 Poster: A snowHead
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| Simon Cross wrote: |
| Lizzard wrote: |
| Personally I wouldn't trust detailed resort information on a TO website because I know that it's collected by resort staff who see the task as a pain in the bum and a waste of ski time, and who frequently either make it up or just sign off the previous year's info as being correct and current without checking. |
That's a slightly less tactful way of putting it... 
But now do you see the problem - we could employ lots of people to do it properly, but customers may not value or trust it from us anyway. |
This is probably the nub of the whole thing isn't it.
The main complaint by the TOs seems to be "the margins are extremely tight, we hardly make any money". There's a reliance on huge volume of punters to make even a modest profit, which is why a single punter's loss of £20k in a year's worth of business is significant from her perspective but a trifling drop in the ocean to the TO. Those meagre profits mean that the lowest possible quality staff are employed (school dropout wasters) as indicated above, and the whole TO holiday experience vanishes into a vortex of bare-minimum quality, surly disinterested resort staff, and corporate arrogance (do as you're told, go to this other resort we've arbitrarily picked, or get stuffed).
"we could employ lots of people to do it properly"
Yes. I suggest you do that. Both in resort and in your booking office.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
working with the web can sometimes feel like you're "giving away" valuable intellectual property
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If the resort information is that valuable to you, why don't you pay your staff enough to do it properly? 
(If you want to get into that sort of thing I suggest you go and play on Natives. Though they're much less polite than people on here and will maul you.)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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nozawaonsen, some would say it's a fairly common thread, through the many threads, that skirt this particular topic. You're welcome to disagree, and only on the second time of asking, when asked directly, did I give my opinion, which is all it is.
So without wanting to derail the main theme here, why not start a thread and ask that very same question? A good natured bun fight on the run up to the new season should get people limbered up. But one suggestion; it may be best started in AZ, save 'em moving it.
edit:sp
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
the lowest possible quality staff are employed (school dropout wasters)
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Er, excuse me but I'm a graduate with a postgrad qualification thanks very much.
The majority of TO staff are gap year school leavers on their way to university, graduates or career-break sabbatical types, and in over 10 seasons as a manager I only ever had a very few out and out wasters. Lots of them are inexperienced kids with limited customer service skills and no clue when it comes to the wacky world of paid employment, admittedly.
But ask yourself how much effort you'd put in and how much mountain time you'd sacrifice for an employer which pays you less than £300 a month, treats you like a number, looks to sack a few in every resort at the beginning of each season just to frighten the rest and (during one season a few years ago) fails to pay you for five months?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Lizzard, a very good point.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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That's the point I'm making.
Pay peanuts...
(My comment wasn't a barbed jibe at you by the way. I'm certain you're one of the good ones).
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| Mr Technique wrote: |
| Simon Cross wrote: |
| Lizzard wrote: |
| Personally I wouldn't trust detailed resort information on a TO website because I know that it's collected by resort staff who see the task as a pain in the bum and a waste of ski time, and who frequently either make it up or just sign off the previous year's info as being correct and current without checking. |
That's a slightly less tactful way of putting it...
But now do you see the problem - we could employ lots of people to do it properly, but customers may not value or trust it from us anyway. |
This is probably the nub of the whole thing isn't it.
The main complaint by the TOs seems to be "the margins are extremely tight, we hardly make any money". There's a reliance on huge volume of punters to make even a modest profit, which is why a single punter's loss of £20k in a year's worth of business is significant from her perspective but a trifling drop in the ocean to the TO. Those meagre profits mean that the lowest possible quality staff are employed (school dropout wasters) as indicated above, and the whole TO holiday experience vanishes into a vortex of bare-minimum quality, surly disinterested resort staff, and corporate arrogance (do as you're told, go to this other resort we've arbitrarily picked, or get stuffed).
