 Poster: A snowHead
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Wayne, I think you are probably right. The very flexibility which makes the DIY option so attractive to a small number is also the very same thing that makes it difficult to do on a large scale. That said flexibility is not the only reason people sometimes decide to take things into their own hands.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| nozawaonsen wrote: |
| Wayne, I think you are probably right. The very flexibility which makes the DIY option so attractive to a small number is also the very same thing that makes it difficult to do on a large scale. That said flexibility is not the only reason people sometimes decide to take things into their own hands. |
The flexibility thing is interesting.
Clearly there are some very well informed people on this forum, but for those who are not industry insiders, the way this works for us now is as follows:
1. Our (charter) flights are organised based on an outbound and an inbound "flight pair"
2. Most tour operators don't make ANY money until at least 80% of the plane is full. Therefore having people travelling on what's called "odd durations" causes a problem with filling planes (if your business relies on the charter model)
3. The other part to the jigsaw is the accommodation. We tend to commit up front to fill hotels or alternatively we own & run our own chalets. "Empty beds" are clearly something we try to avoid. As we offer over 1000 hotels, our investment and risk as a business with accommodation runs into quite a big number, as you can imagine.
4. Finally you have the resort transfer. This is not simple either. If we had people turning up from the airport every day of the week it would be a much more expensive operation. I believe in the past Crystal tried offering private taxi transfers for more exclusive product, but customers were not willing to pay extra for them.
So to offer flexibility in flying we would need to have a rather different model to the one we have now. As someone mentioned above it's quite a leap but one we're working on.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Simon Cross wrote: |
........
4. Finally you have the resort transfer. This is not simple either. If we had people turning up from the airport every day of the week it would be a much more expensive operation. I believe in the past Crystal tried offering private taxi transfers for more exclusive product, but customers were not willing to pay extra for them. |
On this point, we asked about a private transfer (arranged by Crystal) when looking to book a few years ago. The downside was that if anything changed in the transfer e.g. change of resort airport, roads closed etc, we would be "on our own". The TUI person made it clear that the "we'll get you home, come what may" only applied to those using the Crystal transfer bus (and I appreciate why). So, it was a more convenient/pleasant but also a more expensive and riskier option.
(... and by coincidence, our return trip was the half-term weekend (Feb 06?) of the huge snow dump in the 3V area which caused traffic chaos in the Belleville valley and disrupted many flight schedules. I have to say that TUI did a great job in keeping us in touch with what was happening re the delayed pick-up and got us all on a flight back that day, but it would/could have been a different matter with a private transfer e.g. what airport to head for as a starter, as this changed whilst we were on the bus!).
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| Quote: |
Hotels need to run on a volume basis and this means 7/14 nights per stay.
I am not saying this is the right way to keep everyone happy but is for the vast majority of people who take a ski trip from the UK. Hotels, TO's, etc are always going to (have to) go for the majority and simply can not work around the foibles of a tiny number of people not happy with the way things are.
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Well if it was all as simple as that, and the TO market was providing what the vast majority of people wanted, why are they struggling with such a major drop in numbers when, overall, ski resorts seem to have been doing OK the last few years? Of course the DIY market is small, but it's rapidly growing. Easyjet flies thousands of people into Geneva and other resorts every week - as do other scheduled airlines. 15 years ago the picture was very different. We were asked why people do DIY as the Crystal man, at any rate, recognises that this is an important commercial consideration for TOs.
As for hotels having to go for Sat/Sat or Sun/Sun that doesn't seem to operate all over - if I want to go for a holiday in Devon, or Mull, or Paris, I don't have to book for a week and go on a Saturday. And I believe the same holds true if you want to ski in the USA. I understand that American skiers, who generally have very tight holiday allowances, have demanded that the market respond to their need for flexible trips.
