Can we trust Ski Holiday companies?

A snowHead

Our half-board/flights ski holiday in February 2011 for a group of 17 at the Hotel Savoy, Meribel has just been cancelled by Crystal Ski because they say the hotel owners have sold the hotel for redevelopment.
We made our booking and paid our deposits in April2010
Crystal Ski offered us two holiday replacement options at the same price; Bed & Breakfast in Courcheval or a hotel in Les Arc200.
We found neither of these alternatives suitable for the type of holiday we had originally booked.
The law appears to say that if they cancel our holiday and can't offer a suitable alternative they must offer us 'compensation' without specifying what that compensation could be.
Crystal's terms and conditions state that cancelled holidays without an acceptable alternative will only be 'compensated' if they are cancelled with less than 56 days of the scheduled travel date and the maximum compensation will be £40 !!!!!
(I presume per person).
Has anyone else suffered from this sort of problem and what did they do about it?

A snowHead

Mr Marmot, sorry to hear this - a nightmare I know. Something very similar happened to us, about 20 years ago, again with Crystal. We had booked and paid deposits for our group of 16, in the May, as soon as the brochures were out (no internet then!), for the following March. We booked early as we a) were a large group and b) knew what/where we wanted. The week before the final balance was due, Crystal cancelled as they said there was "insufficient demand" for that resort! At that stage, it proved impossible to find anything that was equally suitable, a similar cost and - crucially - still had availability for 16 people. We had no choice but to cancel with nothing but our deposits back or accept their alternative. The group decided to take the alternative, and when we got there, there was no snow! Literally! To add insult to injury, the resort we should have been in, was indundated with the stuff! Our lift pass costs (paid in advance) were refunded in resort.

We spent MONTHS on our return, trying to drag some form of compensation out of Crystal and ended up with £40 each! Seems things haven't improved. We haven't booked with a TO for a long time, so I'm out of touch with what you would be entitled to but I'm guessing not much more than you say above.

I'm presuming that in addition to the maximum they are offering, they will also return your deposits?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

that sucks.

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Mr Marmot, BTW is this half term?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Never had this problem as I've usually booked privately, however it does seem to me that offering B&B when you had previously booked HB is not on as an alternative, you don't say what was wrong with the Les Arcs hotel so I can't comment as to it's validity as a suitable alternative.

Unfortunately theres more than 56 days before you are due to travel so it looks like you are not even eligeable for compensation just a refund according to their T&C's not sure what the law says on this

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Counting down until some one-post-womble from Crystal chimes in with a load of flatulent platitudes...

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Mr Marmot, they sold that hotel before the contract on it was confirmed on the basis that if it fell through they would just move people elsewhere - dodgy way of operating in my opinion, but they do it often. I've frequently seen properties on sale on their website which I know for a fact are leased to other operators and not available throught TUI.

You should keep on making a fuss. The B&B Courchevel option is blatantly not on, as it's not comparable to your original half board booking and they are taking the widdle by offering it. I'd talk to the CAB/a solicitor - they might back off and refund you if they think you're that serious.

After all it is free

Thats pants.. especially if it is half term...

Anniepen, not half-term-first week in Feb. I wonder if this sort of problem is common only to Crystal? They haven't been very sympathetic to us and they sound like they weren't very sympathetic to you.

D G Orf, probably nothing wrong with the Les Arc hotel except it isn't in Meribel! I'm sure we all select our ski resorts very carefully to give us what we are looking for and this group was looking for an extensive area (I know Les Arc/la Plagne is very big) and a lively Apres Ski which we feel only Meribel or Val d'Isere can provide in France. BTW we have already booked an alternative in St Anton but obviously not with Crystal. If they don't care about us, we don't care about them!

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Mr Marmot, as Lizzard, points out, a feature in your favour, if you choose to pursue it, is that at least one of the 'alternatives' (the Courchevel one) isn't comparable to what you had chosen and booked.

