 Poster: A snowHead
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Thanks for all your comments and views. The scale of this increases daily with instructors abroad posting from their experience last week.
Also just got this information from someone who was in Austria last week:
It appears that Austrian resorts weren't affected quite as badly as the Italian. It seems that on the whole, Chris paid a percentage of the hotel bills (around half in most cases) leaving schools to pay the balance, which for the most part they did eg he paid 66% of the Faberwirt in Auffach.
However, he owed ski hire and lift passes in Wildschonau and Kitzbuhel - lots of money and there was police involvement. A colleague was detained by the police for several hours until the school bailed her out. This was purely because she was a SE rep so they held her hostage on account of SE's unpaid debts! On average, Chris pays his bills 8 months in arrears (Oct/Nov time, when he gets the balance from the following year's trips) but he's not going to be so lucky any more as hotels are refusing to give him credit.
Here are the schools which were in Austria last week (I think - unless they also cancelled), should you wish to contact them:
Aberconwy - 01492 593243
Corby - 01536 303120
Mossbourne - 02085 255200
Alcester
Tile Hill Wood - 02476 426216
St Josephs - 01189 661000
Longsands - 01480 353535
Hockerill - 01279 658451
Flint - 01352 732268
It really is awful. The amounts for each instructor, pupil or coach are big but put together it is huge.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| noskitrip wrote: |
Here are the schools which were in Austria last week (I think - unless they also cancelled), should you wish to contact them:
Aberconwy
Corby - 01536 303120
Mossbourne - 02085 255200
Alcester
Tile Hill Wood - 02476 426216
St Josephs - 01189 661000
Longsands - 01480 353535
Hockerill - 01279 658451
Flint - 01352 732268
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Interesting. I was booked to travel with one of the schools above (as an instructor). I had agreed to work this week with SE many months ago, letters of confirmation in place etc. Then about 3 weeks ago I contacted them to firm up travel arrangements. Nothing could be confirmed, not the hotel, the resort, the travel times, nothing.
Continued to contact SE on a regular basis, always to be told the same ... no news. One week before the trip was due to depart, I was told the ferry crossing had not been booked and they were struggling to get one at this late stage (half term weekend). Finally, 2 days before the trip was due to depart, SE still could not provide details, so I pulled out. And thankfully so.
I know this does not help those who were stung out in resorts or those schools whose trips never got off the ground, but it's another indication of the typical chaos and disorganistaion SE are becoming renowned for.
Maybe, just maybe, someone has some positive experiences of SE, I wonder? Anyone ?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Maybe, just maybe, someone has some positive experiences of SE, I wonder? Anyone ?
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it would seem not. From what i have been told these are, allegedly, the kind of things that have been going on for the past year or so:
school & adult groups being cancelled at the very last minute as there was no confirmed accommodation for them in resort because the hotel hadn't been paid for this year or last.
school groups actually arriving at the hotel only to be told they wouldn't accommodate them as bills hadn't been paid.
school groups being told at the very last minute by the coach companies that they wouldn't take them as they hadn't been paid.
coach companies threatening to drive home mid-week without the groups because bills hadn't been paid.
hotels threatening to "throw" people out midweek for the same reason.
ski equipment hire shops refusing to hire out equipment or have anything to do with SE because bills hadn't been paid - this only became apparent when the groups in resort actually tried to get the equipment they had already paid SE for.
similar thing with lift passes.
groups paying for a certain number of instructors for their party and being given less.
local ski schools refusing to supply instructors to make up the shortfall because bills hadn't been paid.
SE instructors and reps not being paid - don't hold your breath guys!!!
as has been said SE seem to have traditionally paid bills almost a year behind.. whether the above events have been caused by a sudden and widespread withdrawal of credit & refusal to accept payment on that basis, or as a result of something more deceptive i don't know.
I do know that SE are still arranging trips for Easter. Hmmm......
you do have to ask.. where is all the money going? I am told that SE are not operating as a limited company but as a sole trader. Does this mean there is no way for affected people to get their money back?
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Even if it was a limited company, if it's bust it's bust.
As a sole trader you have the chance to go back against any assets the sole trader has in his/her name.
Limited company, no recourse.
