Heat mold or not?

A snowHead

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Just bought a new Salomon X max 130, which feels amazing after my old Salomon evolutions... Really like the "racing" fit, but it is a bit too narrow in the width while standing in it (in the warm room...) I haven't taken it back to the shop to have it fitted for me yet, but will do soon..
My worry is, that if I get it heat molded (inside only, or both inside and outside), I don't want to lose the tight fit with the liner packing out after a while... On the other hand, I have a one week ski trip coming up, and don't want to lose ski days due to agony...

How many days does it take to break in a boot/liner roughly just with skiing (or walking around with it in the living room? Puzzled

) Would heat molding just the inside help with last or the shell needs the heating for that?
I have been reading posts to the contrary to each other, people saying that a "race" type (i know it is not really a race boot) boot should feel uncomfortable for a bit, while others say the heat molding (at least the inside) is silly not to do.. Also these boots don't have canting per say, but supposedly the shell heat molding will take care of it.. So do people just automatically heat these up, or only if there is pain associated with them?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Many thanks!

A snowHead

Not sure what your liners are like, but you could always use the intuition hot-rice method.
I did my Scarpa Maestrales successfully using this...
http://intuitionliners.com/fitting/home-fitting-instructions/

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I've used rice, and I've had someone use a proper cooker.

Proper cookers are better.

And yes, get them moulded.

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Many thanks for getting back to me! I can take it back to the store where they meant to do the heat fixing with the proper kit, so that is not a problem. The concern is only whether I would end up widening the boot out with an unworn liner, so as I start wearing it, it will become too wide... Supposedly the 130 has a fairly slim liner, that some say won't pack down?

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The heating won't shrink the liner, it should feel even more snug if it's done properly

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I got a X Max 130 (2014/15)off the internet and paid for a fitting process plus custom footbeds at Ski Bartlet. I measure about 99mm across toes so quite comfortable initially but started to pinch after 20 mins. Got a very minor stretch just there and everything was then perfect. UNFORTUNATELY, the flex was too stiff even after removing one bolt from spine ( now down to 120 flex) so, in sale at S+R, bought a X Max 100 ( 2015/16). I'd say the boot was a tiny bit wider with slightly more wriggle toe box room to. NO NEED for additional boot stretch over toes this time. 100 flex seems perfect for me and i can ADD a bolt to stiffen up to approx 110 flex if need be.
Truly the best best fitting boot i've ever had.

Not a true canted boot. No physical adjustment to alter the angle of the seated foot on the base board. HOWEVER ( experiment at your own risk !), the baseboard can be ground / sanded easily, also, the underside of the footbed can be custom modified too. Take great care and consideration if you feel in a DIY mood. Remember you have 2 legs and when standing on a horizontal surface, your hips should be perfectly horizontal to ( providing your legs are of identical length). So you really have to THINK about what your doing and have the ways and means to quantify the necessary adjustment.

My right liner has been heated up 3 times now without any detriment that i can tell - fitting beautifully now.

During the heating process, boot cuff alignment to leg is done via the pliable plastic conforming to your leg position.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Many thanks for the info, very useful. I wouldn't embark on the DIY you mention, but I was under the impression, that when the boot is heated up, to some degree that canting gets adjusted (edge and wax video on youtube...)... I am pretty heavy, so hope the 130 will be nice, I can certainly flex it very easily in the warm room, but will be interesting how that works in the freezing cold... Really looking forward to trying them on the slope...
When somebody warms up the liner a second or third time, does that "puff" up everywhere, or where it has been compressed already, that will stay like that.. (Contrary to the S+R advice, the plastic shell will not shrink down anymore after it has been expanded from what I understand... )

After all it is free

@szladob, Not a 'TRUE' canted boot - there is no 'canting' adjustment under foot. The boot 'cuff' will comply to your leg ( think here , bow-in or bow-out) shape / orientation by plastic stretching only. You must be standing at normal ski width legs apart, on a good horizontal, flat and solid surface.
It's been my experience that the plastic shell considerably stiffens between room temp at 20c and mountain temp at -10c. I have attempted to get them on / off at these temps and it's been a very difficult experience.The boot being designed for a low volume foot. The 2015/6 model is better than the 2014/5 model IMO i.e easier to get on/off.
I would say in reheating the liners, yes there is only a slight resetting of initial shape. A 'packed out' liner can't be reincarnated to 'as new'
I would agree the plastic shell heating and stretching is a one way trip - always outwards / bigger although i'm not a boot technician.