"we could employ lots of people to do it properly"
Yes. I suggest you do that. Both in resort and in your booking office. |
Oooh, ouch, meeow, offside ref. I'm a die-hard DIYer but this summer, for the first time in decades, I went on a package holiday with... wait for it... Crystal. Simply, the deal was too attractive and I couldn't get near it for same hotel/same weeks by going DIY. Must admit (snob alert) I was concerned about going on a charter flight but need not have been. Thomson Fly are just excellent - bling new plane, plenty of leg room (clever how they reconfigured the seat back to create more space) and very pleasant staff. Some nice touches like the safety film being done by kids (made me watch) and the food was pretty good. All bang on time too.
These days I've grown immune to surly BA cabin crew so it made a welcome change.
The reps in resort were a million million miles away from what you describe - I'd say they were very professional and it was evident that they cared about everything they did.
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Mr Technique said
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I'm certain you're one of the good ones
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I'm not sure there are many good ones due to the fact that as
Lizzard said
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Lots of them are inexperienced kids with limited customer service skills and no clue when it comes to the wacky world of paid employment,
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Of course, there is nothing wrong with that - it's how the business model works for the big boys. And if you expect the above (because as a punter you too have paid peanuts, or the lowest price possible in many cases - please refer to other threads re last minute deals etc) then you should not be surprised.
If, on the other hand you have paid top price for "better" customer service (through the "Finest" programme for example) then you should receive it.
There are loads of things I don't like about the TO model (dodgy flight times, waiting for other planes for transfers, inexperienced staff) but I accept those limitations for the balance between price/convenience/availability/common sense.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bode Swiller, I'd never really had a problem with TO before, but when I did it was obvious that it meant nothing to them - no matter how high I tried to take it. Compare that to when, last New Year the outward journey (DIY) was a disaster (destination ariport and time changed (need to reorganise transfer), then time and destination changed again (re organise transfer) then transfer bus left without us, leaving us stranded at the airport - late at night with two children. Thank God Snowjet were on the ball with someone to answer my calls and questions each time - thus I would happily travel with them again tomorrow and sing their praises.
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Try to avoid the big operators full stop and go with more customer focussed companies - or DIY.
I appreciate that this may not suit everybody of course (Families, larger groups) but it seems to be that in skiing, the bigger the company, the shoddier the service. Just my opinion through personal experience. Also having worked seasons in the French alps for a smaller company, you regularly get to mix with staff from these "other" larger companies and see what the staff recruiting policy is all about....not good and that is a reflection of the management structure I feel.
I actually complained to one of the bigger companies around 6/7 years ago, having made the mistake of booking through them as a "cheap" option, then receiving spectacularly cr@p service and a chalet hosted by monkeys!!
I got 50% of the cost back for a party of 4 after numerous letters to the operations manager (Forget everyone else). Good result I felt, as our holiday was not actually impacted too badly - we just accepted our mistake at the time and got on with the trip, after letting the "resort manager" know how poorly she was doing her job...things improved slightly but not enough to prevent the complaint.
Just get stuck in if you need to, it's in their interests to shut you up and get rid of the complaint before it escalates. tell them what you are prepared to accept by way of compensation and take it from there.
Bring on the snow!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Robbof, I would love to hear the monkey's side of the story.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Robbof, I would love to hear the monkey's side of the story. |
Really? But would you actually be listening?
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| Robbof wrote: |
| I got 50% of the cost back for a party of 4..........Good result I felt, as our holiday was not actually impacted too badly |
A cracker of a result, but do you think it was proportional?
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You know it makes sense.
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| BCjohnny wrote: |
| Robbof wrote: |
| I got 50% of the cost back for a party of 4..........Good result I felt, as our holiday was not actually impacted too badly |
A cracker of a result, but do you think it was proportional? |
To be honest, we just wanted something done - I was quite surprised at what we got as a payout but with the issues that they had as a company it would not have been in their interests to ignore the complaint....we just let them know the score.
Just one example (not going to list them all) - Weekly shopping trip by the staff (not being monkey-ist here!), 15 shopping bags unloaded from the van then dumped on kitchen floor next to the open bin (no lid) and then left to fester in the sun coming through the windows for the rest of the day....we know because it was still there when we got back in the early evening...fresh meat, salmon etc etc....We ate out.
Overall though, the complaint was taken seriously and that was that and with a bit of negotiation we settled on 2 of us going for free as we generally did not eat in the place and used it more as an apartment.