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ccl, Sounds normal these days. They will be taking a stake in the business before you know it, but then I doubt Skiing Europe is "too big to fail" 
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what has happened to the money? why aren't the council pursuing ski europe for it? If ski europe are solvent they should give it back? Why is the company still allowed to operate. The council sound pretty incompetent and I'm glad I don't live in Devon.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| snowymum wrote: |
| what has happened to the money? why aren't the council pursuing ski europe for it? If ski europe are solvent they should give it back? Why is the company still allowed to operate. The council sound pretty incompetent and I'm glad I don't live in Devon. |
As much as I think it'd be good for everyone if SE stopped trading now, in general you can't just stop a company trading as soon as a dispute arises, otherwise the economy would ground to a halt. I'd imagine the council(s) will eventually sue SE and hopefully recoup the money. A court might then force SE to stop trading but until then you can only hope the bad publicity will stop others getting stung by going elsewhere or require payment in full in advance.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| snowymum wrote: |
| what has happened to the money? why aren't the council pursuing ski europe for it? If ski europe are solvent they should give it back? Why is the company still allowed to operate. The council sound pretty incompetent and I'm glad I don't live in Devon. |
have you read the article which ccl posted?
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A reasonable question smithski. It is very clear, snowymum, that the Council is taking immediate action to shift the financial burden of the lost holiday from the parents to itself but equally clear that this does not mean writing off that money. Perhaps you missed this sentence:
'We will then work with the college to recover this money in due course."
I referenced that article and made the comment about our having a stake in the matter as taxpayers without intending it to be a criticism of the Council"s action which seems sound and responsible. And with the resources of a local authority to hand, the legal pursuit of Skiing Europe is likely to be more forceful than the school on its own could manage, which in the circumstances is no bad thing it would seem.
And please noskitrip don't divert this thread with that hoary old myth about a school ski trip being a free holiday for teachers. I can tell you from good experience - my own and all the former colleagues I have known who have been involved - it is bloody hard work. Have a thought for the staff involved in that awful chairlift accident, for example, before making snide comments.
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You know it makes sense.
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ccl - I'm sorry I didn't read the link just your comment underneath it. I am glad the council are pursuing the company for the money.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Some school trip organisers might be seduced by the special incentives that the likes of SE were offering, but it can come down to just the trip price on offer. For Feb half term 2011 anything less than £1000 for a week in a French resort by coach with 4 hours of lessons/day was the going rate. At that price it's not surprisngly difficult to get a group of 30-40 and so the viability of the whole trip is uncertain. Another TO offers a price of £800 and perhaps you then have a trip that can run.
We went with Skibound to Serre Chevalier and had a great trip. Highly recommended. Shame about the lift queues though, but that's Feb half term!
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Poster: A snowHead
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noskitrip, the teachers were also, presumably, going to be giving up their half term holiday?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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dw832, hmmm - just back from Wengen at halfterm - flights, decent half board hotel, 2 double rooms for a family of 4, train transfers, airport parking, passes and ski hire for the kids, with a total of 8 nights and 8 days on the snow for £1250 each plus money for lunch. Switzerland is not that cheap... £1000 for 6 days skiing in France with coach travel doesn't seem a bargain. Another reason why we have always kept our kids away from school holidays - other than the crappy resorts chosen, the low number of hours skied a day on such trips and the fact our kids would be much better skiers than the teachers...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think school ski trips are really best for kids whose families don't ski, and who are beginners - or pretty close. There are loads of kids, in most schools, who've never had the chance to go skiing, and for them a ski trip can be fantastic. My son in law has done quite a few school ski trips, and he's found them very rewarding (if hard work) because the kids have got such a lot out of it. I'm not sure he'd feel so motivated to give up his holidays to act as nursemaid to the kind of kids who have at least one family ski holiday a year and already ski like gods.
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pam w, fair points about the target market. Although I know a fair few kids from skiing families who went on my eldest's school's trip last week.
But they do seem quite expensive for what they are. You have to wonder how astute the schools are in their purchasing decisions. And we have the other thread about a school switching a holiday from Winter Park to New England...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm quite pleased my daughter isn't too interested in her school trips. They aren't particularly good value for a coach trip to some pretty remote Italian resort. Had any of her friends been interested in going (none are skiers) I think things may have been different though.