@szladob, with heat moulding it's still possible to fine tune the fit. If they do the boots up very tightly when moulding they will be slightly looser afterwards, conversely if the boots are done up looser then they will be tighter. If your feet are being squeezed/crushed sidewards then they could be agony and damage your foot when skiing.
My advice would be to get them molded but have a good chat with the fitter beforehand.

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@szladob, with me, the boots were the best fit i've ever had even PRIOR to heat fitting. Only the tiniest squeeze across the toes (2014/15 version) and none in the X Max 100 2015/16 version. If that's the case, no fitting issues, then i know a good boot fitter that won't actually put you through the heating process. - I WAS surprised to hear that ! Even the tongue is heat mold-able and for me this particular fitting aspect, the tongue to shin interface MUST be the best i can get as i have suffered with shin blisters and had to use Epitacts shin pads to stop that.
For me, i experimented with minor wedges under footbed , pairing down baseboard / footbed until happy with alignment and 'feeling' through load path from foot underside to hip in both static and low dynamic conditions. Get an expert like CEM to do this ( if you think it's required) or experiment yourself if willing to take full responsibility for damaging your boots and potentially your body parts to !

With adjusted baseboards, footbeds, and wearing thin socks (Falke SK4), armed with a vertical laser, that's when i got the custom heating done.

YES, all very anal really and time consuming. I'm very pleased with the 'on snow' feedback and i'm totally certain i can set and hold an edge much easier now on my right leg.

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Many thanks for all the info.

How much more packing out can one expect from the liner, if let's say only the liner has been heat molded (especially in a relatively thin liner that the 130 has)? I am thinking that it is maybe worth waiting a bit with the outer shell heating, as that is a one way street from my understanding...

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@szladob, Honestly i can't really tell you. It depends on multiple factors... 1, how heavy you are. 2, how aggressive you ski. 3, how often you ski. 4, how sweaty your feet are. 5, do you air dry your boots (liners) after skiing etc.
People that i know have skied have probably had a good 200 / 300 hours out of the liner ( basing on a min of 4~6 hr a week over 50 wk / yr ) at my local ski dome - but these were guys using the softer X Max100 but of similar thickness.

There are advances in boots all the time. I was once paranoid over a previous boot that i'd gone through many tasks to get just right. I really thought all i wanted was was a new liner when it came to replace the liner so i spent about £160 and went with the old shell - mistake really. Good fit job etc but liner was just a bit loose in boot.

Basically i waited for sales to knock about 1/3 off price. Then i went trying and buying again.

I have Salomon xmax 130 and didn't do heat mould as they fit me very nicely. At first it was a very tight fit, but no pressure points. The grip loosened a bit in few days of skiing and now they still feel the same after 40 or so skiing days.
Difficult to advise, but if you have any pressure points, mould them. If they fit perfectly now, maybe wait until after few days of skiing.

You know it makes sense.

@szladob, yeah agree with @Chevagi, but also i'll say this, i had an ankle which had poor angulation. I mechanically stressed it and got it pronating more only for a small blister to occur just above the ankle bone - hastily i went back to the boot supplier as they immediately slapped a thick piece of foam on the ankle and heated up the shell ( not with the liner inside) and did a 're-fit'. Sadly it made the ankle ever so likely loose - WHOOPS!
So, to overcome this slop, i added three layers of Gorilla tape ( in total 1mm) where i thought i needed more support and it worked well. I'm saying, if your liner gets loose it's perfectly possible to ADD thickness wherever you need with tape either to the shell or directly to the liner outside. Sure you will loose some resilience, replacing it with non conforming tape etc but 'slop and freedom' can be reduced /removed.
Also, if you're handy, you can also get hold of 2mm self adhesive closed cell neoprene foam. Using impact adhesive to permanently adhere it to the liner outer OR by using a Gaffa tape in a kind of 'boot construction', the neoprene can be successfully 'held in place' and again, slop reduced / removed.