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| The last two seasons have seen the UK market shrink by 13 and 11 per cent respectively. If that trend continues, 2010/11 will be the worst season this century. |
(Source: http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/skiing/travellers-guide-the-201011-ski-season-2088176.html)
We've discussed before what this sort of statistic means. Does it mean the number of Brits skiing has shrunk by over a quarter, or that a smaller number are are travelling with the kind of operators who do surveys?
Obviously the recession will be having an effect - as the shrinking number of cheap flights testifies. But to claim that the growing DIY market is irrelevant to TOs, who are providing exactly what all but an insignificant minority want, is a bit ostrich-like IMV.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w, several of our local hotels, which until recently were used by UK tour ops have now been sold and are being converted to apartments. Many of them were in dire need of repair. Many of these also took non=UK guests, and you could often arrive and depart any day of the week, with the possible exception of February holidays.
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| pam w wrote: |
| if I want to go for a holiday in Devon, or Mull, or Paris, I don't have to book for a week and go on a Saturday. |
True. But ski holidays are obviously completely different! Our Sestriere hotel has been sold so they've offered us Serre Chevalier instead. Well, it has mountains  .
Oddly enough, I can't believe that anyone booking a sightseeing holiday in Rome would be offered Paris. Yes, it's in a different country but well, it still has sights!
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why are they struggling with such a major drop in numbers when, overall, ski resorts seem to have been doing OK the last few years?
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Drop in UK skier numbers following the plummet of the pound. Resort management isn't daft, so has gone after other business and we are now seeing increasing numbers of Dutch, Belgians and East Europeans. TOs rely on the Brit market, resorts don't.
I know TUI and other operators are certainly concerned about what they like to term 'disintermediation' because I've heard it at least twice direct from the horse's mouth (though the horse in question has since left TUI and pushed off to start a new company with his mistress). That's also why Mr Cross is on here grilling you lot on a Sunday evening when he ought to be helping out with the Yorkshire puddings. 
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We tend to go TO but really only for the ease of transfer. There's normally only the two of us and we really don't want to be lugging all our gear around on changes of public transport or hiring a car just for the transfer. On the whole I have no complaints at all about the TO holidays we've been on, we never have to wait on the bus for other flights (perhaps other flights wait for the Gatwick flight to get in  ) and don't use the reps services at all. When we have gone DIY it's when there's been an easy transfer option laid on by the resort such as the bookable minibus at Obertauern.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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maggi and bloody good ones too.You did book a Club Med and I think they only had one of them in Sestriere which is probably wht there isn't an alternative. It doesn't solve your problem of needing accommodation in Sestriere though.
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| pam w wrote: |
| 15 years ago the picture was very different. We were asked why people do DIY as the Crystal man, at any rate, recognises that this is an important commercial consideration for TOs. |
I think you're missing the point. TO's only care about DIY'ers as an untapped market or view them as they would any type of competition, eg. Why are my customers going to the other shop to buy their bread ?
Slightly off topic as doesn’t involve ski trips, so I'm not talking about winter stuff here BTW.
On all of the large scale summer trips we have (from last Jan) banned anyone who wants to DIY any part of a UK based trip.
Why did we do this ? (can't find the Grrrrrr/Mad/shock icon so ..... )
Simple, on some jobs we have over 150 coaches. Am not going to go into the complexities of running this many coaches within tachograph laws on jobs that can have up to 7,000 people arriving and departing from over 20 locations around the UK, etc, etc, but please just accept that when a job can last for 48 hours the need to have teams of drivers dotted around the UK does require a little pre-planning. (when people tap their calculators to work out "their costs", why do they never factor in drivers accommodation ? – over £20grand some weekends)
We get a (very) few calls from people who; need to get back for a meeting, don't like coaches, my little girl gets coach sick, can't make the pickup time, can I bring my dog, etc, etc. And, to put it bluntly these few people just ain't worth the extra work involved. Oh and yes, I do fully understand that that’s not what all the “how to run a business” books will tell you it should be. But in the real world ……
The absolute need to ensure that a job – which may have taken over 2 years to plan - flows, can be (and almost always have been in the past) severely disrupted by one or two families that wanted to DIY some section or other.
