 Poster: A snowHead
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My youngest son Adam hit is head while having a lesson in the snow park on the glacier at LDA last month. Mine and his skiing was curtailed (although not stopped completely) by the accident,as I had to take him off the mountain one day, and he stayed behind another. I think they will be getting helmets from Santa, esp as I have an off-piste course arranged for them too. Not too much damage forutnately, but it could so easily have been much worse. NOne of us think twice about wearing our helmets when we cycle, so what's the difference?
But it should be our personal choice. There are some arguments for not doing so. I am not too good at hearing anyone speaking from behind me, it would be worse if I had helmet on.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Helen Beaumont wrote: |
| I am not too good at hearing anyone speaking from behind me, it would be worse if I had helmet on. |
Have you tried with a helmet on?
My reason for asking is because if you are used to wearing a hat which is snug over your ears, you may well find you hear better with a helmet which is either open around the ear, or has a mesh in that area.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Maybe it's just me then... I'm often branded a nutter - which I think is unfair. I ALWAYS ski with a beeper, and it's ALWAYS switched on. I ALWAYS ski with a helmet and I ALWAYS ski with protection shorts. So that just makes me over cautious...
On big days I also ski with 30m of rope and lots of other BC equipment. And full torso body armour.
Perhaps I'm just a great big scaredy cat... 
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buns, a very fair point about the minor injuries. But to me that means that helmet wearing should be a personal choice, rather than enforced.
boredsurfin, the ski injuries websites has some statistics about the incidence of injuries. I've been unable to find any peer reviewed papers, although there may be some out there.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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but wearing a helmet will make a massive difference to an individual's safety when that individual has a big crash. Also there is no hardship in wearing one, it is not difficult, uncomfortable or especially expensive, so why not?
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mjg,
A helmet may make a differencein a crash, it may not, most ski injuries do not involve injuries to the head therefore a helmet makes no difference to safety in these cases at best.
Why not? well for me the expense is not trivial though not large. I have limited luggage space why should I waste it on sometning that will be highly unlikely to be of any use. If I want to take it off I have nowhere to put it. If I was serious about using a helmet to avoid head injury I would wear it in the car rather than on the ski slopes as that is where I am more likely to die of one.
buns,
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You could argue a minor injury is no big deal, but if a helmet means I dont have a sore head later that night, or I avoid having a 'cut on my nut', well then that isnt a bad reason to have it.
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I would agree with you and would not want to stop you wearing one, I just don't find it a particularly persuasive reason for me to do so.
boredsurfin,
My own reading of the stats is that mortality is a fairly definite end point and comparisons across different activities are valid.
For Other head injuries comparisons are a lot more difficult as different end points are used but serious ones in skiing appear to be rare.
Clearly not all individuals within a population are likely to have the same risk as the population and some skiing/boarding activities are likely to be a lot more dangerous than others, if you do them wearing a helmet may make sense. But if you think you can do them because you are wearing a helmet then your risk of severe injury may become greater as helmets only offer limited protection against certain injuries.
For me I know I motorcycle more carefully without a helmet and drive more slowly without a seat belt I think it makes a lot of sense for me to ski without a helmet.
NB This does not mean I am advocating driving/cycling without protection.
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parlor, I take it that you do a lot of off-piste? Not a scaredy cat then, just appropriately cautious.
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parlor,
You know how and where you ski this protection may be useful for you I don't know, but it does not mean it applies to everyone.
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Kramer,
We seem to be x posting 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Kramer, I wouldnt suggest enforcing. I do however think that someone suffering any injury because they didnt wear a helmet deserves no particular sympathy.
If an insurance companies were to state that they do not cover head injuries (while skiing/boarding) unless a helmet was being worn, would people take the same attitude? In theory if you do not believe in the risk, you shouldnt be fussed if you are not insured against it....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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the ice perv, well, there are some here who don't wear seat belts, and they probably remove the had restraints from their cars too - they take up too much weight/space in the car!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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buns,
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I do however think that someone suffering any injury because they didnt wear a helmet deserves no particular sympathy.
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Do you think they would deserve sympathy if they sustained a head injury in a car crash without wearing a helmet?
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I avoid having a 'cut on my nut'
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How is a helmet going to prevent that?
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You know it makes sense.
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| the ice perv wrote: |
Interesting to see the traditional anti-helmet macho insecurity is still out there: if you don't like helmets becoz they are heavy, sweaty, too expensive etc then fair enough, don't wear one (I don't either). But to say "I don't need a helmet coz I'm so good I never fall over" sounds ridiculous. Do you wear helmets for anything else? Are you so good a driver that you don't need the seat-belt? As you are "shielded by god" I don't suppose you bother with insurance either?