I hope this allays some of your concerns.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@szladob, Salomon shells can be heat moulded multiple times, possibly an infinite number though I'm not sure anyone's tested that. You should do the outer and inner boots together. So just get them done. They are much better if you do (because of the automatic canting alignment etc.) If the liners pack out, get the shells re-done, they will shrink.

It's really not a one-time decision, you can mess around with Salomon custom shells to your heart's content. Liners are liners, once they pack down, they pack down. If they feel sloppy, re-do the shells. That's it. You don't even need to visit a shop, you can do the shells in the sink with a couple of kettles of boiling water. Just make sure you stand on completely even ground whilst they set so the cant is correct for a neutral stance.

Waiting now for CEM to shoot me down, ha ha wink

A snowHead

A snowHead

@Raceplate, I've heard anecdotal evidence as to 5 x times the plastic shell can be heated up etc by bootfitters along with diminishing results. I've also heard of the shell having a little memory to the original manufactured shape that attempts shrinking slightly back - i understood that to mean, not alot but a little...In the 3 times i've had the right boot heated i'd agree with that to - a very, very subtle shrink back from last stretch. I have no idea how long these shell's last to be honest. All i can say is that even out of the box it was the best fit i've ever had...ps. I don't crank the buckles down too hard - had these on for ~40 hours ( 20 on/off times) - no noticeable liner compaction for me. wink

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Tim Heeney, this is a memory test but I think Salomon actually quoted 5 times as the limit on Gen 1. I've personally done 8 times on a Gen 2 with no issue. I believe that now the design is more integral and less modular it's supposed to be infinite. I stand to be corrected.

No offence but the fact that yours fitted great on first go is moot. Everyone's foot is different. I would have loved XMax 130's but I could barely even get them on. And 40 hours is nothing for a liner. Around 10 weeks on snow is when it's likely to be maximum compacted IMO.

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@Raceplate, Quick question, when did 'Gen 2' come into being. I've got 2014/15 130 XMax and 2015/16 100 XMax and i'm sure these boots are from those years (seasons). Do you know which 'Gen' these are - just wondering and thanks in advance if you know.

Agree my first time experience fit, is of no importance to the question asked of Shell / Liner and longevity of heat molding properties nor wear progression vs time and usage etc.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Many thanks for the helpful comments. I have called Salomon customer service at some point (although not sure how knowledgable the guy was) as I kept hearing both ways, whether the plastic can shrink or not, and he said not. To me, pure logic would say, that when you heat up a plastic, and stretch it, how would the molecules pack back close to each other again... Nonetheless, I could see the argument about the memory effect of the plastic on reheating..

I guess for the heat molding process as well you can certainly hear more than one versions around; heating shell and putting liner in (which claimed to heat up from the hot shell), or heating up the liner first, then the shell as well... (or vica versa)... ??

For those of you who have the 130 - how much firmer does it get in the cold? To me it almost feels like too soft in the warm room, but tried to put it outside a bit (but only 6-7 degrees around here) where I could sense that it is becoming a different beast.. (especially to get into it Smile

)

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Actually I have found an Alpine tech manual (14-15) online, which states under FAQ:

Can the shell change forms several times?
As many times as you want! The wider the foot, the more the shell will expand. But it won’t come back...

Does the plastic retract the same as normal boots when cooled?
Yes, but two times less than normal plastic: approximately 25% after the boots have been taken out (a shell pushed out 4mm could come back to 3 mm).