Not talking Crystal winter size here BTW, we take between 25,000 and 27,500 people per year in the summer months on UK based jobs. I think Crystal take around a gazillion people skiing.
Back on (winter stuff) topic
It’s the norm in Europe, not just on ski holidays but in life in general, to operate on a weekly basis. If you own a hotel you will get bookings from Sat to Sat or Sun to Sun. If someone wants to rent a room from Wed to Wed what are you going to do with the room whilst it’s empty. You “may” be lucky enough to get another Wed to Wed booking the following week but it’s unlikely.
Ski resorts have only a few months a year to generate their year’s income. This income is needed to fund upgrades/maintenance to the hotel, some essential staff wages during the closed season, taxes, mortgage payments, etc, etc. So they will have to generate as much income as they can, when they can, and they means running schedules that “most” people want during the winter. ie, weekly – weekend to weekend - rotas.
I do look at the DIY market and ask myself why people do. The only reason that stacks up is that they want to. Nothing wrong with this, best reason to do something IMO. This is, to me anyway, an un-tappable market.
Some people do look at TO’s and then decide to run a DIY trip but these people (swaying between DIY and TO) are a tiny section of an already small (UK) DIY market. Lets face it, most people either head off down to Thomas Cook and search the web on TO sites, or they start to organise their DIY trip for next year (or at least think about it) as soon as they get back from the last one. We spend a large amount of cash on marketing, that is marketing to people who want to book a TO ski trip. Should we divert some of the budget away from a probable market to a tiny possible market?. Sorry but it just doesn’t stack up.
An old Chinese proverb says:
If I have a shop selling bread there are many thing I can do to attract customers away from other bread shops, but that is almost nothing I can do (that would make commercial sense) to try and attract people who make their own (normally more expensive and sometimes extremely idiosyncratic) bread.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Wayne,
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And, to put it bluntly these few people just ain't worth the extra work involved.
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I think that is exactly the point. I can see exactly why these type of people could be infuriating when you are trying to manage complex logistics, spread across different countries and at the same time trying to keep ever rising costs down. You run a business after all.
At the same time it is the very fact that by using a TO I am having to fit to their timetable, join the herd of "gazillions" and perhaps just occasionally get a hint of the fact that the company thinks I "ain't worth the extra work" that makes me want to try and do things more on my own terms.
Of course there are companies that provide more of a "bespoke" service - a helicopter to Lech please - but they tend to be pretty pricey!
But it seems to me from what you say that for you the more individual custom market is one you can do without. It isn't worth it and doesn't make commercial sense. And for those individuals they would probably be happier going DIY anyway.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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When we went with mainstream TO's like Crystal we always took the self drive option that the TO offered in their brochure, the resort staff seemed please that they had some hillmans that weren't getting dragged out of bed in the middle of the night to get the transfer coach. (The time we had to vacate the chalet by was also made clear!)
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| nozawaonsen wrote: |
Wayne,
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And, to put it bluntly these few people just ain't worth the extra work involved.
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I think that is exactly the point. I can see exactly why these type of people could be infuriating when you are trying to manage complex logistics, spread across different countries. |
Now, now, now, you know I didn't say that 
Unless you count Yorkshire as a different country (we do over here in Lancs BTW ).
I was talking about UK based trips.
On our ski trips, people can arrange their own transport if they like ( details here)
This is just my opinion so I may be wrong here, but I think that:
"Most" people just want to book a holiday they like the look, flights are laid on with a transfer coach when they arrive - with no long wait, hotel is expecting them, lift passes handed to them as soon as they arrive, the ski equipment is pre-booked and waiting for them, if booked they have a guaranteed English speaking instructor. Etc, etc.
Oh and they don’t want herding around. They don’t want a welcome/sales meeting but they do want stuff laid on for them, evening activities, etc with the proviso that A] they don’t want to pay extra for these B] they will decide if they want to take up the offer or not with no pressure from the reps. Oh and the reps are on-hand if needed otherwise they want to be left alone to enjoy their holiday.