Generally we are DIY all the way but unfortunately as a one off we "Got what we paid for" if you know what I mean?
I know from experience that staff get paid peanuts (No monkey pun intended) but that is no excuse.
Cheers
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Robbof wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Robbof, I would love to hear the monkey's side of the story. |
Really? But would you actually be listening? |
Yes I would. Not saying this applies to you but sometimes people behave like monkeys when confronted by other monkeys.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I never had reps behave like "monkeys". Just I've never really had them provide a "service" for me. Arrive at airport and get directed to bus. Watch as everyone orders skis/passes etc on bus. Arrive at Hotel. Dont see a rep till home time. If we get one - often it's just the bus driver.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Robbof wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Robbof, I would love to hear the monkey's side of the story. |
Really? But would you actually be listening? |
Yes I would. Not saying this applies to you but sometimes people behave like monkeys when confronted by other monkeys. |
ha ha, that is a point well made - but no, it does not apply to me.
But I guess if you are a fan of food poisoning, poor hygiene, staff not turning up etc etc etc then maybe you would class me as a monkey for raising the issues. Who knows??
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Shimmy Alcott wrote: |
| I never had reps behave like "monkeys". Just I've never really had them provide a "service" for me. Arrive at airport and get directed to bus. Watch as everyone orders skis/passes etc on bus. Arrive at Hotel. Dont see a rep till home time. If we get one - often it's just the bus driver. |
Yep - that would be a reps job. Or even a transfer rep if you want to split hairs?
The post was actually referring to chalet staff - but I see where you are coming from  , hence I don't use TO's....none of it is rocket science is it?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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"Big trough of baked beans garnished with a couple of dead dogs". Basil was right.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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On the whole, I think TO's do a very impressive job when faced with the combination of the considerable logistical issues of a ski holiday and dealing with the general public, who are let's face it, generally awful (Hell is other people).
Last March we emerged from the undignified scrum of the carousel at Chambery and loaded our own bags onto the coach due to the risk of them being left behind by a surly french coach driver straight from central casting. The rep throughout was charm personified, despite her being visibly frazzled. We then set-off only 1/2 hour late, but stopped before we exited the airport compound and stayed there for another 45 minutes watching the rep make a series of frantic phone calls and nearly bursting into tears about 3 times. The reason for the delay, we found out later, was a passenger who refused to go any further because she suffered from bad knees and claimed the coach leg room wasn't big enough (let's leave aside, for the moment, the question of how this woman was expecting to be transported from the airport to resort when she booked the holiday). The woman's chosen method of complaint was not to speak to the rep, who was sitting not more than 2 meters away from her, but to email the MD of the TO directly from the coach. He then phoned the rep directly which, quite understandably, sent her into a bit of a tailspin. The resolution, it may shock you to learn, was for the woman to be moved to one of the front seats. Why the woman couldn't have leant forward, tapped rep girl on the shoulder and requested a front seat is beyond me. The incredibly selfish and frankly bizarre act of this one woman delayed an entire coach and caused the rep girl no end of stress.
So, where's my damn compensation?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Dr John, hilarious. WTF was the silly cow doing on a ski holiday if her knees are so trashed she can't get onto a bloody coach?
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Dr John, enjoyed that, a fine example of an idiotic Billy Bunter at play. By the way, bad knees / ski holiday!?! Hopefully the rep found a way to get even. I think people get the holiday they deserve.
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Dr John, so absurd, she must have been the mystery shopper
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I had an extremely upset rep call me last year (whilst I was teaching a lesson), so me and my class diverted all the way a very long red then up a lift then a bit of a way down another run to find the family stood there, hand on hips, glaring, grrrrr, etc.
What’s up – says me.
Are you in charge - says dad
Yep – says me
Well we have been waiting to ski down there for almost an hour and your rep is being extremely unhelpful – say dad
Well you can’t yet, it’s be open soon I think, but it may not open till tomorrow, who knows – says me
Can’t you call your office – says dad
Won’t do any use, some things just take time – says me
I motion to the rep to join my class and off we head – mummy and baby penguins stiley
Should point out that the reason they couldn’t ski the off piste route they wanted to is that the pisteaires had roped it off as they were exploding the ridges above with dynamite, causing lots of avalanches to run over the route – shocking reason to ruin their run.
