of Cairngorm ski school, he is not I, although I'm honoured if we share a nickname! It would certainly be a funny old world if the holder of that position expressed similar view to mine about certain members of a certain vintage of BASI royalty! |
Yes, tests could be run in place of the ET and probably should be. My point really was that the ET is very easy to setup and run and therefore inertia rules. Also it is of course not subjective which removes the human factor (say for instance you had somehow managed to blacken your book with your national instructor licensing body, they couldn't stop you from passing the ET, but they might stop you passing a techie exam).
Certainly it would be a bit ironic if the cairngorm ski school director shared your view on the BASI/french govt situation of the late 80's early 90's. A view which I can't really comment on from a personal point of view on a public forum.
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| marksavoie wrote: |
ESFs role: there is a huge misunderstanding about the role of the ESF in this affair.
The ski hosts / leaders were stopped by the inspectors from the French Sports Ministry (DDCS) based in Chambéry. The role of these inspectors is to carry out checks on instructors, mountain guides, etc whose professions are regulated by the French Code de Sport. They are supported in this by the Gendarmerie (usually the section that deals with rescues etc. the Peleton Gendarmerie de Haute Montagne).
The ESF has become what is known as a "Partie Civile" but first and foremost it the DDCS who have stopped Le Ski, amongst others. It is NOT up to the ESF who can instruct, lead, etc skiing (paid / paid in kind) and any change would require a change in the French law enshrined in the Code de Sport.
What I have written is based on extensive experience dealing with the DDCS. There is absolutely no problem with working as a British citizen in France if you approach it in the right way and with the right attitude. |
yes, the ESF was asked by the DDCS to be the 'partie civile' to which they agreed.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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shep,
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never summer yes missing the point(s) I'm afraid.
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I am not the one missing a point here. Can you please enlighten me how hosting and teaching are different in terms of required skills? What skills in you opinion should someone have if he's to show a group of nervous skiers around the slopes as part of his job and for remuneration? Where his responsibility ends and what your insurance company will say if you have an accident? You might be surprised but pretty much every country will have restrictions as to who is qualified to take responsibilities for their paying clients in activities considered risky. If you need guiding by someone for whom it will be a job then your skiing needs to be supervised and there are people who are properly qualified for this, who can be vested with responsibility according to the law. And France has an authority to decide which qualifications are appropriate on it's territory and so has every other country. It's not up to you to change laws of these countries as laws are there for good reasons and "keeping Brits out" is not one of them. Tourists are not losing anything valuable with hosting in its current form is banned (I mean if the ban is enforced as it should be). TO's will have to come up with some other gimmick to that won't be breaking any laws of their host country, that's it, or hire the legal providers of this service.
The rest about "French stolen the right of self determination from the french-alpine population themselves"and brown envelopes is just gibberish. And don't make anyone laugh by calling that bizarre perspective"international". Everyone is free to grab a piste map and go hanging out on slopes with his mates, but once you have a paid employee with you, choosing slopes for you to ski as part of his day job, it stops being a "social affair", whether you agree or not.
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Poster: A snowHead
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never summer,
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choosing slopes for you to ski
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The sting is in the tail of your post. Imagine this scenario: TO guide, who has given appropriate disclaimers, with a bunch of random people to whom he doesn't give any tuition or tips of any kind, rocks up at the start of a run with blue signs on it. He says to them, 'as you will see from the signs and also from your piste map, this run is graded blue and your piste map tells you what that means. I am going down here and will stop from time to time, for us to re-group. You're welcome to follow me, or not, the choice is yours.' He does not 'choose the slopes for you to ski' and I fail to see how - everything else being equal - this should attract any liability. It may do under French law, but to me it seems unreasonable.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Pedantica wrote: |
... blah... blah.... It may do under French law, but to me it seems unreasonable. |
Since when did your opinion have any imapct on French law ?
Under the scenario you describe in the UK (i.e a school party at the Cairngorms or Glenshee) a group leader would need some kind of ski leader qualification.
http://www.snowsportscotland.org/become-a-leader
"Widely recognised throughout the UK as the most appropriate award for skiers and snowboarders taking sole charge of groups, often children, in the mountain environment, and is very popular with teachers and youth workers. Available in Alpine and Snowboarding disciplines, the award covers a range of responsibilities including planning, organising, supervising, leading and instructing."
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Haggis_Trap,
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... blah... blah.... It may do under French law, but to me it seems unreasonable.
Since when did your opinion have any imapct on French law ?
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That is a) rude and b) stupid - of course my opinion has no impact on French law whatsoever, any more than yours does.