You do make me laugh Snowheads!!!  |
Hmm..I'm a girl  Actually 'I'm so good I never fall over' is a perfectly reasonable part of risk assessment and maybe I've just been lucky but I've never been taken out by anyone else either...sking at quite a slow speed helps with that I suspect, and keeping a good eye out for anyone travelling quickly....although I would replace never with rarely  Surely 'how likely am I need to need this stuff?' forms part of the decision whether to buy it? If I were going out of my comfort zone (jumps, off piste etc) then I would wear one. In fact I did use to wear one when I raced, and for any trips to the snow park...but for tootling around the piste I just don't think the hassle (transporting it, buying it, wearing it) is worthwhile - see Kramers points about the stats. And I certainly wear helmets for several other activities (horse riding, climbing, snow boarding, and race driving). If I felt the need on piste then the fact they were a hassle would no longer matter - I would just wear them.
To add to the anecdotal - I've been in car accidents 6 times (never as the driver interestingly  ), and I've never met anyone who has had a head injury skiing. The only head injury I have seen skiing was when our rep fell off his bar stool and had to be taken to the local town hospital with a 4" gash.
aj xx
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| T Bar wrote: |
buns,
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I do however think that someone suffering any injury because they didnt wear a helmet deserves no particular sympathy.
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Do you think they would deserve sympathy if they sustained a head injury in a car crash without wearing a helmet? |
I have never once seen the suggestion that helmets should be worn whilst driving.... if they suffered an injury while driving without a seat belt (out of their own choice) then I wouldnt feel sympathy for them. The point is not to take every last safety measure possible, it is to take every sensible measure. In skiing, you have no protection unless you wear it. In a car, the car itself if considered the protection. Motorbiking, that is a different matter, the bike does not protect, hence again you must wear protection
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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buns, that's all that some people are blessed with
Not me I hasten to add
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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buns, when an insurance company states that it is compulsory to wear a helmet then I will reassess, however none have done so far, probably because there's not enough statistical evidence around at the moment to justify such a move.
Personally I feel that anyone who suffers misfortune deserves a bit of compassion and sympathy, no matter what they've done to themselves, but I am a bit soft hearted like that.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Since when do insurance companies need statistical evidence to justify anything? 
People don't wear helmets in cars because you are surrounded by a large metal cage which is already designed to protect you if the car rolls (reinforced windscreen/roll bars in convertables do the same thing before anyone gets pedantic!).
Fine, if you don't want to wear one, don't. I echo buns sentiments that when insurance companies refuse to pay out for any head injury whilst not wearing a helmet I don't expect to hear anyone complaining. Since the risk is apparently so small, who cares if your not covered?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Well seeing as the whole point of insurance is to protect yourself from infrequent events, then I think most people would care.
Can anyone name an insurance company that makes wearing of helmets whilst skiing compulsory?
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buns,
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I have never once seen the suggestion that helmets should be worn whilst driving.... if they suffered an injury while driving without a seat belt (out of their own choice) then I wouldnt feel sympathy for them. The point is not to take every last safety measure possible, it is to take every sensible measure. In skiing, you have no protection unless you wear it. In a car, the car itself if considered the protection.
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In most forms of motorsport including rally driving where other protection is considerably stronger than in family cars a helmet is considered essential equipment. From the available statistics on risk I would seem to be considerably more at risk of being killed in a car crash than in a ski accident why then should I wear a helmet on the slopes but not in a car?
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Seeing as helmets are worn...
| Kramer wrote: |
| .. to protect yourself from infrequent events.... |
I believe the point stands
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T Bar, hardly a relevant comparison: if you are going to draw parallels between rally drivers and skiers then do it with ski-RACERS:- I think you'll find both wear helmets.
Whereas it is not compulsory for recreational purposes for either skiers or drivers. As for the "statistics" I spend far more time driving than I do skiing and there is no comparison in the number of injuries I have received i.e. none whatsoever when driving (including several prangs) including one write-off. OTOH I have cracked ribs, sprained a wrist and banged my head twice when skiing.
And no I didn't hit the chair-lift!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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To an extent a lot of this debate is academic. More and more kids wear helmets these days, and they get to feel 'undressed' without them. the ice perv, on the rally driving - ski racing comparison, the difference is that most ski racers, especially the younger ones, don't take their helmets off when the race is over and they're just free skiing around. Helmets stay firmly in place.
So in the end helmets will end up being worn by more people than not, I reckon, from sheer habit as much as from safety requirements.
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T Bar, I would answer, but the ice perv did so for me. You might be able to compare back country off piste skiing to rallying, but even those who admit to not wearing helmets on piste will wear a helmet in that situation.