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Agreed the woman seemed like a right pain, but I was not aware that the ability/fitness to ski was a pre-requisite to taking a TO package holiday in the alps ? maybe she thrahed he knees sking over the last 30 years but still liked holidaying in the mountains.
I am surprised the MD dealt with the query within 30 minutes of receiving an email
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Dr John, that's great.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Members of the public, what are they like. |
we are all someone's "member of the public". I was a total freakin' nightmare to various organisations today. O2 got special treatment and the folks that badly installed the new washing machine now think I am unhinged, a total raving nutter. Anyway, I feel better for it.
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You know it makes sense.
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And talking of Tour Ops, this just in:
TUI to slash UK staff numbers
TUI Travel is to make a raft of redundancies at its UK HQ, with hundreds of staff thought to be facing the axe.
The company told staff today that it needs to make a round of redundancies and will be “promoting the voluntary redundancy scheme” and “reviewing current vacancies”.
In a statement issued today, the company said: “Having successfully delivered significant synergy benefits since the merger [with First Choice] three years ago, the business is entering a new phase in its development.
“Like all leading, profitable companies, Tui UK reviews its cost base on an ongoing basis to enable the continued growth of the business and to give customers the best possible holidays.
“The global economic climate continues to be challenging, and there will always be external factors (like the ash crisis) that are beyond our control. However, a low cost base means the business can maintain profitability even when faced with unexpected events.”
TUI has said the job losses are unlikely to affect frontline staff.
Less staff = better holidays apparently.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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“Having successfully delivered significant synergy benefits since the merger [with First Choice] three years ago, the business is entering a new phase in its development."
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Is especially warming news for the staff...
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Poster: A snowHead
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nozawaonsen, yes, wonderful corporate speak... "sorry mate, your job just got beneficially synergised in a significant way"
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Luckily my tour operator has assured me that there will be no cut backs in their staffing levels
In fact Mrs Boris is looking at booking the apartment right now 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Then MrsW had to go to Jo'burg - so chose to go with SAA. Business return, about 4 grand.
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Out of interest - was it worth the cost, at about £200 per hour of flying time? 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
And talking of Tour Ops, this just in:
[i]TUI to slash UK staff numbers
TUI Travel is to make a raft of redundancies at its UK HQ, with hundreds of staff thought to be facing the axe.
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I hope that our new Snowheads contributor Simon Cross isn't affected by this.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bergmeister, she was interviewing recruits for the country head out there, so compared to the perceived risk of getting the wrong person, the company probably got its money's worth (she is good as what she does... and sometimes reads my posts )
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Well if whoever wrote that appalling TUI press release gets synergised, there's some justice in the world.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Some nice touches like the safety film being done by kids (made me watch) and the food was pretty good. |
We had this for our "summer" (first week in May and is poured with rain but anyway) holiday. It made me (and my 3yr old) smile and watch.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Lizzard wrote: |
| Members of the public, what are they like. |
we are all someone's "member of the public". I was a total freakin' nightmare to various organisations today. O2 got special treatment and the folks that badly installed the new washing machine now think I am unhinged, a total raving nutter. Anyway, I feel better for it. |
I politely suggested to the customer service rep at my credit card company that perhaps I might speak to his boss because his endless repetition of "At the end of the day the proof your bank rejected your direct debit is the CC statement which shows you are in arrears" wasn't actual evidence that would resolve my issue. I have evidence from the bank who were more than happy to confirm that said CC company hadn't requested a DD payment. Guess whose boss has been given a stiff customer feedback about mental capacity of his frontline staff?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| I politely suggested... |
That's just not playing the game. Gotta go mental.
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Well having worked all my life in various Customer Service roles - I am pretty sure I know which approach gets results and which gets "accidentally" left at the bottome of the pile or lost 
When I call any helpdesk now I always aim to be polite and reasonable.
Unless it is the Tesco Credit Card line - who pee me off for asking me for my CC number, after just having asked me to key it in
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FAQ
