 Poster: A snowHead
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kuwait_ian, the eagle has landed?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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laundryman, That 'eagle' looks very much like a Lammergeier or Bearded Vulture - yes I know I'm a sad anorak wearing twitcher. However these birds were part of a European release program back in the early 90's, if I remember correctly. I found out about it after seeing one of these monsters being mobbed by alpine choughs, we were sitting on a chair lift at La Grand Bornand at the time. You don't expect to see a bird with a 3 metre wingspan drift over your head.
CP
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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In that case..
"I'm not dead, get off!"
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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CP, you learn something new every day! I'll be on the lookout. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Leisse used to be a red run about 20 years ago
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Putting aside resort gradings, this run proves (in a roundabout way) the point that "steep" depends on snow quality, not actual gradient. What's supposedly a difficult run may in practice not be difficult, depending on a lot of things besides gradient.
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but Manda, I can't see how anyone could consider that run black - moguls or no moguls (I do remember them). We had a new piste put in about 5 years ago. It's really a green run with steep red bits in the middle. They called it a red run, but hardly anyone skied it so after 2 years they changed it to blue......... Another was a red called "Le Rouge", part of the face - always pisted when I first came here. Now it's black and called "Y" and never pisted - the runs' the same ............
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This is going to be my last word on the topic of speed; I really don't care what you believe, but I don't want to be misunderstood, or misquoted.
I never claimed to be going 100 mph on skis. To clarify, during my recorded speed, I saw someone
move directly into my line, and stood up out of my crouch to slow down in preparation to brake if needed. I was a last minute entry, and not everyone expected me to be there, so he may have been looking up the hill to see if I was actually on it (or maybe he coudn't believe anyone in a parka could be skiing so fast). I don't remember the exact speed, at the time it did not impress me; I believe it was sixty something. The ski instructor from whom I had been taking a lesson and who slipped my name into the event, seemed to think that I should be proud to have broken into the triple digits in kph. At the time I estimated that I had gone at least 30 percent faster on other runs. Which would be between 1.3x60 and 1.3 x 70 or 78 to 91 mph. This is only an estimation! I don't believe I have ever gone over 85mph on skis, though I do believe my fastest ever speed on skis is between 75 and 85. I don't care what you believe.
Though I was admittedly obsessed with speed in my youth, seeking out DH courses, sking after freezing rain, skiing cliffs that had run outs at the bottom, etc. I got over it. I'm now searching for a quick-turning small Radius skis to replace my long boards.
I have no problem passing people on normal runs; I feel a sense of duty to other skiers not to pass them at breakneck speeds when they are going 5 mph zig-zagging across a 4-m wide chute. It annoys me to no end when this chute also happens to be extremely steep and icy with a clear view of the runout at the bottom that leads onto a steep groomed run.
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easiski, this is the "black run" that I thought was easy cause it had plenty of snow on it. Even if it should really be a red, it still had plenty of snow on it, and that made it not as "difficult" as the red down into Val D. Point proved. Difficulty's not primarily about gradient, it's often more about snow quality.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Manda wrote: |
| easiski, this is the "black run" that I thought was easy cause it had plenty of snow on it. Even if it should really be a red, it still had plenty of snow on it, and that made it not as "difficult" as the red down into Val D. Point proved. Difficulty's not primarily about gradient, it's often more about snow quality. |
It was you (or someone using your keyboard) who said :
| Manda wrote: |
Putting aside resort gradings, this run proves (in a roundabout way) the point that "steep" depends on snow quality, not actual gradient. What's supposedly a difficult run may in practice not be difficult,
depending on a lot of things besides gradient. |
It's the Internet so switching horses mid-stream is the norm I suppose.
Difficult clearly depends on a mix of factors some objective and some subjective which makes "difficult" a subjective concept. Steep is the angle and is 100% objective and doesn't vary with snow condition or what you drank the night before, funnily enough that's what the dictionary says as well.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ise wrote: |
| Steep is the angle and is 100% objective and doesn't vary with snow condition or what you drank the night before, funnily enough that's what the dictionary says as well. |
Couldn't have said it better myself 
Edit:
Saying "this run is steep because it's icy" is no different than saying "this lemon is purple because it has a bumpy texture."
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ponder, what lemon? I've got a clementine, I think we're comparing apples and oranges here 
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Basically, steep is an adjective, and so is icy. They are both potential properties of a skiing run. The idea is that even though a run may be icy and difficult, this does not make it steep. The two words are totally unrelated. In the second quote, purple is an adjective, and so is bumpy. They are both potential properties of a fruit. However, like steep and icy (or narrow, gladed, etc. for that matter), they are totally unrelated to one another, and a fruit is not purple because it is bumpy.
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You know it makes sense.
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I don't care about steep runs, but it's not true to say that 'steep' is objective; 45 degrees is objective. In the absence of a definition, 'steep' is an indefinite, relative term, and it's meaning must be affected by the user's expectations and so on. I think that this thread was started to find out if there is a definition of 'steep' in skiing, and it seems that there isn't. I agree, 'though, that if a definition is needed, one based on the average gradient would be the most appropriate (and objective), ignoring width, quality of snow, bumps, hangovers, bottle and so on.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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How about a bit of Virage Sauté Pédale? (Pic 3 looks painful upon first examination)
Looks like a kick turn to me. But how many guides have you skied with that advise you not to kick turn on steeps? The article also mentions ithe windscreen wiper turns - any offers on this one?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Oh for crying out loud. I admit that I've been clunky with my wording, but you've got to be obtuse to carry on with the objection to my proposition that something described as "steep" may not necessarily appear steep on a photo, or feel "steep" when it's skied. It is possible to objectively measure gradient (am off to find a protractor and compass or whatever surveyors use). But you can't measure steep in the same way and arrive at the same certainty of answer. To this extent steep is synonymous with difficulty, steep is not another word for gradient.
