 Poster: A snowHead
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| professorpool wrote: |
Do the ESF and BSS operate different pricing policies in different resorts then?
Are chalets/apartments/holidays advertised in English mags not more expensive than that which can be sourced direct?
British people going to stay in british owned chalets staffed by British people and taught by British instructors?
Smacks of Algarvism - The sort of people that pack out those bars you see along the sea front there showing Man Utd games on a saturday afternoon serving fish and chips. |
The cheapest ski holidays I've had have been budget 'chalet hotels' run by British tour operators and staffed by (arguably underpaid) British workers. That doesn't smack of "rip-off Britain" to me. I disagree with the 'Algarvism' criticism as I chose those holidays because they offered good value accommodation in good locations, not because I would be served by a British teenager and would share the hotel with other Brits.
The reason I choose British instruction is not because I like being taught by Brits, but because in my experience the smaller independent ski schools have a much lower proportion of poor instructors and if you sign up for classes it reduces the risk of ending up with an instructor who doesn't do much teaching but simply guides you around the mountain. I also think that I prefer the BASI approach to instruction over the French system. professorpool you seem to be suggesting that those people who use the more expensive British instructors do it because we are too stupid to realise that there are cheaper alternatives, or too insular to ski with johnny foreigner teaching us. From my point of view both accusations are wrong. I'm well aware of the premium charged by British instructors, but I consider it good value for money. Your sweeping generalisations about why I chose the instruction I do are wide of the mark.
professorpool, out of interest, do you avoid using British companies when overseas purely on the principle that you avoid all forms of Algarvism?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
British people going to stay in british owned chalets staffed by British people and taught by British instructors?
Smacks of Algarvism - The sort of people that pack out those bars you see along the sea front there showing Man Utd games on a saturday afternoon serving fish and chips.
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(Generalisation coming up....) Most British holiday skiers are taught in the local ski schools and most of them give up ski school as soon as they have learnt to plough around the pistes and do a nifty hockey stop at the lifts, spraying snow over people. (Unsupported assertion coming up) I suspect that the enthusiasm of posters above for instruction in small groups or private lessons, and with instructors who speak really fluent English, is in direct proportion to the number of weeks of ski instruction they have had and (consquently) the standard of their skiing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
| (Unsupported assertion coming up) I suspect that the enthusiasm of posters above for instruction in small groups or private lessons, and with instructors who speak really fluent English, is in direct proportion to the number of weeks of ski instruction they have had and (consquently) the standard of their skiing. |
To support your assertion, that's me. If I'm going to [invest][waste] a large amount of money in regular instruction each season I want it to be effective instruction, not the kind of instruction that I got from the ESF/local Italian/local Austrian schools. When I did use local ski schools normally I learnt very little about skiing but had an enjoyable time skiing around the domain following the instructor down different pistes. Cheaper than high quality instruction, but fairly pointless if you're looking to improve your skiing and open up more of the mountain to you.
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Whitegold, Come on. you've no chance of alternative opinions on here , (or any forum to be honest), it's not only ESF, they also think every single bulgarian instructor is rubbish and that the 1000's of people that go back there every year are misguided.
Good point about the Brit champions.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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WayneC, "They" being?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| WayneC wrote: |
| Whitegold, Come on. you've no chance of alternative opinions on here , (or any forum to be honest), it's not only ESF, they also think every single bulgarian instructor is rubbish and that the 1000's of people that go back there every year are misguided. |
That's a fair point WayneC - a forum like this tends to attract people who are keen to improve and have a fair amount of mileage behind us - and often a large amount of bad experience of ski schools - often not helped by the way that tour operators arrange instruction.
Personally, I think that anyone who skis in one place and has instruction from only one school will miss opporunity. I'm doing the season in Morzine, but am keen to ensure that I still ski elsewhere and will be making the effort to get over to Flaine, Megeve, Chamonix, Les Arcs (hopefully) and La Grave over the season.