It's pretty bad though how the crook running this lot has got away with his fraudulent activities preying on schools for many, many years. Despite various prosecutions, disqualifications, etc, he seems to have popped up again soon after. Bad enough with double glazing but in this sort of case children's lives are at risk.
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children's lives at risk?
i've worked for SE in the past, and whatever you may think about the man at the top don't tar all the other people working for them with the same brush. They have, perhaps undeservedly, some very good people working for them, both home and abroad. In resort the reps and instructors do a great job picking up the pieces and making sure, above all , the children have a good time.
Apart from the BASI 1 instructors SE employ.. and apart from anything else those particular instructors, who are NOT qualified to teach on a mountain should NOT be putting themselves forward for that work, that is totally irresponsible, apart from those people all other instructors i met with SE are competent and professional and DO NOT put children's lives at risk. They do a great job often in the trying circumstances created by the head of the TO. If all the foregoing posts are to be believed, then what the head of skiing europe has been up to recently is indefensible, but it's not the fault of the staff who work for him.
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bumpy, My criticism was aimed at the man at the top too. You've re-iterated the use of people not qualified for the job they are doing and a quick google search shows other examples (not all ski related). It's the companies responsibility to ensure it's people are suitably qualified. Surely not doing that is putting children's lives at risk. I don't question the dedication of most working for them, it must be very testing.
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i would say the fault lies equally with the TO and with the instructor who applies for a job knowing full well they are not qualified to do it.
Why would you do that? Seems highly irresponsible to me. If you would do that what other corners are you going to cut?
but reading all recent posts that does not seem to have been the basis of the problems this year... it almost seems like reading about a company in its death throes, whether by design or not i have no idea...
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bumpy, I doubt it, the guy running this lot seems to have a history of this sort of thing going back over 20 years.
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bumpy, welcome to snowheads, a shame your debut is on such a depressing subject.
I am curious, are SE breaking any laws in employing under qualified instructors, UK law, European or the local country? Are the under qualified instructors breaking any law?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
bumpy, welcome to snowheads, a shame your debut is on such a depressing subject.
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thanks smithski.. but not strictly a debut - was on here a few years back but have forgotten my login! A friend pointed me to this thread knowing i used to work for SE a few years ago.
| Quote: |
I am curious, are SE breaking any laws in employing under qualified instructors, UK law, European or the local country? Are the under qualified instructors breaking any law?
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i have no idea.. but there are surely insurance issues? I wonder what BASi's take on this is? So far as i can remember when i did my BASI (long time ago!) you couldn't get a BASI 1 (then a BASI 4) qualification off the mountain (?)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I endorse what you have said bumpy,. The financial shenanigans apparently going on at the top of the company do not necessarily reflect the professionalism and commitment of the people working for it on the ground. I can safely say on that on the occasions I have worked for SE, I and my fellow instructors have made sure the children have a good time. How? Because no matter what issues may be buzzing around about hotels, coaches, lack of information, last minute changes (always good fodder for a chat over a beer with the school staff, coach drivers, etc), what really matters for the children is what happens between the moment the instructor takes over a group on the hill and when he/she hands them over at the end of the day. What I know of that vital time while working for SE is that it has been quality time for the children. That may not have been universal, but is true of my own experience with the company. It is of course a reflection on the individuals not on the financial and organisational skills of the company
I have no knowledge of whether they have been using unqualified instructors so can't comment on that. I agree that from the point of view of liability, it would be foolish, and of safety, highly irresponsible.
What a sorry mess it seems to be turning out to be and I hope those booked for Easter don't get let down. I think in simple terms what has probably happened is that he has pushed the people he depends on - in particular the hoteliers and the coach companies - too far for too long with regard to late changes, late payments, etc. As their patience has run out, so has his credit.
