Can we trust Ski Holiday companies?

A snowHead

Had another hol starting last Boxing Day - v. early morning flight; thus having to cut Christmas celebrations short to be up at 3am ish. We booked the flight through Snowjet. All credit to Snowjet who advised us a few days before that our flight had been delayed by many hours and moved to another destination airport in France as the carrier had no pilot qualified to land in Chambery. Snowjet had acted as an agent and booked us on a TO flight (flight only) but the TO did not tell their passengers of the changes. It was a nightmare day with other changes made after we arrived at the airport for the re-scheduled time, but at least Snowjet had kept us up to date. The TO just let their passengers turn up at the original time. We had a few hours delay but the TO passengers had a MEGA delay. Especially annoying as it probably meant they could have had a normal Christmas day the day before. So the TO knew days before that their flight would be delayed by quite a considerable time and would be flying to a different airport but it didn't inform the passengers.

Legally it should not be allowed.

By the way, Snowjet were stars.

A snowHead

Mr Marmot, I've stayed in the Hotel Savoy in Meribel. From what I remember of having to eat (half board), you had a lucky escape!!! Shocked

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

admin, Many thanks -

I mostly agree with your summation and appreciate your strategic view and you've made some good points:

For clarity my suggestion was intended, when negotiations are concluded, to create a simple list of companies displaying individual Snowhead ID's who record that they are not happy to recommend/deal with company XXX (without comment)

Moreover and critically with hindsight, a similar positive list balancing those companies we like and do recommend Cool

We already do this in an ad-hoc fashion for resorts, equipment, etc. My objective was to suggest consolidating a SH list that would give our "opinion" more weight, potentially encouraging TO's etc to engage more proactively with SnowHeads as a consequence. Potentially this would help avoid disputes or if not possibly truncate them sooner. This perhaps of it as a popularity poll/league table-definitely not a list of complaints/rants etc and it's logical that we should seek to leverage the strengths of SnowHeads and our membership of it in a positive manner, for example as you have done with the Snow Centre at Hemel. As SH's we enjoy fantastic facilities at comparatively good rates, which in turn produces a positive result all round with for me at least, as I give lots of recommendations both for SH's and the Snow Centre. I seem to recall on earlier forums Salomon responded very well to delamination complaints from SH's so perhaps if that recollection is right there may well be dozens of companies hidden away in our archives that are fantastic ambassadors for the commercial side of skiing and equally maybe a few that deserve to be boycotted for eternity. If so and it is OK to shine the spotlight on these guys good and bad, we can at least start off with a blank canvas.

And I've reverted my "signature" snowHead

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Shimmy Alcott,

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fatbob, you'd be surprised how such witholding can have an effect.

A while ago (!) MrsW and I were flying BA to Madrid for our wedding anniversary, and they lost our luggage. We were both frequent flyers with them, and although their initial response was fine, and as much as you could hope for while we were away, their compensation for the inconvenience and damage to the eventually returned case/contents was not.

"There is a long list", they said, "and you'll have to wait 8 or 9 weeks until we get to even evaluating your request".

"That's fine" , we said, "but you'll see from your databases that we fly every week, so until you sort it, we'll travel with someone else. Take as long as you need".

Each week I emailed them asking for progress, explained that I had just booked another couple of flights with Swissair, and gave a running total. Then MrsW had to go to Jo'burg - so chose to go with SAA. Business return, about 4 grand. Add in the weekly European flights, they were about 7 grand down.

And we kept on sending them emails: "No need to rush, and absolutely no problems, we're sure you've got better things to do, by the way, here's the running total of money spent elsewhere..."

On her return from South Africa, there was a cheque waiting for MrsW, with 25% on top of what we'd asked for, and a fulsome apology.

They care alright if you can hit them where it hurts, and keep reminding them of the fact. Shimmy you should send those post-cards!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

JimW, Well done, I like your style!

After all it is free

Mr Technique,

Can I request that you edit your previous post which attemps to use parkinson's disease as part of a very lame joke.
Thanks

I am pleased this thread has been unlocked. I would have been disappointed if it had been deleted.

My purpose in recounting our woes is to highlight what little protection holidaymakers have and how little the tour operators care about their customers, and to warn other customers of what could happen to them.