Kramer, I wasnt meaning compulsory. I was going into a thought experiment. Assume an insurer covers you and you can go without a helmet. However, they state that head injuries are not insured unless a helmet is worn. So you are not forced to wear one. But would you take the financial risk of not wearing one?
PG highlights a good point, the younger guys (even teenagers) will very often wear helmets without thinking about it. You must admit, it is rare that you find a young age group intentionally choosing a safer stand point than their seniors!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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IanB, as long as people realise that they're wearing them to protect against an infrequent event then they can make the decision for themselves.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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buns, in your scenario then essentially you are forced to wear one. The insurer has changed the circumstances so far increasing the benefits of wearing the helmet (ie you're covered by insurance if you do) that it would be stupid not to. But no insurer has done this so far, because I presume that it is unllikely that there would be a net benefit for them to do so, due to the rarity of significant head injuries compared to other types of injury.
We can talk about the what ifs, but I would prefer to stick to what's actually happening at the moment.
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Kramer,
the suggestion is that those who say that the danger of a head injury whilst skiing is so insignificant to make wearing a helmet pointless wouldn't be bothered by an insurance policy that only paid out for head injuries if you were wearing a helmet - because the chances of them ever claiming for a head injury is unlikely.
Of course we all know this is wrong - people who claim that it's pointless wearing a helmet because they'd never get a head injury would be up in arms if an insurance company applied this rule "forcing" them to wear helmets (which, it obviously isn't, it's simply asking you do decide if the risk of getting a head injury is high enough for you to require insurance cover for it).
This raises the question - if you think the risk of a head injury is so low that you don't need to wear a helmet, why do you think its high enough to want insurance cover for it?
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You know it makes sense.
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IanB, because insurance should be comprehensive to cover any eventualities. The insurance is not about preventing me getting an injury, it's about making sure that if I do get one then I don't get bankrupted in the process, which is a different thing entirely. Also the insurance covers a whole bunch of things that I'm unlikely ever to need.
Also in terms of expenditure, my insurance for a head injury is much cheaper than a helmet and much more convenient.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Wear The Fox Hat, I quite often don't wear anything on my head at all, unless the weathers bad. I've always hated wearing anything on my head.
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Poster: A snowHead
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But does that not mean you are happy enough to accept the possibility of a head injury, as long as you are not bankrupted by it? That would mean you consider money more important than health.....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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PG,
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most ski racers, especially the younger ones, don't take their helmets off when the race is over
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So in the end helmets will end up being worn by more people than not, I reckon, from sheer habit as much as from safety requirements.
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That's no bad thing IMO. The fact they do keep their skid-lids on once competition is over, and rally drivers don't, just proves my point i.e. that helmets are far more relevant to everyday skiing than everyday driving.
As I said in an earlier post, I don't wear a helmet, but the idea that people who do are fashion victims is total BS.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| people who do are fashion victims is total BS. |
Have to say stevepick's points on fashion, broken ribs and ACL injuries didn't make much sense to me either! I had been wondering what effect an unhelmeted cranium would have on his ribs if the two collided at speed. I was definitely confused by the point about the failure of helmets to protect against ACL injuries, and as for people wearing helmets because the ski fashion industry has persuaded them it's necessary, well.... for someone with a ski racing brother, that is total... erm... how did you describe it, ice perv?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| buns wrote: |
| But does that not mean you are happy enough to accept the possibility of a head injury, as long as you are not bankrupted by it? |
Well if I'm doing something high risk then I wear the helmet, but I guess that if I'm doing something low risk then yes I accept the risk of a head injury and try and minimise the consequences if it were to happen by purchasing insurance to prevent banruptcy and make sure that I get appropriate treatment.
| buns wrote: |
| That would mean you consider money more important than health..... |
That's a very black and white statement, however money and health are inextricably linked.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Kramer, As you are heading to the EOSB at VT, may I suggest that you wear your helmet at every piste crossing point, and especially in the nursery areas near to the town 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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snowbunny, why's that?
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That doesn't sound very pleasant, I take it that you're not coming to the EOSB then?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Kramer, You guessed, my secret is out
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| Kramer wrote: |
| Also in terms of expenditure, my insurance for a head injury is much cheaper than a helmet and much more convenient. |
The lying in a Intensive Care Unit bed for a few weeks after having some guy poke around in your skull is going to really hamper the old social life though isn't it?
Personnally, I consider that far more inconvenient than a broken helmet and a couple of pain killers for the headache... but hey, free choice and all that..
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FAQ
I was speaking in the singular 
There was a constant flow of ambulance cars going past our apartment all week to this point at the base of the resort. I would want full body armour before I ventured onto their badly managed slopes again 
