 Poster: A snowHead
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With reference to some of the responses, why are UK skiers obsessed about size and vertical to such an extent. There are lots of viable and successful US ski areas which have less vertical than the Lecht, the vertical of CairnGorm and Nevis would be considered big in plenty of the East Coast.
People complain that Scotland is too small, not enough KM's, not enough vertical, not big enough lifts, then go to say Glencoe and argue that the mountains not skiable. When I see people on here saying I need a 100km's I want to headbutt the desk. On the one hand so many UK skiers want immaculately groomed landscaped pistes, but then complain that it's boring to do each more than once so want 100s... don't people see the glaringly obvious contradiction?
You could spend all day on Glas Maol and never ski the same line twice at Glenshee.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sun 27-03-11 23:48; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Winterhighland, I need to ski the same piste at least several times before I feel I have got the best out of it. Each time discovering new lines, altering technique and learning. On another day, with different snow conditions it can be like a new piste. TBH the most fun I have is having a blast carving (badly  ) down a run thats well within my comfort zone. Completely agree with you on this one.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thanks for the input.
I started small with the idea of making an entirely manmade snow area, and the scope of the idea got bigger and bigger, as i tried to get more natural snowfall. Then the scale of the development needed to increase as i needed to justify people travelling for 3-4 hours to get there.
I will try to bring the snow to the people rather than bring the people to the snow.
Just to clarify, is skiing in a snowdome "Fridge" just as bad as skiing on snowcannon snow outdoors 
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| Quote: |
People complain that Scotland is too small, not enough KM's, not enough vertical, not big enough lifts, then go to say Glencoe and argue that the mountains not skiable. When I see people on here saying I need a 100km's I want to headbutt the desk. On the one hand so many UK skiers want immaculately groomed landscaped pistes, but then complain that it's boring to do each more than once so want 100s... don't people see the glaringly obvious contradiction?
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Thats cos when a lot of them try to ski something other than the immaculately groomed motorway pistes of Europe they fail abysmally.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| mr_big_ad wrote: |
| I suspect that the snowheads forum is not inhabited by the likes of people who would go to ruka in Finland or Pamporovo in Bulgaria, but thousands of people do every year. These resorts cater for people for whom 20k of pistes is sufficient. |
This is nonsense. snowHeads is full of nutters who'll hike 3 hours up Ben Nevis in July just to ski 50m of whatever has magically survived in a cold North-facing shadow somewhere.
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| Mr Technique wrote: |
| This is nonsense. snowHeads is full of nutters who'll hike 3 hours up Ben Nevis in July just to ski 50m of whatever has magically survived in a cold North-facing shadow somewhere. |
glad to hear it, i'm new here! 
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| Winterhighland wrote: |
With reference to some of the responses, why are UK skiers obsessed about size and vertical to such an extent. There are lots of viable and successful US ski areas which have less vertical than the Lecht, the vertical of CairnGorm and Nevis would be considered big in plenty of the East Coast.
People complain that Scotland is too small, not enough KM's, not enough vertical, not big enough lifts, then go to say Glencoe and argue that the mountains not skiable. When I see people on here saying I need a 100km's I want to headbutt the desk. On the one hand so many UK skiers want immaculately groomed landscaped pistes, but then complain that it's boring to do each more than once so want 100s... don't people see the glaringly obvious contradiction?
You could spend all day on Glas Maol and never ski the same line twice at Glenshee. |
FWIW, one of my favourite ski areas (Nordkette) is tiny - smaller than any of the Scottish areas anyway. But the two lifts open up a huge amount of terrain, you get good long descents on (usually) good snow, and the adult day ticket costs the same as a student one at Glen Shee (and you still seem to pay full price at Glen Sheeeven when all the chairs and half of the drags are closed). From what I've seen (which I admit is very little), none of the attractions of Scottish skiing are lift served, and whilst the pistes and lifts have their place for beginners, they're still way overpriced compared to the Alps.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| From what I've seen (which I admit is very little), none of the attractions of Scottish skiing are lift served, and whilst the pistes and lifts have their place for beginners, they're still way overpriced compared to the Alps. |
They may be overpriced for what is on offer, but they need to be to keep their heads above water.
most Alpine resorts can offer skiing every day for 4 months.
Scottish ski resorts need to make their money on 12 weekends a year and during school holidays.
I dont think any of the resorts make much money, hopefully the money they make during bumper years gets re-invested in snow retention and grooming equipment to make the best of what they get.