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PhillipStanton, you could head a few miles further up the Arly Valley from Megeve and do Notre Dame de Bellecombe and the Espace Diamant as well.  My problem with heading to different places is that having shelled out on a season pass, and trying to keep costs down, those day trips are quite expensive.
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Agree on much of the sentiments regarding private lessons.
Shall we expend the discussion and examine the differences in prices for private lessons too?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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marc gledhill, To be honest, just picked up on this thread, and only got to bottom of the 1st page, and it seemed like the same arguement being used against ESF as against Bulgaria in another thread. That British is always best at any cost but it doesn't make any sense that other schools/countries can't be any good or the customers just wouldn't go back. All IMO.
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| WayneC wrote: |
| marc gledhill, To be honest, just picked up on this thread, and only got to bottom of the 1st page, and it seemed like the same arguement being used against ESF as against Bulgaria in another thread. That British is always best at any cost but it doesn't make any sense that other schools/countries can't be any good or the customers just wouldn't go back. All IMO. |
Do you believe that the converse is true, so that anybody who pays over the odds for instruction at a British ski school is foolishly paying too much money when exactly the same quality of service can be had for less money at one of the 'local' ski schools?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Of course not, but not everyone wants the same thing. Its not as if skiing is difficult once you get the basics but agree with your 8:11
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| WayneC wrote: |
| marc gledhill, To be honest, just picked up on this thread, and only got to bottom of the 1st page, and it seemed like the same arguement being used against ESF as against Bulgaria in another thread. That British is always best at any cost but it doesn't make any sense that other schools/countries can't be any good or the customers just wouldn't go back. All IMO. |
I don't think anyone was saying that, on page 1 or anywhere else. People were simply offering possible reasons why the Brit ski school might be able to charge more than the ESF, and relating their own experiences of tuition I Europe, so that professorpool could make his mind up which to go for. Some people reacted strongly to a suggestion that anything British is a rip off. I detect no 'British is best' motif.
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PhillipStanton, Our local ESF are paid by the hour with a "bonus" if they take larger groups. I know one (very good) instructor who worked over 1,000 hours last year. However, for his 35,000 euros before tax etc. he worked 7.5 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 5 months. Now how many people in non-alpine jobs on here would be prepared to work like that for less than 25,000 pounds??? He does earn a little in the summer, but he's a family man ..... If anyone is interested I don't have any problem telling you that I earn about 23,000 euros a year before tax etc. Not a fortune. (that includes 2/3 months in Bath in the autumn). Easiski gets about 21,000 EUROS.
I'm not moaning, but I bet most Snowheads think their professional qualifications are worth more than that. 
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You know it makes sense.
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easiski, why do people do it, for less than £2.50 an hour? Is it because, in the case of 'natives', they want to stay in their village and that's the only way for them to earn a few bob there (a perfectly good reason, BTW, in my view)?
BTW, I though you were easiski; there seem to be two of you, both earning over €20000 pa! Betwen the 2 halves of your personality, you're raking it in!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
anyone doing that 'just' for money should be certified insane ( oh, perhaps I shouldn't have said that)
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Yes, you should. I agree that anyone British doing it "just for money" would have to be insane. As I've said in other threads, same applies to people who are professional sailing instructors. They do it for the job satisfaction, not money. However, for a local person living in the Alps, making a sketchy living from their pasture land, cows and cheese making, winter seasons spent ski instructing will probably make better economic sense. They can live at home with their families and incur no extra accommodation expenses (seasonal accommodation in ski resorts is costly and usually cramped). They may well also get a lot of job satisfaction from a job well done, of course, but they would hardly be "insane" if they regarded it as "just another job" in an area where there may not be too many alternatives.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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richmond, I quoted 2 amounts - the second is for easiski, and the first includes a couple of months admin temp work in the autumn!