I stand by all the facts I have mentioned above in just what happened to our Crysatl Ski holiday and how they treated us. We have all the facts in writing so Crystal cannot deny those. I'm sure Crystal would be welcome to respond on this forum if they think it is worthwhile.

I'm a bit disappointed in Queen Bodecia's responses. I can only assume that it hasn't happened to her. Yet. I disagree with her comment that everything is all right because we got our deposits back and we have plenty of time to book a new holiday. I can assure her that booking for a group of 17 is never easy at the best of times and despite trying we failed to find an equivalent in Meribel (at a similar cost, of course).

Time is also an issue when trying to negotiate anything with the tour companies. Their initial mindset is not 'let's find a way of making this customer happy after we have had to disappoint them', it seems to be ' what is the minimum we can get away with'. Fighting this attitude can take months, and at the end of it you may still be in the same position since neither their terms and conditions nor the law seem to provide any reasonable remedy.

I'd still like to hear about any other problems anyone has had with ski tour operators so everyone gets an idea if it is endemic or just a few isolated problems. I'm surprised that we haven't heard from anyone else who has had their planned trip to Savoy Hotel in Merbel cancelled.

I don't see the point in starting a movement against Crystal Ski, since I suspect that most tour operators are all the same. But it would be good if we could let the tour operators know what snowHeads expect from them, and then promote those companies who meet the criteria.

I'm listing below some things I would like to see ski tour companies provide;

1) Ski Companies should accept that if they market a holiday and someone books that holiday and pays a deposit then it is their responsibility to provide that holiday as promised. If they fail to do so they must offer an alternative, or compensation, which the customer finds acceptable.

2) Ski flights should include an enhanced luggage allowance as standard. Ski-wear is bulky and heavy and a 20Kg allowance isn't enough especially where ski-boots are included in this allowance.

3) Ski carriage charges should be reasonable (at the cost of the increased fuel, ticketing and handling charges only)

4) Ski carriage charges should include for ski-boots carriage even where these are in a seperate bag.

Anyone got anything to add?

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

5) Mr Marmot, should have everything he wants just because he wants it and regardless of cost. Laughing

I think you're out of luck with the airline thing, frankly.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

snow reports

Bit late here. After skimming the posts:-

You know it makes sense.

It would be interesting if other customer facing businesses worked in a similar fashion.

Like walking into the reception area at Dignitas in Switzerland and being led discreetly to a small but comfortable booth in order to fill in the final forms before 'the procedure'. Just as you finish the final flourish of the last signature you believe you will ever put to paper you feel a tap on your shoulder. It is a young man in starkly white surgical scrubs, an enigmatic glimmer of a smile on his lips.

"There has been an alteration to the procedure", he says.

"What kind of alteration?" you ask.

"It will no longer be a painless lethal injection."

"Oh?"

"For reasons beyond our control the procedure is now to lower you feet first into the whirling jaws of an industrial wood-chipping machine", he explains. "I think you will find that this is equivalent however".

You can't believe what you are hearing, and although you had resigned yourself to your mortal fate, the horror of what is about to occur overcomes you and you collapse to the floor, wailing an inhuman wail.

"I DON'T WANT TO DIE" you shriek. "NOT THIS WAY!"

"Well get out then, and stop wasting our time", the young man instructs you coldly, and turns brusquely around and leaves you, still sobbing.

Dazed, confused and terrified, you retrace your steps through the reception area and emerge into the cold Swiss morning air with the sting of tears still in your eyes.

But, you realise like a bolt of lightning through your chest, you have a new lease of life. What were you thinking? You don't want to die. The remnants of your weeping transform into laughter, near-hysterical at first, and then joyful. The realisation that you will once again see the family you thought you had left behind is almost too much to bear, and a primal howl of joy escapes your mouth, screaming to the heavens "I'm alive! I'm alive."

Then you get hit by one of those stupid trams that they have over there, and die.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Mr Marmot

Firstly, it's a pain when this happens, but it does, and compared to some others you at least have the luxury of a decent time span to put it "right", unlike many others who've posted, so I think most people will apportion sympathy with this in mind. But good luck with your alternative efforts.