The Scots example which you cite is different on its very face:
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taking sole charge of groups, often children, in the mountain environment
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The emboldened words change the scenario significantly.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Pedantica, It will attract liability where it's provided as a paid service by a paid employee as a part of his job. If this sort of activity is regulated by law I am not sure disclaimers by a TO will have any legal effect. What sort of disclaimer are we talking about? "We are here to show you the slopes but should they turn up beyond your ability we deny any responsibility for the outcome, you may or not follow me"? Is this the little precious "service" that the skiing public is so scared to lose? Random bloke in a pub that you met the previous day won't do it? You may chose to follow anyone on the slopes to the same overall effect and won't be breaking any laws. It's not as much about giving or not giving tips but being responsible for the client while he's under your care. In France you need certain qualifications to take this responsibility. I am sure in Britain such qualifications exist too.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Pedantica wrote: |
never summer,
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choosing slopes for you to ski
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The sting is in the tail of your post. Imagine this scenario: TO guide, who has given appropriate disclaimers, with a bunch of random people to whom he doesn't give any tuition or tips of any kind, rocks up at the start of a run with blue signs on it. He says to them, 'as you will see from the signs and also from your piste map, this run is graded blue and your piste map tells you what that means. I am going down here and will stop from time to time, for us to re-group. You're welcome to follow me, or not, the choice is yours.' He does not 'choose the slopes for you to ski' and I fail to see how - everything else being equal - this should attract any liability. It may do under French law, but to me it seems unreasonable. |
Your scenario still sounds like he is leading the group to me both in spirit and in law. I can't see how "stopping to regroup" and following as single leader around the resort is not leading. You are always welcome to follow, or not, be the leader a TO host, ski instructor or mountain guide.
What he could do is write a set of itineraries for the people to follow to discover the resort's slopes, bars, restaurants etc and give that out at the welcome evening. He may even go as far as to point these out from the bottom of the resort.
TOs have known for a long time that they have been operating in a grey area at best. Even in the 90s ski guides were told not to wear company jackets when leading guests both in France and Switzerland because of problems with the police and resort authorities.
However, nothing stops retired snowheads from leading British tourists around ski resorts on a voluntary basis. You can even instruct and go off piste if you want to. The only condition is that you do this for free. Indeed I believe there are a couple of clubs you can join if you want to do this on a more organized basis.
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Hello never summer,
"Can you please enlighten me how hosting and teaching are different in terms of required skills?"
Yes i think i can
Teaching any sport requires an in depth knowledge of the biomechanics needed to carry out certain movements/patterns of movement
associated with whatever sport is being coached. Together with the techniques and communication skills required to pass this knowledge on to a pupil.
Ski hosts do not teach therefore they do not need the above skills. That would seem to me to be a considerable and fundamental difference- what do you think?
" Tourists are not losing anything valuable with hosting in its current form is banned (I mean if the ban is enforced as it should be)"
That is a rather badly thought out statement i'm afraid. Obviously anyone who wants to use a free ski hosting service provided by their tour/chalet operator
in France after a ban WILL lose a valuable service.
In fact i could go on and rubbish the rest of your post because it's all claptrap apart from this
"And France has an authority to decide which qualifications are appropriate on it's territory and so has every other country. It's not up to you to change laws of these countries"
Geoff
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| never summer wrote: |
shep,
Can you please enlighten me? |
I tried that already, so I'll pass this time thanks
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| Quote: |
TO guide, who has given appropriate disclaimers
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The ski host if performing a service for paying clients for which they themselves being paid. From the legislation Davidof posted on page one of the thread that seems to be the relevant point of law. The disclaimer you suggest does not alter the fundamentals of the situation and rather mischaracterises what is going on. I don't think you cannot use a disclaimer to turn a dog into a duck here - no matter how good a lawyer you are.
While Haggis Trap has been characteristically robust, he seems to be basically right about this. The French currently have untrained people leading others in the mountains for pay - something we seem not to allow here. Not only are most not given first aid training but some are expressly forbidden from using any training they might have acquired elsewhere - see earlier pages. That is grossly irresponsible. I'm not surprised they're not happy.
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There is an easy solution to all this....
Ski Resorts should make it law, that everyone who skis or boards and uses the lifts, should have had at least one lesson, With the Ski School and receive a certificate ( which you would have to show when buying lift pass ), showing that they have the knowledge of the mountain code and know how to stop.
Plus I wouldn't allow anyone on the mountain without appropriate Insurance.
If this Court case really is about safety and being responsible and not about loss of earnings, then Ski Resorts and Ski Schools should be trying to enforce this type of safety system.
There is a really good debate going on FB as well through Planetski.
Konrad Bartelski has some interesting points...
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Just out of curiosity what is the law about this sort of thing in the UK? For instance what if I operated a hotel in the Lake district and offered a guiding service to hikers with untrained guides? Or perhaps scrambling? or then again if I had a residential centre in the Southwest that offered guided sea canoeing expeditions. How does it change if children are involved?
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FAQ
I now realise, in retrospect, that one of the reasons that lessons in French didn't do much for me, even though my French is pretty good, could have been that I was simply not understanding some of the technical nuances that were being explained to me, although I thought I was fully in command of what was being said to me at the time.
was just going on a hunch. 