 Poster: A snowHead
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
| stewart woodward,An BASI instructor took the ESF to the European Court and won a few years back re the Test Technique & the restrictions they place on foreign instructors (under the freedom of Labour or something) & won, but ESF accepted the ruling and moved the goal post a few days later so the subverted the judgment via the back door. Can remember the exact details but there is a thread here on it somewhere. |
If you are Danish or Belgium, allegedly, you can get a 'Levere de Formation' after passing your ISIA but do not need test Technique. Why do BASI members need Test Technique?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Toast . . . hosting banned . . . no word yet on the Tea Club
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The ESF though decided not to abandon the court case and we have seen a copy of the email from the ESF to the British Tour Operators informing them of that decision.
"Concerning the actions that begun with the French authorities concerning ski hosting, we are unfortunately, not in a position to change our decision. We realise the consequences that this will incur but the SNMSF's position in relation to the French law on the subject cannot allow us to simply withdraw from the matter.
We realise that many of you go to great lengths concerning safety within your companies but we consider that this type of activity in general could create problems and is contrary to the efforts being made in France by the resorts to reduce the number of accidents on the slopes."
The email came from the Director General of the Syndicat National des Moniteurs de Ski Francais, Jean-Marc Simon. |
http://www.planetski.eu/news/4683
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So it's quite simple - if you previously enjoyed ski hosting and hoped to go again in France, go into the ESF Office in resort, book a weeks' ski lessons for all your party.....and then when the time comes to get out your credit card say "Wait, didn't the ESF collude in stopping TO ski hosting, I've changed my mind".
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Masque wrote: |
| Toast . . . hosting banned . . . no word yet on the Tea Club |
Not really suprised but 'Planet ski's' article says
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| leaders of organised groups must be fully qualified |
So how are stagieres going to work? I think a copy of the actual judgement is required
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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SHOCKING DECISION!
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stewart woodward, usual can of dead worms. I now suspect the ESF will offer an 'economic' service to the TOs to keep those stagieres busy in the down times. I still think there may be a hint of a business opportunity in this. Lots more to come out yet and Crystal is saying it will appeal.
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| Steve Angus wrote: |
| SHOCKING DECISION! |
AS IN BEING COMPLETELY PREDICTABLE! 
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No surprise, let's see what the judgement say... maybe along the lines of "The ESF is to provide a course to ensure hosts are trained up to standard" ... just maybe. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Of course Crystal is saying it will appeal. But only as a PR exercise IMV. Max the publicity and then use resultant marketing (and possibly leverage) to a) increase punter flow to other countries and b) squash purchasing costs on the accommodation owners in France, sighting the selfish ESF for driving away clients and the need to drop prices to maintain business in France
Well, that's what I would do....
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Well this is going to get interesting really quickly, any, below is Article 49 FREE MOVEMENT OF PERSONS, SERVICES AND CAPITAL - Chapter 2: Right of establishment - Article 49 (ex Article 43 TEC) from the EU.
Article 49
(ex Article 43 TEC)
Within the framework of the provisions set out below, restrictions on the freedom of establishment of nationals of a Member State in the territory of another Member State shall be prohibited. Such prohibition shall also apply to restrictions on the setting-up of agencies, branches or subsidiaries by nationals of any Member State established in the territory of any Member State.
Freedom of establishment shall include the right to take up and pursue activities as self-employed persons and to set up and manage undertakings, in particular companies or firms within the meaning of the second paragraph of Article 54, under the conditions laid down for its own nationals by the law of the country where such establishment is effected, subject to the provisions of the Chapter relating to capital.
There is also Directive 2006/123/EC of 12 December 2006 on services in the internal market,
It will be really interesting to see how this goes a drop in the business of the ESF school in the relevant village next year would really lead to some tough questions.
If you wanted to be really silly and extend the logic of the ESF Piste Maps should be banned!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Chasseur, i really don't think the ski hosting is that much of a booking driver.
We have around 350 clients a year, albeit self catering and none ever benefit from hosting - i suspect few frequent the ESF either.
I don't see this affecting my business whatsoever.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Chasseur, MY feeling is as much as the hosting is liked and it is there will be little the TO's will do as France is where all the eggs are. They may look to move out but I would think it would be cost saving* rather lack of hosting. It will take a few years to build up the same level of chalets in another country.
* I believe the next French step will be to go after the chalet hosts on the grounds of breaking French employment laws and in that case that will drive the TO's out.
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under a new name, it was ever so slightly tongue in cheek...but I would expect Crystal, as a major player, to maximise the publicity.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| * I believe the next French step will be to go after the chalet hosts on the grounds of breaking French employment laws and in that case that will drive the TO's out. |
Hmmmm . . . not sure they'd be that crazy, but if they did it would make an interesting court case.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think I posted about http://www.skifriends.be/ before. They offer hosting and some of their hosts in L2A are dreadful both at skiing and group management. This should apply to them too but then the French don't dislike Belgians quite as much (do they?).