Other;
They want to coach to stop outside the hotel
They want to meal time to be not too restrictive
They want a veg option on each menu
The want enough hooks in the room for the ski gear
They want etc, etc, etc
And of course
They want there to have been a blizzard all the previous week and perfect powder and sun-shine all week they are in resort.
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You know it makes sense.
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Wayne, there you go with th sensible stuff again. What are you thinking about?
Boredsurfing, actually that's really irritating because you can't get the music on and start cleaning everything because there's some lazy punter still in bed so you have to creep around all morning. And then the bug wants breakfast when he finally gets up! Rude or what.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Lizzard, nope, we were lovely and headed off at 7.00am telling the folk to have a lie in, Silver ski staff still got up to see us off, none of the others did 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Wayne
It's probably not worth me contributing much, as I'm the "get me there, leave me alone, get me back" kind of punter. I buy a pass, normally, and that's it.
Most of my recent trips have been to Canada (since 1999), and no diy package can match the (admittedly) simple trips I've enjoyed, as regards price, which is important to me. Incidently, FWIW, none were with Crystal. As regards travel to Europe, it's always been a bit of a mix, diy for choice/something specific, TO for a last minute cheapy.
The market seems pretty well covered, but the only things that I would maybe like to see are a pared down to the bone trip for more seasoned travellers that perhaps don't want diy, and less hammering of solos. Though as both are not good for business, I won't hold my breath.
The confusion that some have with diy is, outside of the TO robbing that goes on during peak dates, it's not fundamentally cheaper, per se, if you're honest about the actual costs, for the majority that don't have contacts/accom out there. It's, as you say, more a case of "want to", which again is fine. At least you can see preaching to the hand is a complete waste of time.
Good luck with your efforts.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Colin B,
hi colin. where are you staying in st anton?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Information and transparency are the main things I'd like TOs to improve. I don't think it is unreasonable to want to know that what I am booking will suit my needs. I'm not a very experienced skier (I stick to blues/greens) and I have a back problem. I ski within my limits but I don't want to burger up my back getting my bag from bus to room or lugging my skis while I walk up/down steep slippery paths en route to/from the piste. I don't want to simply read that the place is "200m to the nearest lift". That is totally inadequate information; I was caught out like that in Vallandry. No it wasn't far from the piste, but at the stage of skiing I was at, getting to the lesson meeting point was a nightmare. When you book privately you have the means of asking for additional information. In my experience TOs don't give you the option.
For example I want to know things like:
- where the hotel/apartment is on a resort map
- where the transfer bus drops/collects
- whether there is guaranteed assistance with luggage.
- if there's a resort shuttle bus, where it stops
All these things and many more could be simply satisfied by the TO offering a really detailed "resort info pack". It wouldn't have to be printed in the brochure, but could be an additional online download. If they really are proud of their product, why not create a TO specific forum with a discussion board per resort and someone on hand to keep abreast of discussions and answer queries?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| All these things and many more could be simply satisfied by the TO offering a really detailed "resort info pack". It wouldn't have to be printed in the brochure, but could be an additional online download. If they really are proud of their product, why not create a TO specific forum with a discussion board per resort and someone on hand to keep abreast of discussions and answer queries? |
Great feedback, thank you.
I'm pleased to say that we are already doing a lot of this, and have been since last season. Not sure we are shouting loud enough about it by the sounds of it!
Apologies to those who are not interested for what follows:
1. Information Pack
All our customers have access to a resort information pack just before they depart. See here for details:
http://www.crystalski.co.uk/informationpack
- All of the content comes from our overseas team so is 100% relevant and up to date with regards to your resort.
- We provide a contact phone number for our reps in resort case you have any questions.
- We are also integrating a forum tool so you can ask questions online, and the correct person in the business will respond.