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Exactly - they don't charge more because it is worth more, they do it because they have to. Not good value for the punter. Especially when you propose to charge double for your venture in England - it's like having a zoo with only one animal (say a donkey) in it. Not many people want to visit, so you charge the few who do more.
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but people are prepared to pay for convenience, and to some extent novelty, hence they still go.
you can buy a 2ltr bottle of coke for 40% more than a 330ml can, but when the can is in the fridge, you buy that.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| mr_big_ad wrote: |
Just to clarify, is skiing in a snowdome "Fridge" just as bad as skiing on snowcannon snow outdoors |
I've only skied at the Hemel, but I have skied there many times. The snow at Hemel is incomparably better than the artificial stuff you get from Snow Cannons in the Alps. To me it feels like 'real' snow, and it reacts to heavy traffic over the course of the day in a similar way to real snow.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
| Exactly - they don't charge more because it is worth more, they do it because they have to |
You can knock the 20% VAT off for a start for a fairer comparison. Comments that Scottish lifts and pistes are all for beginners is not only rubbish, such comments are dangerous.
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Probably the biggest problem with OP's idea is the weather. I'm not going to try to guess for how many days each winter the weather will be a howling rain-laden gale. That's why people don't go to Scotland.
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You know it makes sense.
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clarky999, Don't dismiss Scottish skiing from skiing late season at Glenshee. I grew up near Aberdeen and didn't bother much with skiing Scotland for about 10 years. Then I went to Glencoe not expecting much.
The terrain at Glencoe and Nevis is so much steeper and more interesting that you have to go and visit them. Well worth the extra travel - Nevis is only an hour further than Cairngorm, which takes the same time as Glenshee at this time of year. Awesome lift served steep skiing and rarely queues at both. No/minimal piste markings and just a few lifts. Have managed the >900m & >700m vertical descent at them but you do have to get a bit lucky for that. The front side of Nevis is a bit small but the Back Corries are steep and give long runs. Unmissable. 
The lift pass prices are artificially inflated by HMRC taking VAT unlike the rest of EU but are cheap compared to USA/Canada. Cheaper than petrol anyway!
Cross Fell sounds like a nice idea, for me in Manchester anyway but it seems difficult to persuade many people that there are other areas in Scotland than Cairngorm and that there is snow when it isn't lying in the cities. Can't see the English being easier to convince so you're going to need a big marketing budget!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| mr_big_ad wrote: |
….
In order to make is economically viable, you need visitors, lots of visitors, I found a useful table for calculating the number of visitors you could expect, based on the population located within one hours on this site. http://www.snowflex.com/ from this, I concluded that an 1000m high mountain in Essex, would be ideal, however following a quick check on a map, none was to be found.
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the landfill tip at pitsea is progressing nicely must be 50 m high already.. only another 950 to go.. they way london churns out rubbish it could be ready for next season
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
clarky999, Don't dismiss Scottish skiing from skiing late season at Glenshee. I grew up near Aberdeen and didn't bother much with skiing Scotland for about 10 years. Then I went to Glencoe not expecting much.
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Oh yeah definitely, that wasn't my intention - I've only skied two days in Scotland and even Glen Shee has ace potential with skins, and I've heard that Glen Coe and Cairngorm have better terrain (getting to any of them with public trnasport is next to impossible though!). I'd love to be able to get over to Glen Coe!! But given equal snow conditions (from what I've seen ) the Alps are better than Scotland, and Scotland will be better than England. I just think prices should reflect that a bit more (mainly referring to the suggestion that tickets at this proposed area in England would be 50 quid here).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
The vast majority of snowdomes have been built in the north/midlands, not one has been built in the South of England, and they still make money despite charging £25/hour.
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Last time I skiied at Hemmel and MK I could have sworn they were in the South? But then Im from the Far North and pretty ESN.
Oh and the last few times we have skiied at Manchester we have paid less than quater of your £25/hr.
You could however take it up to Edinburgh there is a nice hill on the outskirts with a great road access good variable slope, some lifts allready there and some nice matting to hold the snow. A quiet word with the council and it would be yours 'for a song'
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| what...snow wrote: |
| it seems difficult to persuade many people that there are other areas in Scotland than Cairngorm and that there is snow when it isn't lying in the cities. Can't see the English being easier to convince so you're going to need a big marketing budget! |
Webcams can help a lot with this, and snow alerts pre warning people that a dump is on its way would allow people to tell the missus they won't be able to come shoe shopping at the weekend in advance. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| kevindonkleywood wrote: |
| Last time I skiied at Hemmel and MK I could have sworn they were in the South? But then Im from the Far North and pretty ESN. |
I'm from Southampton, so the M4 marks the North for me!