The answer to all the questions though, is that it's a lifestyle choice of course, however it's far from the glamorous job lots imagine - we don't get to ski much (teaching is not skiing), and spend a great deal of our lives freezing cold! As I say it's a choice. All this on top of spending around £10,000 of our own money (no interest free loans for ski teaching courses) and AT LEAST 4 years, and in most cases nearer 10 to actually get through it all. then some ignorant little sh*t goes online and tells 6,000 people that we're all a waste of money!  Now don't get me wrong; it costs the french and the austrians and the italians just as much time and money and effort to get there too.
Quote from the BASI website:
" Four levels of BASI qualification available to alpine instructors:
Trainee
Ski Instructor
Ski Teacher ISIA
International Ski Teacher Diploma
The new Alpine system came into effect for the season 2000/2001. This huge development for British Alpine Skiing reflects the policies of the Association to provide the best level of training available and qualifications that are accepted worldwide.
The new system takes into account the following external factors; the effects of globalisation and the home market. It also addresses the need to be able to operate a financially and administratively viable training programme.
Key features:
The new system underpins BASI’s international reputation. BASI is now one of the Alpine Group and BASI's top qualification matches the awards in the Alpine countries (please note that only three other countries, Austriua- France- Italy, are in this position).
The new system acknowledges the different needs of the European market, the rest of the world market and the domestic market.
It is important for students to note that the new system now meets the new requirements of the ISIA minimum standards and that the titles of the new qualifications have been designed to ensure easy recognition of each qualification and easier employability.
The new system matches training time and effort with the value of each award. For example, the time taken to achieve Trainee Instructor is five days. To gain the International Ski Teacher Diploma qualification should take from three to five years and employment opportunities are considerable.
Additional features of the new system include: Kite Marking
BASI has introduced a ‘kite marking’ concept which has already had a very positive response from ski schools both at home and abroad who are very keen to get involved with this concept. This is an excellent step for all students, wishing to choose an Alpine career, as the kite mark includes a requirement to meet minimum standards of training and development.
Exemptions
The new Trainee Instructor course will include the outcomes of the SNSC ASSI. Instructors holding these will therefore be able to apply for exemption to the Trainee Instructor course.
For those old or new to BASI the new Alpine system is the most radical change to the BASI training programme since the creation of the three levels way back in the 1960’s and brings British Snowsports, for the professional, into the 21st century. "
To work in France and Italy, and to be paid as a Stadleter(sp) in austria you must achieve the ISTD.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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pam w, further support for your assertion, as a family , we all learned to ski at the same time, kids with ESF or ESI depending on resort, and us usually ESF. The adults ahd fun, mostly the kids did, but they begged us not to send them to ski school one holiday, so we didn't. As it was a last minute trip, to Serre Che, at Easter, we just had a fun time skiing together. Next Winter, to their horror, I booked them ski lessons again, with Gavin from Eurekaski in Serre Che, we had three sessions of 2 hours on alternate days. As you are in a group of 4-6 max, skiing time during the lesson is increased, you learn more, and don't need the extended time. We all enjoyed it, and our skiing improved, something which hadn't happened to my skiing for several sets of lessons (I'd even dropped out of one lot because of a lecherous instructor). Since then we have had occasional lessons, a summer one with Easiski, and some more in Serre Chevalier, but at least one half-day lesson each holiday. We could just potter about on the pistes, but it's actually good fun improving your skiing too.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| easiski wrote: |
| I'm not moaning, but I bet most Snowheads think their professional qualifications are worth more than that. |
I completely agree easiski. I'm always horrified by how much my private lessons cost me - but I'm adult enough to understand what even the £50 an hour I pay for privates turns into when annualised across a season.
If anything, it reinforces the point that ski resorts are a shallow and broad-based pyramid of wealth. Few people make more money than they'd make in almost any alternative non-skiing career. It's the reason I could never see myself moving to Morzine permanently - I could always find better ways of making more money and doing more skiing than having a full time job in resort.
