 Poster: A snowHead
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can anyone answer my Q's below or point me in the direction of a web site that explains all about bindings. after being a long time supporter of ski hire shops i may be taking the plunge and buying skis after testing the armada invictus at tamworth so i now need to educate myself on bindings.
bindings that have the toe piece and heel piece mounted on a plate i know can be adjusted length wise to accommodate different size boots. does this also apply when the heel and toe are separate and mounted directly onto the ski?
what is the advantage of having separate toe heel piece over those mounted onto a plate.?
Even though there is a din setting range is there a reliability factor based on your weight capacity against max din setting?
I am a fairly aggressive skier and enjoy all terrain - is there any type of binding i should avoid?
any other useful factoids on bindings would be appreciated.
ta very muchly
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@MogulMonkey, The ski manufacturers dreamed up plates as a way pf making you by a binding every time you bought a ski. Having a toe and heel piece move does give you a wider range of adjustment --- but when was the last time you feet changed size ? Bindings mounted on flat skis (no plate) also have some adjustment.
Cleverer folk will be along in a sec, but for me --- I like plates on skis for hard snow, carving etc --- as the plate gives you a little more leverage --- for off piste etc I prefer no plate as this makes the ski easier/lighter to carry !
Bindings are all tested/certified so they are all safe. As for DIN best to go for a binding that has your setting in the middle of the range.
If you are taking the plunge on skis for the first time --- then ski choice is way more important (IMV) --- you need to get on some skis and test them. Hire shops will let you demo and then offset the rental against a new pair. Hope that helps
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| MogulMonkey wrote: |
| bindings that have the toe piece and heel piece mounted on a plate i know can be adjusted length wise to accommodate different size boots. does this also apply when the heel and toe are separate and mounted directly onto the ski? |
There's some adjustment range in the heel; how much depends on the binding. You can also remount the binding if needs be.
| MogulMonkey wrote: |
| what is the advantage of having separate toe heel piece over those mounted onto a plate.? |
They can be (re)mounted on any ski, not just ones with a specific fancy binding system. Also things light stack height, binding weight, cost and availability, etc.
| MogulMonkey wrote: |
| Even though there is a din setting range is there a reliability factor based on your weight capacity against max din setting? |
Not entirely sure what you mean here. There are some other threads here and elsewhere discussing release values, have you had a look at those?
| MogulMonkey wrote: |
| I am a fairly aggressive skier and enjoy all terrain - is there any type of binding i should avoid? |
This is the internet; everyone is an aggressive skier here, whatever 'aggressive' means 
Pretty much any modern alpine binding that has a suitable release value for you will be just fine. Everything else is just personal preference.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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thanks for the replies.
i have about 25-30 weeks under my belt and know my way around the the ski market and always like to understand whats available from the hire shops and change the skis depending on the conditions. never bothered about costs of ski hire in the past as it never been much of an impact to hire for the 3 weeks a year that we ski in europe however this year and next we are having 2 weeks in USA as well as a week in France.ski hire in usa is twice the price of france which is why we are considering buying.
@Serriadh, i have been told this afternoon by one of the large ski sellers from europe that " as soon as the binding spring is tight at 70% or more of its capacity it starts being less reliable" hence the reason for my question or was that just upselling the bindings.?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I have been told repeatedly that din ranges at either end of a din rating for a binding are less reliable so that probably backs what you have been told.
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| nemesys wrote: |
| I have been told repeatedly that din ranges at either end of a din rating for a binding are less reliable so that probably backs what you have been told. |
You regularly hear that you should try and keep your DIN somewhere in the middle - but does this really make sense since DIN is a standard that bindings are tested to, therefore you would assume that the standard specifies consist release across the entire range, otherwise it would just be guidance?
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| ski wrote: |
| --- but when was the last time you feet changed size ? |
Well actually when you buy new boots you may find that they change sole length.
My race boots have a different sole length than my (semi-)touring boots which is annoying
A rental type binding that adjusts would just be a pain as I'd have to adjust it and check it everytime I swapped boots - fortunately I came up with a better solution, just buy so many skis I can match skis to boot 
For the infrequent case that you do buy new boots and the sole length changes you can always get flat mounted bindings remounted if the change is big enough that it can't be dealt with by the binding adjustment (even bindings such as Rossi pivots which are my binding of choice have a little bit of adjustment)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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my question about adjusting the length was more aimed at letting someone else use my skis, should i even consider this after what will be an expensive pair of skis  .
how much adjustment would there be if they were the separate toe/heel 2 piece binding - +/- 10mm ?
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To MogulMonkey.....................