I think Hemmel Burnt down
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| mr_big_ad wrote: |
| kevindonkleywood wrote: |
| Last time I skiied at Hemmel and MK I could have sworn they were in the South? But then Im from the Far North and pretty ESN. |
I'm from Southampton, so the M4 marks the North for me!
I think Hemmel Burnt down |
Wycombe got a bit warm; Hemel is nice and Cold....
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| mr_big_ad wrote: |
| I think Hemmel Burnt down |
It's good that you're knowledgeable about the current skiing infrastructure in England. That can only be of benefit when you're presenting your business plan to potential investors.
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Unless you are actually talking about a cow shed that was destroyed in a fire, in which case I now look quite foolish.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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High Wycombe and Hemel Hempstead aren't the same place.
Geography not your strong point, is it?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I conclude you're a massive troll, just doing this thread for laughs.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Have you recently suffered a blow to the head?
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You know it makes sense.
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yep, all three are close, i got confused.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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All three of High Wycombe and Hemel Hempstead?
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Poster: A snowHead
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and Milton Keynes
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| mr_big_ad wrote: |
but people are prepared to pay for convenience, and to some extent novelty, hence they still go.
you can buy a 2ltr bottle of coke for 40% more than a 330ml can, but when the can is in the fridge, you buy that. |
Erm, I have a fridge at home. I don't buy 330ml cans. I don't know many people who do, other than when 2ltr bottles aren't available.
Going skiing is not like buying a can of coke. If a ski trip was 40% more expensive, I'd go somewhere else. I also fail to see why driving for 6 hours in the UK is better for me than driving for 8 hours in France and going somewhere good.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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All three of the zero indoor slopes built in the South?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| mr_big_ad wrote: |
| and Milton Keynes |
Milton Keynes is miles away from Hemel and High Wycombe.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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no they are not, if your whole world just revolves around Apsley maybe, but in the context of the whole country, they are pretty close.
they are all between the M1 and the M40
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technically they are about 20 miles away, so that would count as miles....wouldn't want to be picked up on the geography again!
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| mr_big_ad wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| From what I've seen (which I admit is very little), none of the attractions of Scottish skiing are lift served, and whilst the pistes and lifts have their place for beginners, they're still way overpriced compared to the Alps. |
They may be overpriced for what is on offer, but they need to be to keep their heads above water.
most Alpine resorts can offer skiing every day for 4 months.
Scottish ski resorts need to make their money on 12 weekends a year and during school holidays.
I dont think any of the resorts make much money, hopefully the money they make during bumper years gets re-invested in snow retention and grooming equipment to make the best of what they get. |
Just to clarify, your statement above is that you don't think any of the resorts make much money, yet for some inane reason you want to build another?
As the Dragons would say - however much you have invested, however much time, effort and money, please stop now. Do not quit your job. Do not invest any more in this. You are making a big mistake here. It will fail, and you will be left penniless and alone, having chased a dream that simply wasn't practical.
If you really, really want to do something like this, buy a cheap rope or drag lift. Install it on a suitable hill that gets a lot of snow every year. Sell lift passes to people, get a really good vibe going. When it pays for itself think about expanding. Gradually over time you will either build a business or will fail. I suspect you will fail. Sorry.
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| mr_big_ad wrote: |
| technically they are about 20 miles away, so that would count as miles....wouldn't want to be picked up on the geography again! |
About 20 miles is actually 31 miles. That is far enough that we go to Hemel (round the corner) and never go to MK. And you are hoping that people like me are going to drive for hours to get to a resort that may or may not be a grassy field when I get there?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| mr_big_ad wrote: |
no they are not, if your whole world just revolves around Apsley maybe, but in the context of the whole country, they are pretty close.
they are all between the M1 and the M40 |
Be very careful, you are making huge assumptions about a potential customer. My whole world revolves around almost anywhere but Apsley, that's where I sleep most nights, but travel a great deal. In the context of the whole country, it is easier to fly to the Alps than to try and get round the M25 at 5pm. But you are conveniently ignoring your competitors across the channel.
By your reasoning High Wycombe is near Rugby - they're both between the M40 and the M1.
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For all people scoffing at the concept of an outdoor ski area in England, I suspect that with regular snow making kit you could get several extra weeks sliding in at somewhere like Allenheads most winters.
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FAQ