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smithski, bumpy, AFAIK there didn't used to be any qualification restriction on anyone being hired by a ski school to teach in Switzerland (apart from the odd local restriction). So even a BASI L1 would be more qualified than the many local instructors with no qualifications whatsoever. As I understand it this changed last season. I think there's still no qualification requirement (as too many of their pros have never had any qualification) but there is a requirement to undertake at least 2 weeks professional development in ski instructing in any season that you are going to teach in Switzerland. In practice I understand that most Swiss ski schools are running a 2 week training for all their potential instructors pre or early season to fulfil this requirement. It does mean that people who used to do a couple of weeks instructing for Swiss based ski schools over busy periods can no longer do so unless they turn up for the pre/early season training or do something else (though of course you can still bring a UK based group out with you under the auspices of a club).
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You know it makes sense.
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Hi Everyone-
After spending many hours reading all this stuff to doing with SE I can confirm that most of this did actually happen in Austria -Wildschonau area. I was working as a rep for a school called Alcester Grammar School (no listed in the above post) and it was a complete nightmare! I am also a teacher and wanted to warn as many people as possible so I wrote on the TES forum (see link) I have already been approached by the press regarding the goings on. I really hope there isnt a repeat at Easter!
http://community.tes.co.uk/forums/p/470614/6569122.aspx
I don't know if i'll get paid and to be honest that was the least of my worries knowing how much the school had to bail out in order to save the trip! Sounds like Mr Reynard is up to his old tricks again and I will not EVER work for them EVER again- it's a shame because I met some wonderful people whilst working for them! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Do the parents write out cheques to the school or to the tour company?
I am just wondering who they would sue for their money back.
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Poster: A snowHead
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anyone know where Reynard lives?? 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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bar shaker - cheques payable to school, then school writes cheque to travel company (less admin for travel companies - only know of one school ski company that deals directly with children/their parents...
Bob - Reynard's company address is readily available (google search 'skiing europe, Chris Reynard'), home address you need to dig a bit more (suggest you try his new wife's maiden name, or electoral role for Colyton & surrounding area - a small fee applies.)
As he is now being chased by Devon CC, I'd suggest waiting as Kent & Berkshire CCs may well follow suit, or combine in a class action against Skiing Europe.
I think that it's important that this thread remains high in the listings as it's receiving a lot of hits, providing information to others and hopefully warning people off using Skiing Europe.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| bar shaker wrote: |
Do the parents write out cheques to the school or to the tour company?
I am just wondering who they would sue for their money back. |
Not a clue about whether to TO did or not do what it was meant to do, but from a getting-your-money-back point of view it would be better if they did ???.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 11-03-11 18:26; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Pretty sure the Finkenhof and Faberwirt are in Auffach in the Wildschonau. The Niederstrasse is in what Reynard calls Kitzbuhel, so about half an hour away then.
Apparently, he lives a little way down the lane from the office, walking distance. Can't be hard to find. What's everyone doing this weekend?
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[quote="Kruisler"]
| snowskisnow wrote: |
I don't see where the school has failed in its duty of care?
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They picked a crap TO with a history. We are considering a 100k spend here. 5 minutes on Google would tell me not to give them £100.00 never mind 100k. Was it not worth 5 minutes to check them out before booking?
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[quote="Thornyhill"]
| Kruisler wrote: |
| snowskisnow wrote: |
I don't see where the school has failed in its duty of care?
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They picked a crap TO with a history. We are considering a 100k spend here. 5 minutes on Google would tell me not to give them £100.00 never mind 100k. Was it not worth 5 minutes to check them out before booking? |
Hindsight. A wonderful thing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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noskitrip - he's made quite a lot of changes to his site! He's included lots of stock, generic photos to try to make it look marginally better and got rid of the awful music!
I see that he still can't be bothered to put in webcam links on that hilarious page, which suggests they don't exist in anywhere but Kitzbuhel!
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[quote="smithski"]
| Thornyhill wrote: |
| Kruisler wrote: |
| snowskisnow wrote: |
I don't see where the school has failed in its duty of care?
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They picked a crap TO with a history. We are considering a 100k spend here. 5 minutes on Google would tell me not to give them £100.00 never mind 100k. Was it not worth 5 minutes to check them out before booking? |
Hindsight. A wonderful thing. |
Especially when you and your own family have been promised free places?
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FAQ
Tripadvisor is bering up a blank on those listed. Thanks snowheads.