There is a defintion of steep - we're all using it. And it is subjective and it does depend on the skier and snow conditions. But to expect the word "steep" to provide a suitable platform for a discussion about whether a given gradient is "difficult" (which is where this thread started from) is asking a bit much.
For the record I had much fun knocking off some standard black runs last week precisely because the gradient was softened by good snow. i.e. they weren't "steep".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Manda wrote: |
Oh for crying out loud. I admit that I've been clunky with my wording, but you've got to be obtuse to carry on with the objection to my proposition that something described as "steep" may not necessarily appear steep on a photo, or feel "steep" when it's skied. It is possible to objectively measure gradient (am off to find a protractor and compass or whatever surveyors use). But you can't measure steep in the same way and arrive at the same certainty of answer. To this extent steep is synonymous with difficulty, steep is not another word for gradient.
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A protractor ? An experienced skier would use an Inclinometer (if they wanted measure the slope) which you've presumably never heard of.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Manda, your definition is then 100% subjectives and hardly useful. My 8-year-old finds the nursery slope too easy, but the beginner slope challenging. My 10-year-old finds the nursery slope challenging. I don't find the slope challenging until you have to make sure that it can hold sufficient snow. Of course, I can make a slope challenging by choice of line, speed, and task (which is what I do while skiing with the family on the greens).
Steep for skiing, in my opinion, means a slope not easily groomed. Some of those may still be easy to ski for some (like D G Orf  ), but if one falls, one slides for a ways. That's probably my principle definition: if you fall, you slide and have to climb for your gear, even while skiing at slower speeds.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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All this argument and yet the only sure way of knowing when something is too steep is when an advanced skiier screams "holy f* I'm going to die" all the way down. 
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D G Orf, of course really steep and "you fall, you die..." 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I don't do that steep
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Well, you could end up on a slope which is steep enough but it is the rocks below you that concentrate the mind.
Most runs I have been on and you can imagine you would survive the fall, its what you might hit that will do the damage..!!
Having said that I saw someone go top to bottom on Lavachette in Argentiere and that looked very very bad. And that is steep!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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D G Orf, you know, I used to, but haven't in a while. I'm still adjusting to the new skis, I think. However, my goal over this next few days on skis (I'm up to Summit County tomorrow through Wednesday) is to see if I can't shift into my old confidence. We'll see!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ssh,
I seem to remember a very steep black mogul field in A basin. At least it looked that way in 1990 when I couldn't really ski it
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ssh - I like "turn-or-die", it's so much more descriptive than my usual heavily repeated expletive. I'm converted!
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You know it makes sense.
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Alexandra, more dramatic is - go straight or die, sometimes the only option is to pray for a decent run out at the bottom of the slope
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Really, really steep is definitely - you fall, you die
Really steep is - you fall you get hurt
Steep is - you fall, you slide, you're seriously inconvenienced and pretty scared by it.
However, if you're a beginner you'll think the first is a blue run, the second a green and the third a nursery slope! It's all very subjective isn't it?
We have more than one person a year killed on our black runs (usually the Combe Valentin), because they're not up to it, they fall, they slide and they hit something (tree, pylon, other skier). However that run is 32 deg at the top, so according to what's gone before on this thread it's not steep at all!!!!!!!!!!
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Poster: A snowHead
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JT, it's steep. But not death-defying. I've skied all of A. It's great skiing, but not the steepest in-bounds skiing in the state, much less in the US...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| ssh wrote: |
| D G Orf, you know, I used to, but haven't in a while. I'm still adjusting to the new skis, I think. However, my goal over this next few days on skis (I'm up to Summit County tomorrow through Wednesday) is to see if I can't shift into my old confidence. We'll see! |
I had an absolutely tremendous weekend. I believe that I made the best ski turns of my life in the past few days! Plus, I skied some reasonably steep terrain with complete confidence (much of the terrain off the T-bar at Breck, including Horseshoe Bowl, Vertigo, the Boundary Chutes, and others). It was a really great weekend, and the new snow certainly improved things! I even skied steep trees with confidence! What fun!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ssh,
On your b5's..?
As for A basin, it only as I remember it..!!
There is another thread where someone mentions that a lot of manufacturers are copying the dimensions of the b5..!!
Don't want to hijack this thread tho'
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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ssh,
Sorry, have been away for a few days and have now caught up with all posts, so apologise for the cross threads
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| JT wrote: |
| ssh, On your b5's..? |
On three of the four days, yes! And what fun arcing those tight turns down the piste and dropping into powder in the trees.
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ssh,
Still trying to get on them, hopefully Engelberg will have them. Haven't tried the hire shops yet, still sorting out the trip!
I have heard that a few manufacturers may be copying the b5's concept but I don't know how true that may be, haven't seen any previews of skis except the Rossi B2
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JT, Rossi's new Zenith series (check out the Z9!) is very much a Metron shape. There are some others, as well, but I don't remember specifics. The new Nordica Hot Rods are getting great reviews from my friends who have been on them (especially the Modified, which is 78mm under foot). They are not a "super shape" like the b5s, though.
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FAQ
, if I am in auto mode I can take on any slope without a care 