- You can print out all of the info provided if you prefer to read on paper
- We are asking our resort teams to run Twitter accounts so you can all follow along with what's happening in resort. Example here
2. Q&A forum
You can ask us anything here: http://help.crystalski.co.uk
The same thing happens on Facebook all the time, and we've ramped up our use of the tool for this season:
http://www.facebook.com/crystalski
3. Accessibility info
We are working with DSUK and other organisations to source information regarding accessibility within the resort.
This will cover things for wheelchair users as well as those with partial sight, walking problems etc.
It's a big focus for us since we've been working with DSUK for a while now.
I will send the rest of your feedback to our team here to have a look at. Hope this helps.[/url]
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Colin B,
cheers
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Simon Cross, sounds like a good idea!
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Simon Cross, thanks for that, BUT why is the resort info pack only available to those who've already booked, just before travel? It's when I am planning that I want to know the detail, not when it's too late to make changes on finding out the location of the accommodation is quite unsuitable.
Surely there is no loss to you to make such detail freely available to all? On the contrary, you stand to gain as people discover that with you they can find out all the details before booking - it'd surely lessen later complaint too?
The Facebook page is good and does seem to be monitored by your staff. I have asked a question on there and await the response!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
It's when I am planning that I want to know the detail
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I'd strongly agree with that. Having done nearly all my TO holidays in the days before much was available on the internet I found it intensely frustrating not being able to get a clearer idea of the resort geography, and where the proposed accommodation fitted in - and this was always a key consideration for me.
And Wayne - I wouldn't claim to have done a huge lot of hotel staying in Europe (as I much prefer to have my own place) but I have yet to stay a Sat/Sat or Sun/Sun week anywhere. I agree that in French ski resorts (and others, too) this has been the normal pattern, but outside the Alps I'm far from convinced. I just tried to book a couple of days next week in a nice hotel in Toulouse, chosen at random - no problem.
It's not about price - there are expensive packages and cheap ones, expensive DIY options and cheap ones. It's wanting freedom and flexibility. When I knew nothing about ski holidays it was really good to get a package and the "catered chalet" option suited us very well for several excellent holidays (with a small operator - our only experience of a big one - Inghams - was a disappointment because they didn't deliver what had been promised) but it has never occurred to me to get any other packages - e.g. for summer holidays. It's tautological to say that "the only reason people do DIY is because they want to" and if TOs want to stop the slide in their market they do need to think about what they can do to provide more alternatives. I'm not a bit surprised nobody wanted to buy a pricey private taxi transfer where they paid through the nose to save going on a coach. But if that enabled them to fly from, and to, a quiet airport and get to their accommodation with no traffic jams, they might well pay. People do self evidently pay for private taxi transfers - I go to Geneva airport a lot and its full of them (I am an unpaid private taxi transfer driver....). Few people have enough dosh to pay a couple of hundred euros premium just to save a bit of hassle with a coach and get to the same place, on the same day, an hour or so earlier.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Wayne wrote: |
| It’s the norm in Europe, not just on ski holidays but in life in general, to operate on a weekly basis. |
I must be living in a parallel universe. Apart from ski holidays, I have never contacted a hotel, either in Britain, Europe or America who told me that they only booked by the week. A few give discounts is you book a longer stay but that's it. Seriously, do other people find this is true? 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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maggi, absolutely agreed - standard in ski resorts, but not otherwise.
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maggi, I have worked in the Hotel industry for 36 years and only 'Package holiday hotels' work on a week only basis.
(I started really young!)
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You know it makes sense.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| maggi, absolutely agreed - standard in ski resorts, but not otherwise. |
Not even in ski resorts, although it does seem to be more common there. We stayed in the Ancolie in Champagny-en-Vanoise for 8 nights over New year in 2005, and did not either arrive or depart on Saturday. Many others arrived and left during our stay. Most of the hotels in Monetier are available by the night, I've had guests (mistakenly) arrive a day early in half-term and still find a bed for the night. We've also had short breaks in hotels in various resorts.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| maggi, only 'Package holiday hotels' work on a week only basis |
Yeah but that's not what he said! (And I'm sure you started very young ).