If a given ski as per mfgr. comes with binding, it is/was solely designed to force the buyer like it or not to have to buy THAT (brand) binding as both companies teamed up for shared profit. Many skiers do not care nor pay any attention to the brand of binding, believing all brands work equally which they do not. Yes, bindings work and they've made monumental improvement over the past two decades here and there, but they're not all equal. Some plate systems affect a partial floating front which can improve overall performance per se., allowing greater flexation (lessening the binding imposed flat spot) on the part of the ski, as well allowing the binding to act more naturally/freely. Some skis come as they traditionally used to sans bindings allowing the buying to mount most bindings of their choice. I tend to never mention any brand of equipment, but this once I will openly and most unapologetically state that I am highly prejudiced toward/for Look TURNTABLE bindings, period! Once you understand why the (Look) TURNTABLE heel is the best out there, you never go back. (They're also the easiest to get into in deep powder/powder and easily accomodate tieing off powder cord - flourescent surveyors tape unlike most step in heels. You haven't lived until you're skiing in deep powder and without powder cord, loose a ski............................................................................................... Bindings whose heel allows for tie off are invaluable)
But, I would if I had to ski on two or three other systems (bindings) starting with Tyrolia and not fret. One critical area of release/retention performance is not the binding, but instead the boot. About 99.99999% of skiers walk all over the joint in their boots, (something I never do) and by walking to no end in their boots critically compromise the interface between boot and binding via wear which impacts release and retention. How do I avoid this problem? Simple........ For over thirty years I have walked to the lift in sneakers/tennis shoes. What's with that? The small backpack on my back is where my boots are, as well, an extra set of goggles, gloves, a balaclava if need be, other provisions and simply at the lift, on snow, I switch out. How easy is that? Utterly. The sneakers go into the compressable back pack that goes flat as a pancake via the critically important compression straps (as in plural) and I ski with it all day. At the end of the day I reverse out and walk off the slopes with ease, nice as you please which, especially at that time - post skiing - does wonders for my legs because I am not in that "Frankenstein" mode that boots inherently precipiate. And my boots never suffer. The soles look brand new. No wear. No tear. And my binding/boot interface is as it should be, uncompromised.
On a sliding premounted system in most instances the user has the ability to adjust both the toe and heel, in effect, it's the rental system set up. Remember, the balance point as referenced typically on the ski, most certainly the boot is typically coordinted - centered - and appropriates ideal balance set up when matched. Some have in the past on systems that allow for traditional mounting either stuck with perfect centering or varied - deviated from "zero" by .5mm if they choose but the latter gets into esoteric territory and should be dismissed in this diatribe..................... On standard mounting (non adjustable system - direct mounting to ski) once the toe is set, it is set, period. Game over. The heel can be lightly adjusted fore and aft but typically by no more than 1mm.
In terms of DIN, you go (set) with what the book says as per your weight, height, boot length and "ability" and if anything discount as it were or lower your "ability" by one notch because the most dangerous situation is the slow twisting fall where load builds up over longer duration upon bone, ligament, tendon and muscle. More slow twisting falls have claimed a skier than those at speed. At speed the load is comparatively instantaneous. Not so at slow speed. And a good binding, one with lots of elasticity is your best friend in such a situation. And where possible, select a binding whose spring rate is not overkill, in other words within range, e.g., you need a setting of 5 and the DIN base rate on the springs is 8. Or if you need a DIN of 10 and the spring max's out at 10................., capice? I've seen kids back in the day who were on full on racing bindings whose DIN base was 12 when they needed a maximum of say 5. Hola! Your reference of the "70%" factor is most accurate. I follow it strictly.
I more than understand your desire to buy, especially if you come to Obamastan (Heil Obama - Sieg Heil, by the way) where your hire skis are unfortunately too, too dear in price, but with the utmost deference to you, the type of ski you reference is a mega wide ski with a v. large/long radius and as an overall ski be same in Europe or the new USSR - the former United States, I highly advocate either an all-mountain ski or a carving all-mountain ("piste") ski whose radius tends not to exceed 18mm, typicaly in the 15mm - to - 18mm range. These type of skis are, hands down, far and away most capable and sound selection overall upon any mountain, in all conditions. From true - real powder, to hardpack, to slush, moguls, front side, back side and in between, they do it best.