Like wise this:

A snowHead

Mr Marmot, Send your list to Michael O'Leary I'm sure he'll be sympathetic Toofy Grin

A snowHead

Lizzard I'll try not to stamp my little paws if I don't get my own way Evil or Very Mad

I'm prepared to pay to get the service I want. Obviously I would choose the cheapest company who could come up with the goods. Not everyone might agree they want the service I'm looking for.

I can't see why the airlines couldn't also meet the needs of the customer.

Mosha Marc Well we certainly lost what the tour operator promised us when taking our money! The tour operator's cancellation certainly 'cost' us in wasted time, aggravation and disappointment. As Mr Technique alludes to in his humorous posts surely customers can't be expected to pay for something and then be given something else without redress. I appreciate that there can always be 'unforeseen' circumstances, but it would be nice if this was then dealt with a bit of good customer care. Crystal certainly never offered us any acceptable good customer care.

The simple fact is that everyone should be aware that currently their holidays can be simply destroyed with very little redress. If most people are happy with this situation, then so be it. I respect your opinion if this is your view.Those that don't share your view might want to let the tour companies know that they are not happy in the hope that something can be done about it.

ColinB It wouldn't surprise me if O'Leary suggested that skiers would have to stand the whole flight with bended kness. There wouldn't be a discount for this mode of travel but an extra charge on the basis Ryanair were offering a service to the possible benefit of the customer!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Are ski holiday companies any different to standard holiday companies?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Dr John,

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Mr Marmot, Lesson one of SH. They are never very sympathetic Sad

Good luck with finding another holiday - I know it's a nightmare trying to get groups in - and though people might think he has "plenty of time" I very much doubt there is much left which meets his cost and criteria.

Maybe all the nay-sayers could do a little of the obviously so very easy leg work and offer him some suggestions.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Shimmy Alcott,

After all it is free

Pamski, ah, missed that bit. Ta.

Jivebaby, sorry, lazy post. I meant in the propensity to cancel/amend bookings as suites them and screw the customer. My premis being the "Ski" in the question is irrelevant, all holiday companies are the same regardless of the type of holiday they supply.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

What you need to know about Crystal: I once did a week's training course with them. They did not mention customer service once all week. (I lasted about five minutes with the company, I hasten to add. Laughing

)

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

As an (ex) large Tour Operator employee, I can sympathise with both sides of the story, but I agree some better compensation or alternative arrangements should be arranged.

Regarding Crystal offering the holiday without a contract with the hotel itself, this is fairly standard practise particularly in the early booking brochure, as a large number of customers do want to book early (such as the OP), and if they don't offer this service than rivals will. The contracting itself isn't normally carried out for most properties until some time after the early-bird brochures are launched. The properties featured in the brochure tend to be those that the operator have had for a number of years so they're pretty sure of recontracting and at roughly what rates, although I suppose there could be a few exceptions.

One other thing that I will say in their defence, is that generally speaking they are better geared up for dealing with a crisis when in resort like last year's Volcano, or the inevitable French air traffic control strikes than the likes of Easyjet or BA who just cancel everything and leave you pretty much to your own devices to get home (I expect a few posts now saying exactly the opposite....!)

snow reports

Whitters, .. in-coming... wink

rayscoops, I have my helmet on already. That is something I have learnt from this forum rather than just an old-school beanie hat Smile

You know it makes sense.

Whitters, good luck, and what is all this fuss about the odd anecdotal problem when there are millions of happy TO hols every year .... off to find my hard hat Very Happy

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Whitters Interesting inside knowledge.

A tour operator not having any sort of contract with a hotel before offering it as available to customers seems crazy to me. But it would explain why our problem has happened.

I also suppose that the TO can afford to risk doing this when it is primarily only the customer who suffers the real inconvenience. But not a good advert for anyone considering taking a package tour over independent travelling. Especially when the TO obviously has no suitable contingencies (or maybe will) in place to deal with any inconvenience to the customer.

Sounds like the package tour industry strive to equal the sort of poor customer service provided by too many big businesses today. I suppose all for better returns for the shareholders rather than any sort of customer service. I suppose when you get big enough - very little matters!