When it happened to us, it was more difficult as the alternative - on paper - WAS comparable. Both were half board, similar standard and in the same country. It was only when we arrived that we found the great discrepancy and the only one that mattered - the absence of snow!

Have a word with someone who knows the current law on this kind of thing - let us know how you get on. Good luck Very Happy

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Lizard, I can't believe Crystal would offer an hotel to their customers without having some sort of contract with the hotel owners to provide the rooms. I would have thought that if the owners sold the hotel they would have been in breach of contract with Crystal and had to pay Crystal some suitable compensation and more than £40 per person. Which we weren't offered anyway because our holiday was more than 56 days away.

Only some of the group could be bothered to try and take things further. The rest just shrugged their shoulders and said if they can't look after a large group who have given Crystal their business for years, then we'll just have to go elsewhere. Which we have. Mark Warner will get £15,000 from us this year instead of Crystal!

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Push them hard on equivalence = HB in 3 vallees in same std accomodation. If not I'd say tough, not very nice but you accept the T&Cs when you book, if you suspect or have evidence that they've breached the T&Cs then take them through small claims court. Most people will write it off as a bad experience and their margins aren't big enough to get worked up over a few unhappy punters.

I agree with fatbob, ring them, speak nicely to someone 'senior' and politely but firmly insist on like for like, ie HB in Courchevel, and they swallow any difference in cost.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Friend who helps me organize our trip to Val d Isere has just been told by another operator
,quoting for same holiday, that Hundred Hills where we are planning to go are going bankcrupt!
Legit comment or sour grapes??
How do we make sure before we pay (and maybe lose ) deposit?

A snowHead

A snowHead

lizski, I should hold off paying the deposit, ask the other operator where they got the information and see what Hundred Hills have to say about it. If they aren't in trouble and people are spreading that sort of rumour, they need to know about it.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Lizzard, thanks, just spoke to manager of rival company, he said his agent were talking about the previous owners of the company ,Finlays skiing, - and admitted she should not have said that -

new owners/operators we get a good feeling from, and they gave us a very good deal, so will stop worrying.

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Fatbob, Of course we agreed to the terms and conditions of trading at the time of booking. I bet we all do it automatically in the belief that the tour operator will be fair and reasonable and that the Government put laws in place to protect the consumer. My post is really to highlight the reality, and to warn others.

It wouldn't surprise me if all the tour operators have similar T&C as Crystal, and I just wondered if people are aware of them.

My understanding is that they can cancel your holiday at any time for 'events beyond their control' and just refund any monies you have paid. Which is fair enough, I suppose if something is really beyone their control. But they can also cancel or make a major change and pay compensation for any other reason. Their compensation is £0 if this happens 57 days or more before the planned departure date rising on a sliding scale to the massive sum of £40 if within 8 days!

There are laws within The Package Travel, Package Holidays and Package Tours Regulations 1992 that could apply to how we have been treated by Crystal, but these are open to interpretation. Therefore a Solicitor would be required to fight the case unless a person has the time to prepare a case to argue themselves, and if both cases there are the costs to consider if you lose.

The Government really needs to revisit the issue of package tours and put some better consumer protection in place. The travel companies themselves are not interested in good customer relations.

Lizard, Fatbob & Kitenski, even HB in Courchevel wouldn't have been a suitable replacement for us. We wanted to be in Meribel. I believe that people booking ski holidays, probably more than other holidays, look for very specific requirements when chosing their holiday and a different resort in the same region was not acceptable to us. This is why we booked in April for the following February - to get what we wanted. We did suggest a different hotel in Meribel that had availability but they said we would have to pay all the price difference of £120 per person. We tried to negotiate but they weren't interested. Crystal's choices were
take what they were offering or have our deposits back. We took the deposits back. Maybe we should have asked for interest on our £2,200 deposit they held for 5 months!

Seriously, everyone needs to be aware that booking a ski package holiday is clearly under the terms of a contract and laws that offer scant protection for the customer.