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Go to your local CPAM. I didn't have an official security number before my Carte Vitale arrived (it was allocated when I applied for the card I believe). Had to fill in a few forms but it was relatively painless and didn't take as long as expected (2/3 months or so). But definitely head in in person as the forms were not the same as the ones I found online.

@szladob, so you now have some good information. I'd agree with the small contraction i.e 25% etc. from the 3 times i've heated up my right foot and with @Raceplate, comments, clearly there is some shrinking effect upon heating. For me there has been nothing dramatic (stretch out or shrink back) as i never really had a shell fitting issue. But from my limited experience if you've biased the cuff of the boot out ( to fit your lower leg) whilst standing upon a level / flat and stable surface at normal ski width apart etc., try to remember that if heating up the shell again, it's important to replicate this 'Ideal set-up position' or the small memory plastic recall may try to slightly re-position your cuff alignment without permission!

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@Raceplate, Thanks for that info - appreciate it.

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Many thanks for the helpful posts. I kind of made up my mind that I will just start skiing with the boots, as I don't feel any pressure points wearing it in the living room Smile

..
But then now I have heard, that if I were to heat mold the liner, the foam will expand at the high temperature, thus technically fill in some spaces, that I presume would never happen just by skiing the liner - is this correct information? Most other info i have heard suggested that the heat molding of the liner only accelerates the break in...

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I just got the Quest Max 130 as an all round off piste boot after trying the Quest pro 110 (a bit too soft for me but now for bargain sale after only 7 part days use and not heat treated at all hint hint).

I too am trying mine with no heat treatment until the liner packs in a bit and then I will see how they do. The fitter did say that he usually finds that the overall fit gets a touch looser after the shell moulding process and I do prefer a snug fit. So far they are pretty comfy, the flex seems to be about right but I am having to get used to a slightly more upright stance than my piste boots. Have tested them with mid-fats and slalom skis but no powder is available currently to take out the big guns. But I have no doubt that for short tours and playing around in the forests they are going to be a lot more comfortable than the old race boots Laughing

@szladob, I'm going to ski a week or so in them over the next month and then get the liner heat moulded once it has packed down a touch.

You know it makes sense.

@szladob, just go skiing. Whatever happens , happens and then sort it out. A perfect boot is a rare thing to be cherished but there's so much to skiing that i doubt a perfect boot is anybodies biggest issue - sure it can nag at you. If you have a lovely snug fit that's a great start. Wear will happen after skiing - go skiing and achieve something new, some new sensations that i'm sure will outweigh minor boot niggles if you have any at all.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Interesting. Well I will get mine done in the next few days. I've only been skiing in them for a hour or two at a time and not pushing it much.

A snowHead

From my experience with Intuition Liners it is definitely a good idea to heat mold as it will change the way the liner feels. It will compress only in the areas needed and will keep a tight fit. Intuition Liners can also be heat molded many times over if you want to re-mold them.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

If I am correct, the intuition liner is a different category though, as those have to be heated to mold to someone's leg, while most other heat moldable liners will mold to the leg one way or another...

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@szladob, I think @Fluid Motion Sports is just looking for any excuse to mention Intuition Liners - almost like they had a job lot of them they were trying to shift Toofy Grin

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Just went to visit my boot tech (he is very experienced, does Marcel Hirscher's boots along with a multitude of other WC and speed ski racers) and had some softer custom foot beds moulded for the Salomon boots (needed for very high arches). As I have one ankle slightly larger dating from an off road motorbike crash many years ago he ground a little from the boot's foot board to relieve pressure on the top of the right foot. His advice was to ski another few days with the boots before thinking about doing the shell heat moulding treatment as in his experience they always end up a touch wider overall after this process, and as I have narrow heels this may cause problems. If I have any pressure points he can sort out these in isolation. The standard liners in the Quest Max seem very comfy and suited to my feet so I am hopeful that after another couple of short ski sessions they will bed in (pretty snug at the moment).

Help!!

Heat mold or not?

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