No sport has witnessed so much stupidity as has skiing in terms of equipment. I've seen the most insanely stupid nonsense over decades, it never ends. I adore the sport, I've done it all my life, but wow, the stupidity........, skin diving snorkels, boots whose cuff went essentially all the way to the knee, fully riveted boots that did not flex, the infamous Marker "Explode-O-Mat", worst ever; the Burt Binding replete with slice your head off helicopter release system, RS1 Skis, Smith goggles with fans, the list goes............ And today is no exception.............. Case in point, today's "powder skis". Powder skis as wide (read: ridiculous) as water skis, if not float plane pontoons. Insane. Even Grandma Moses in a walker could shred big pow...............
While there is no best brand of ski, nor any one single best ski design for general recreational purposes, among most mfgrs. all-arounders/all-mountain or piste skis these days, they have you covered.
If you buy skis, at season's end, prep them out inclusive of waxing but not scraping base and, recording the exact setting of your bindings and safely placing that setting number away in case you forget what it is, turn out your springs both toe and heel to zero so as to take the load of them, return to setting to its DIN at the beginning of next season, scrape of wax, polish and go..............
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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MogulMonkey remember ... I did tell you that you'd like the Armada Invictus ... shame about the graphics, though 
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| stuarth wrote: |
| nemesys wrote: |
| I have been told repeatedly that din ranges at either end of a din rating for a binding are less reliable so that probably backs what you have been told. |
You regularly hear that you should try and keep your DIN somewhere in the middle - but does this really make sense since DIN is a standard that bindings are tested to, therefore you would assume that the standard specifies consist release across the entire range, otherwise it would just be guidance? |
I had a World Cup boot fitter and ski tech tell me that as long as you back off 0.5 Din from the end points you are totally fine. The middle range does appear to be somewhat of an urban myth.
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You know it makes sense.
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| MogulMonkey wrote: |
| @Serriadh, i have been told this afternoon by one of the large ski sellers from europe that " as soon as the binding spring is tight at 70% or more of its capacity it starts being less reliable" hence the reason for my question or was that just upselling the bindings.? |
The release properties will be slightly different when you've maxed out the release value, but by the only standards that anyone uses for measuring the reliability of a release (eg, the usual ISO/DIN stuff everyone talks about), they are no less reliable. That's the whole point of the standard, you see.
If you use a release value of 8, it isn't a terrible idea to use a binding with a 6-14 range instead of a 4-10 range (for example), because the high-range binding is probably a bit tougher (though how often do people explode bindings?). Either binding should be perfectly adequate, though.
There is some talk about preload and elastic travel elsewhere, but no-one has actually managed to quantify the difference it makes. Take it with a pinch of salt
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| MogulMonkey wrote: |
can anyone answer my Q's below
bindings that have the toe piece and heel piece mounted on a plate i know can be adjusted length wise to accommodate different size boots. does this also apply when the heel and toe are separate and mounted directly onto the ski?
what is the advantage of having separate toe heel piece over those mounted onto a plate.? |
Bindings with no plate/slide are pretty rigid underfoot ie the ski from the just in front of the toe unit to the rear of the heel unit does not flex. A ski that can flex throughout it's full length will perform better than one with a rigid middle section as the ski can not flex naturally under load. A binding with a toe and heel unit joined by a bar as in some atomics can allow the bindings unit to move slightly on it's rail thus allowing the ski to flex more naturally but this is still not as natural as without a binding mounted.
I have heard some say the above is a load of cr*p and others swear by it. I believe it does nave an affect but not as much as some company's hype it up as being, and it is very dependant on the skiers level and style of skiing.
Someone more familiar with the Armarda ski hopefully will come along and better inform you as to if it has any real benefit on that particular type of ski in the terrain it is designed for.
By plate you mean either the method of connecting toe and heel units as mentioned above or the other is a riser plate which will allow the skier to have a better leg alignment to the ski edge when carving. Bit more complicated to go into but a carving ski has 3 primary forces acting on it 1. the snow, 2. gravity, and 3. the pressure from the skier setting the ski on edge and pressuring the ski. A true riser plate is not really needed for anyone who is not racing or at least being very dynamic and athletic on their skis. You do not need a riser plate for the Armarda you mention as they are not an on piste racing ski.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Here are two suggestions
Look Pivot 5-14
Marker Jester 6-16
These are both good quality freeride bindings suitable for the ski you are thinking of getting. No you don't want plates on freeride skis, these bindings fit directly onto flat skis. The shop you are buying the skis from might have an alternative suggestion. The two I mention are popular and a good benchmark for comparison. Unless you are either very light or the Incredible Hulk, the DIN range of these suggested bindings should be just fine. If you buy separately online MAKE SURE you get the right width ski brake which is compatible with the waist of the Armadas.
Buy skis and bindings, get them mounted up, go skiing. Not much more to say.
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FAQ