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Butterfly wrote: |
Simon Cross, thanks for that, BUT why is the resort info pack only available to those who've already booked, just before travel? It's when I am planning that I want to know the detail, not when it's too late to make changes on finding out the location of the accommodation is quite unsuitable.
Surely there is no loss to you to make such detail freely available to all? On the contrary, you stand to gain as people discover that with you they can find out all the details before booking - it'd surely lessen later complaint too?
The Facebook page is good and does seem to be monitored by your staff. I have asked a question on there and await the response! |
Hi there
Yes we know we have a little way to go to provide detailed up front info when booking.
Tour operators traditionally work around brochure launch cycles, so getting the whole team's heads around this here t'Internet can be a bit of a challenge. Also there is the issue that it's far from free to collect and maintain all of this info. We employ just a handful of staff in this area, and with more than 1,000 hotels to worry about they are fully stretched most of the time. That's why we're using more of our overseas team to provide the "on the ground" info first hand which makes sense given we've got the largest team overseas of any operator.
Re the Facebook page, you can expect a response tomorrow with any luck!
Thanks again for the useful feedback.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Simon Cross wrote: |
| given a bit of time hopefully both myself and the rest of the team here can get involved and be a productive addition to what is a rather entertaining forum. |
I have a sportsman's bet with myself that a year from now, your post count will be barely any more than it is today.
It's a win win situtation, admittedly.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Mr Technique wrote: |
| Simon Cross wrote: |
| given a bit of time hopefully both myself and the rest of the team here can get involved and be a productive addition to what is a rather entertaining forum. |
I have a sportsman's bet with myself that a year from now, your post count will be barely any more than it is today.
It's a win win situtation, admittedly. |
 Aah, you just won again here by the looks of it...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Tell you what then, I'll bet you £40.
If I win, I'll give it to the OP.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Simon Cross wrote: |
Tour operators traditionally work around brochure launch cycles, so getting the whole team's heads around this here t'Internet can be a bit of a challenge. Also there is the issue that it's far from free to collect and maintain all of this info. We employ just a handful of staff in this area, and with more than 1,000 hotels to worry about they are fully stretched most of the time. That's why we're using more of our overseas team to provide the "on the ground" info first hand which makes sense given we've got the largest team overseas of any operator.
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Take a page out of WTSS's book - howabout getting your clients to email a little 'trip report' in after a holiday - those that do get a voucher for £xx off there next trip with crystal - and you can then start populating your 'resort book' (on the web of course) with all the little nuggets from other guests who have been there done that... ok so you're team still has to do all the factual stuff but then they don't need to recommend all the bars/restaurants/mountain eats. Plus you'll be sure that some guests will note something (from their viewpoint) that hasn't appeared obvious to the team at all.
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bertie bassett, you want the job of trawling through all the tripe to find stuff you'd even start to think about posting on the website? And who's going to correct all the spelling/make it into something approaching readable?
I think not.
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Simon Cross, I seems that the "norm" is to give some glorified vague description of the accomodation and services offered, however, IMV it's just setting you up for dissapointed customers. OTOH people might book with the TO that seems more open and more knowledgeable. On the same issue, re. Shimmie's story, a sales rep that lies (if proven by the transcripts) should be fire, and the customer should receive an apology. If transcrips go missing (maybe the team manager does not want to lose a salesman), than the person in charge with kepping records should be reprimanded (say, more than 2 missing transcrips per year and you're out)
Also, you mention the efforts made by you to work around the volcanic ash problem. Keep in mind, that was upper managent at work. Many local staff do not have the skill, patience or indeed the incentive to make the extra effort.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Has this thread morphed into "how can Crystal Ski make more money"?
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Has this thread morphed into "how can Crystal Ski make more money"?
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Well if it has, there's no harm in the UK having a thriving and profitable holiday industry - thriving and profitable because it has learnt to develop and respond to customers' requirements, is there?
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FAQ