Which is sad.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PhillipStanton, it is a sad state of affairs but the whole of the leisure industry is poorly paid, i remember back to 1994 when i was working at tamworth snowdome, the reason for paying the staff so poorly was that Tamworth was the only snow slope in the country so people would work for less money as it was new and different   at that point there was a flat rate for instructors whatever the qualification which was equal to the lowest paid instructors at the dry slope i previously worked at in Glasgow & more than £6 p/hour less than the most qualified
i am sure many ski instructors & others will agree with me, there are no rich ski instructors, boot fitters, chalet staff etc etc it is a lifestyle choice, a work life balance call it what you will....i can assure you it is NOT for the money..... as for british ski schools costing more, may be they are but who cares , it is a case of finding the level you want to pay, and the experience / qualification of who you are paying for.
the french speed test thing kind of gets me....you have to ski a GS course within 10% of the time [correct me if i am wrong guys] of a B squad national racer to pass.....how does being able to fling yourself down a GS course at speed qualify you to teach someone to ski while i know this is only part of the situation, i know many great ski instructos who are fantastic teachers but could never pass the speed test. so what is it actually for
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I use British ski schools for 2 reasons. I want smaller class sizes and more attentive teaching than it is my perception we would generally get from the ESF. In addition, I ideally want a native English speaking instructor because I don't believe the standard of English of the average French instructor approaches that required for effective instruction at any level above the most basic. Setting aside the economic reality in which they exist, considered in absolute terms only, I regard British ski schools as being quite expensive but am still willing to pay what they currently ask, for what I perceive as higher quality instruction.
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I think it is absolutely terrible the amounts of money that resort workers of all shapes and sizes get paid but the economics of supply and demand apply still, also, we all get cheaper holidays.
I'm all heads and tales now anyway!
As a matter of probably "neither here nor there" interest now, I have booked 3x private lessons each for the pairings of the two small kids and my wife and eldest son (14) who are roughly similar ability wise and one refresher lesson for me to iron out bugs and examine new techniques/equipment.
7x 35 euros in total = 245 euros
All with 360 international: http://www.skisurf360.com
Ski passes wrre 650 ish euros for 5x 8 day passes.
5 year old did have to pay btw, whomever thought that was free.
My very first memory of ski instruction was "ben. zee neeze" 
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Equivalent lessons with BSS - £60 per hour
7x £60 = £420
£420 versus 240 euros.
Please - nobody try and say that the English is worth that much difference!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| professorpool wrote: |
Equivalent lessons with BSS - £60 per hour
7x £60 = £420
£420 versus 240 euros.
Please - nobody try and say that the English is worth that much difference! |
Sorry - but it depends how much you value the cash, or other things you might spend it on, relative to your perception of the "superior" experience it buys.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| cathy wrote: |
| stewart woodward wrote: |
| Please no nasty mails but in these days of equality & equal pay why do we have a different percentage for men/ladies? |
Maybe because men ski faster than women? If it were in relation to the fastest ladies time that ladies had to achieve, then it should be the same percentage. But if its in relation to the fastest men's time then it should be different. |
Would I qualify if I could ski a GS course within the same percentage compared to the top old git?
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You know it makes sense.
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| professorpool wrote: |
Equivalent lessons with BSS - £60 per hour
7x £60 = £420
£420 versus 240 euros.
Please - nobody try and say that the English is worth that much difference! |
You've answered your own question, haven't you, which you did really in your first post. For you, paying that premium for a Brtish ski school ain't worth it, whatever they;re offering (and you may well be right). Others may think it is.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, as an instructor of, I hesitate to say it, some experience, do you think that it's important for a ski instructor to be able to ski a GS course very quickly (18% of the top man sounds pretty damn fast to me? Clearly to do that you must be a very good skier but it won't in itself make you a good teacher. OK it's objective, but since the other requirements to be an instructor are presumably much more subjective, how does that help?