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It would be interesting if other customer facing businesses worked in a similar fashion.

Like walking into a restaurant, sitting down, and ordering fillet steak and chips. After half an hour, the waiter arrives with a bucket of fish heads, challenges you to prove that it is not "equivalent", offers you compensation of 20p, and tells you to fuck off with a kick up the arse.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

same here, just had my return fights canncelled 4 days before flying, would have cost me 400euros to do it the otherway around, i have no back up or choice, have been refunded the tiny amount i paid due to good planning and now will have to pay a huge sum to book an altenative. Same wiith bank letters and the like, us consumers are screwed, yes there are always terms and conditions, but they explain the penalyies outside of terms and conditions so we kinda asume the same level of penalty the other way.

After all it is free

luckily there are places like this for naming and shaming, there should be a forum section for this alone, let the manfactuerers, business owners, management step forward. like that Nicky cambell show.

Sounds very much like this sort of thing is completely beyond the TO's control and even if you had booked direct with the hotel itself, the outcome would be much the same, except that maybe you would have booked and paid for flights which you now can't use. It's very unlucky but hotel owners are an unpredictable bunch, especially in this economic climate.

I know snowheads is generally fond of TO bashing but some of us are more than happy with the service they offer.

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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

It would be interesting if other customer facing businesses worked in a similar fashion.

Like walking into a massage parlour of dubious repute, sitting down (slightly awkwardly), and ordering a topless hand shandy from the blonde with big tits who is pictured on the grubby laminated card blu tacked to the wall next to the fusebox. After half an hour of anxious fiddling in your pocket like Michael J Fox unsuccesfully reaching for his bus fare, a crack-addled Bulgarian pre-op arrives with a surprise hanging underneath, challenges you in somewhat broken English to prove that it is not "equivalence", offers you compensation by way of a two-way reacharound, and then has you murdered by a gang of people traffickers and thrown into the Biffa behind the chip shop next door.

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queen bodecia, oh come on. Highly inlikely that they didn't know in April that a sale was in the offing - these things take a long time and there aren't many secrets in resort. What's more, the hotel is still listed on their website now.

Lizzard, then that's clearly a mistake but I doubt it can actually be booked through their website now. The hotel I stayed in La Thuile last season has been sold too. It's still in the Crystal brochure, but can't be booked. Point is, TOs deal with a huge number of third party suppliers they have little control over. The one massively good thing about Crystal is that they are the same company as the airline they use so far less faffing about with flight cancellations and changes.

I understand the OP's issue, but the point is, they are not out of a pocket as a result and still have plenty of time to find and book an alternative holiday. It's not the TO's fault. Such things can and do happen to the DIY brigade too.

You know it makes sense.

No.

Mis-sold a holiday by First Choice sales person who said the creche was nearby. Actually about half an hour walk away in each direction. So two hours walk for each session (only booked mornings). First Choice accepted no liability. Spent many an hour on "hold" on the phone, requested transcripts of phone conversations (they sent transcripts from the wrong day) and sent a few letters. Got nothing from them. Had spent £15,000k with them that year (group ski for 11 and 2x summer holidays). Not booked with them or any other TUI op. since. Indeed dont think I have done any TO hol since. Wish I'd stuck to my intentions and sent a post card to the MD from every holiday since which I havent booked with them. Maybe one day I will send a photo from each holiday instead.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

the travel industry contract conditions seem very 'cowboy' in comparison to other industries

A snowHead

Mr Marmot,

A snowHead

Shimmy Alcott, Pephaps we can include a "I don't book with Crystal" line into each of our signatures too Evil or Very Mad

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Yeah good luck with that when Crystal offers sH a lucrative advertising deal.

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Mr Technique, Have they?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

When as in if and when.

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Mr Technique, Cool

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Firstly we have already agreed advertising from one of the TUI brands this season.
This will not indemnify them from criticism on the forum: in this respect they are the same as any other company, advertiser or not.
If they are criticised on the forum we will encourage them to respond here and they should be accorded respect like any other snowHead.