A snowHead

I'm not sure why everyone is obliged to be sympathetic. If you choose to take your holidays with a large group then by definition you are going to have more overall hassle and a harder time when something happens to change things even if its "I put Jon's name down as Jon when the passport clearly says Jonathan". I'm not excusing Crystal's attitude but if you simply must be so inflexible that only Meribel (or whatever) will do and you have a large group its almost inevitable that you'll need new plans if something goes awry. As for baggage limits, yes it would be nice to have more but 20kg plus hand luggage is usually adequate for most and its not going to change unless someone achieves clear market differentiation and price point by offering it.

A snowHead

Mr Marmot, usually the hotels offered early doors are those they consider to be 'safe bets' as they've had them for years, as the Operators themselves really don't want to lose customers or goodwill (contrary to what many may think!)

The early bird brochures were set up partly as a response to customers wanting to book early to ensure they got what they want, although clearly this was your aim and it has unfortunately backfired thanks to the hotelier's actions. The other reason was to encourage early bookings to get away from the late discount culture that was bringing the industry to its knees. This is a gamble for the operators as there will occasionally be cases like yours, but usually these were quite rare, although that's no comfort to you of course....

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

It's an interesting debate. What would happen if the OP had booked it DIY?

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Fatbob I wouldn't want anyone to feel obliged to be sympathethic. Most who've suffered similar aggravation are inclined to be sympathetic, but maybe others couldn't care less. Our tale is just a warning to those who haven't suffered this sort of problem yet, to be prepared for what could happen.

Whilst I agree with you that a group of 17might create 17 times the minor problems than a single traveller would, I can't agree that the size of the group is the cause of the problem or is inherently inflexible. We must also remember that a group of 17 means 17 times the income for the tour operator (ignoring discounts!). Even if we had been only two persons who had booked early in April to secure our choice, we would have been equally disappointed to hear in September from the tour operator that our choice was cancelled and their only options was to go to a completely different resort. We chose Meribel for a reason. There were acceptable options still available in Meribel but we were expected to pay the whole of the price difference. This was unacceptable to us in the circumstances. We obviously subsequently sorted out our own alternative in another resort (I said we weren't inflexible) but we wouldn't use Crystal as the tour operator as a matter of principle due to their inability to secure the holiday they took money from us for five months previously, their poor attitude and poor customer service.

Also many in our group struggle to keep within the 20Kg baggage allowance especially when boots weighing 6Kg are included in that allowance. I'm surprised that others don't seem to have this problem. Must be just us then! I've told the others that wearing clean clothes each day is not what real skiers do. One tatty pair of jeans, socks and underpants coupled with a snowheads on tour T-shirt should be enough for a week for anyone!

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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I suspect that the hotel would simply have returned any deposit and cancelled the booking (but I may be wrong). This far in advance I also think it would have been unlikely that any compensation would have been offered. I suppose if they owned another hotel they may have offered you accommodation there. After all , many hotels will allow you to cancel your booking up to the day of arrival without charge, and you would probably be paying the bill on departure.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Mr Marmot, you have my sympathy. I don't know if you have seen this thread but we have been cancelled too. Our group, (20 odd people) book separately as when we booked together there was always someone in the attic, someone moaning about quality of food, distance from lifts etc. Now the 4 of us who booked Club Med Sestriere have been offered Club Med Serre Chevalier! Bit of a way to meet up for skiing! Evil or Very Mad

Yes, we will get our deposit back but we have missed out on early deals and can't find anywhere else similar. Apparently, they knew they were selling it when they were taking bookings!

After all it is free

Mr Marmot,

Doesn't this story prove that despite the best intentions of the OP and the apparent security of booking with a tour operator the reality is that, occasionally, holiday plans can be severely disrupted regardless of how you book them. It's very unfortunate for Mr Marmot and his group and hopefully they will find something they're happy with. Death and taxes...

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

@ rob@rar - that sounds like a pretty balanced view to me. I think we're saying that (apparent shoddy and insensitive service aside) there's not much any holiday company could have done about this, plus if Mr Marmot went DIY s/he probably still couldn't have got what he wanted now for a similar price etc anyway.

Plus, at the end of the day these people aren't in business to give this stuff away to us! We all saw the industry report stuff, profits dont come easy for holiday co's (except Mr Leary's bunch of shiseters that is)
What can you do?

Bit surprised nobody from the TO dived in apparently as yet though!!

Love the idea of SH stormtroopers, Jivebaby, arf!

Help!!

Can we trust Ski Holiday companies?

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