Is the speed test a requirement you have to meet once and then you're in, or do you have to pass it each year.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| richmond wrote: |
| Clearly to do that you must be a very good skier but it won't in itself make you a good teacher. |
But the speed test is only one part of the requirements for a BASI 1 qualification. Other aspects require you to demonstrate teaching abilities, H&S, customer care, etc. The Eurotest demands technical skiing to a high level - you're not going to get within 18 or 24% to the top ranked skier if your technique is even a little bit flakey, and as easiski said, it requires a fair amount of training in gates to stand any chance of passing. Although I understand why some people question whether it is necessary to ski gates well in order to teach, from my point of view I'd like any instructor teaching me to be technically strong in all aspects of his/her skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, I realise that. I just wonder whether there's a need for all instructors to be that fast or whether it's 'old habits die hard' or as cathy said, a way of keeping instructor numbers down.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 15-12-06 14:32; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Personally I think it is BS. Skiing fast/Driving fast/Drinking fast does not make you good instructor at any of the above. Style is more important. Mrs. RH is a qualified instructor but does not consider herself a good instructor or have good style, because she raced and was successful at racing. I would love to ski with such a bad style.
On the other hand one of her best friends was the president of the Norwegian ISIA, a fantastic skier. Skied on the Norwegian demonstration team etc,etc. but was not a successful racer. Probably the most stylish skier I have ever seen and more important to the position a brilliant teacher.
The French may suggest that someone with that background would not be good enough to teach little Piere or Little Tommy. Possibly this would be to little Piere's detrement.
Little rant over, but I can't understand the Position of the French system.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Roy Hockley, I'm a bit sceptical too, but I'd like to hear what easiski and other instructors have to say. I can see at the top end you may need people who are pretty zippy, but for teaching kids, or me for that matter, I'd have thought technique and teaching ability far outweigh speed.
BTW, it's not just the French who insist on speed apparently.
| easiski wrote: |
| it's the European speed test - not the french. the french always did a slalom and had to change to GS to fall in line with the italy and austria. GB had to adopt it to fall in line with the other 3. |
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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richmond,
=
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| professorpool wrote: |
Equivalent lessons with BSS - £60 per hour
7x £60 = £420
£420 versus 240 euros.
Please - nobody try and say that the English is worth that much difference! |
Sorry - but it depends how much you value the cash, or other things you might spend it on, relative to your perception of the "superior" experience it buys. |
This isnt the difference between buying a Mondeo or a BMW, its the difference between buying a red BMW or a blue BMW that are otherwise identical.
You want the blue one but its a few quid more. Buy it.
or
You want the blue one but its more than double the price.
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If nothing else, its created a stimulating debate that has proved useful reading and I took some of the advice.
Time well spent for me then 
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| professorpool wrote: |
| This isnt the difference between buying a Mondeo or a BMW, its the difference between buying a red BMW or a blue BMW that are otherwise identical. |
Would you buy any BMW that spoke to you with an 'Allo 'Allo accent? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Yes, I suppose it is that simple.
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Wow, this has got people talking! I haven't posted in ages but was drawn to this article as I myself run a British ski coaching business in the Alps. EurekaSKI is completely realistic with its pricing and we only increase prices every two years. Our prices are way below those of other British ski schools (£42 per hour Personal Coaching, £98 Children's 10 hour course, £78 Adult's 6 hour course) AND we only employ Grade 1 BASI instructors with the International Ski Teacher Diploma (i.e. we do not employee trainees).
This means that for less money than elsewhere (but admittedly more money than any ESI or ESF entity) YOU get:
* to ski in one of the smallest groups in the Alps with 3-6 adult skiers (4-8 children)
* modern coaching which takes into account modern equipment,
* British mother-tongue coaching (much of it is about pyschology, not just demo'ing technique) and,
* an instructor who is at the top of his profession, not still in training.
That's my word on it! By the way, hello Charlotte, haven't seen you in a while but I know Gavin saw you a few weeks/months back (where's the time going?!)
(P.S. To the person who made references to why we (Brits) don't have any top racing skiers, a super-hot ski racer doesn't make a good ski teacher.)
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FAQ