So if Jivebaby wants to start his list then he's quite welcome to and in the context that it has been described, I see no particular problem with it except: what's the goal? To get an apology? The OP has moved on and booked elsewhere so there's no longer any bargaining to be done to get them a better option. I'd suggest you first define your cause unless you're happy to just be a rebel without one.
Also, just in case anyone's tempted to start getting a bit fundamentalist about it, bear in mind that anything that can be construed as an orchestrated campaign to damage a company's reputation has the potential to cause very real legal complications, not just for the individuals who are doing the orchestrating but possibly for snowHeads too.

The scale of snowHeads' audience gives it some influence now and that can be a very good thing when a 'lowly' customer has been treated badly: snowHeads has the potential to give them a voice that can be heard. The OP here appears to be a good example of that.
To the contrary of what Boredsurfing said above, the TO he refers to did not 'ignore snowHeads' but tried very hard to get us to remove Pandora's thread, as they had successfully done with her posts on other forums. I stood my ground on snowHeads' behalf, advised them that they would do better to address the matter head-on and offered them my best efforts to create a level playing field on which to do it but they chose not to. IMO that was their mistake but nevertheless it is also their prerogative. AFAIK that topic is still on the first page of Google results for their name Toofy Grin

Don't forget, snowHeads exists primarily because someone didn't like the criticism being meted out to them on a snow-forum.
As I've said before, I spend a lot of time and effort each season defending our right to maintain 'controversial' topics that other forums seem all too willing to delete. It's not a job I enjoy doing but I do believe it's something that is important for the forum and so I find Mr Technique's not infrequent jibes insinuating or accusing me of the contrary, somewhat offensive.

These kinds of topic are by their nature more sensitive than most: people are often upset at the time and there may be facts on either side of the story that are not in the public domain. Beyond that, legal issues may exist or later arise. (not implying anything re. this thread specifically)
As with any topic, the considered opinion and advice from members of the forum can be hugely beneficial in helping steer the matter towards a better conclusion for all. However, trolling them usually damages the prospects of anyone getting a satisfactory outcome.

In general, while the best companies seek to address their errors, the worst would prefer that their mistakes were ignored and the complainants dismissed.
If complaints raised on snowHeads result in reasonable and incisive discussion, there is far more pressure on the company to address the mater reasonably. If the real issues are obscured by flaming and trolling, the better companies are prevented from doing it right and the worse ones get to dismiss them too easily.
In short - trolls are the unwitting servants of the lame operators.

We encourage companies who have received criticism here to address the issue here as we have seen this approach produce great results in the past for all the parties concerned.
We will apply the same principles and standards to topics that include tour-op (or other industry) employees or representatives as any other.
Just as posts were removed recently and a user warned because they were abusive toward a race or creed, posts that are abusive towards individuals will be similarly sanctioned. The fact that they may be representing their company, whether officially or unofficially, makes no difference in that respect.

After all it is free

carry on

admin, Cheers, as i need another rant once I have my ducks in a row.

FWIW It was a nightmare having to factor in two hours worth of walking each day to our holiday (ref. my post above) especially as you want to save all your energy for the slopes and we actually only book Izzie in for morning creche as we save afternoon time for family stuff aswell. First Choice did not give a stuff. They had their £11k and I didnt have a leg to stand on legally as I could not prove that the sales guy had told me the creche was next to the hotel. Especially seeing as how First Choice would not even provide me with telephone transcripts for the right day. In the end I gave up as it was taking me 40 mins on hold to even get through to anyone. That is not fair practice. I have hurt First Choice/TUI in their wallet ever since by not booking with them.

Thanks for unlocking the thread and doing what is morally correct.

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Shimmy Alcott, im with you. i book it all on my own, flights, transfer, accomodation, lift pass, ski hire etc. I wont book a ski holiday with a TO.

Help!!

Can we trust Ski Holiday companies?

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