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Mon 18-02-13 18:04; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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I for one see ski hosting as a fairly important (not deal breaker) element of my choice in booking. As a dad with a wife that doesn't ski and kids in lessons in the am and no family friends that ski, I find ski hosting a good way of skiing with others at a similar level without trying to force myself on anyone the night before in the chalet / hotel. It's a real shame that this decision has been amde and I for one hope the ESF / the authorities / British tour OPS find a way round this.
I was looking forward to my Esprit hosting in Val d'Isere in March!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Claude B, These are the Dutch speaking Belgique . . . so perhaps not.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Masque, One of easiski's pet hates, many a good rant about them 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Dwarf Vader wrote: |
| No surprise, let's see what the judgement say... maybe along the lines of "The ESF is to provide a course to ensure hosts are trained up to standard" ... just maybe. |
Have to wait until tomorrow
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The court will give the reasons for its decision tomorrow, Tuesday.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Chasseur wrote: |
| Of course Crystal is saying it will appeal. |
Crystal cannot appeal, they are not a party to the prosecution AFAIKS. Le Ski can appeal but I think the boss has already shot himself in the foot by (according to the Peanutski.eu article) claiming the French courts are biased and always find for the locals.
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| "As we expected the court in Albertville has taken the side of the locals and the protectionist agenda of the ESF. We will be appealling and the case now goes to a court in Chambery. The fight goes on and we will take this all the way," |
I would imagine the Chambery court would take note of his opinion and probably increase any penalty on appeal. Best to keep your mouth shut if you want to appeal a decision.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Masque wrote: |
| Lots more to come out yet and Crystal is saying it will appeal. |
Masque where did that come from?
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Masque, no worries 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| Masque wrote: |
| Toast . . . hosting banned . . . no word yet on the Tea Club |
Not really suprised but 'Planet ski's' article says
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| leaders of organised groups must be fully qualified |
So how are stagieres going to work? I think a copy of the actual judgement is required |
I imagine the court has simply confirmed the current legislation in force which allows for stagieres.
Contrary to what has been written, this isn't an important test case. If le Ski appeal and it goes to the Cour de Cassasation then it will be, or even Europe.
The only way le Ski will win on appeal is to introduce and have accepted some European legislation. They'd better find a more competent lawyer than the one thay had at Albertville whose defense (from what I read in the Dauphine Libere coverage) was never going to fly. They'll need someone from Paris who specializes in European law.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 18-02-13 19:19; edited 2 times in total
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Well that's peed me right off! I do use the ski hosting services as on some trips I ski solo. Also when I go with away my mum. I hate skiing on my own.
I wonder what Mark Warner will do about this, as it's a big selling point for booking with them. Now what am I going to do about my March trip?
I suppose they'll just have to put up a sign up sheet for guests who want to ski with other people.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Peanutski.eu |
The jewelled journalism of www.Pistehors.com has often been noted on these pages.
Is this not an ideal opportunity to prove your superiority (allowing for the fact that Planetski got the scoop) ... or is this topic simply too mundane for your elevated values?
I see that Pistehors had an excellent story 8 days ago about 'too much snow' in the Pyrenees ...
http://pistehors.com/news/ski/comments/1077-snow-too-much-of-a-good-thing/
But that's yesterday's news! The future of on-piste and off-piste 'leading' in France - by unqualified leaders - would seem highly relevant for your esteemed readers.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I had a wander over to the SKUC and peered through a crack in the toilet door to find no more than a 'move along now, nothing to see here or affect us' attitude from the High Muckamucks. I suggest the club has a done deal with the ESF behind the backs of all others.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| So it's quite simple - if you previously enjoyed ski hosting and hoped to go again in France, go into the ESF Office in resort, book a weeks' ski lessons for all your party.....and then when the time comes to get out your credit card say "Wait, didn't the ESF collude in stopping TO ski hosting, I've changed my mind". |
So it's very simple. If you don't like the french laws, or the French, then go and ski somewhere else. Try Scotland where they like the English.
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You know it makes sense.
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Piccadilly, Simples go to A u s t r i a no ban on hosting there!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| emwmarine wrote: |
So it's very simple. If you don't like the french laws, or the French, then go and ski somewhere else. Try Scotland where they like the English. |
Don't try the English snowdomes in any case where they take a very dim view of anyone giving a few tips to their mates, according to Snowheads.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| Try Scotland where they like the English. |
ROTFPMSL . . . 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Boredsurfing, ski hosting has always taken place under local guidelines, I'm sure Austria has its own 'protectionist' attitudes. I came across this blog a few weeks ago by Adam Ruck, a ski/travel journalist I had contact with a couple of years ago. http://www.france2wheels.com/thoughts-on-french-ski-hosting/ .
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Masque wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
| Try Scotland where they like the English. |
ROTFPMSL . . . |
It took me a while but I think it's the only funny thing i've come up with this year.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| Piccadilly, Simples go to A u s t r i a no ban on hosting there! |
As I understand it, it's restricted to two days in St Anton, the only Austrian resort MW go to.
Plus I like France, I can't not go to Val d'Isere 
I suppose if MW stop doing hosting, I really will have to go elsewhere.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Piccadilly, flicking through a couple of TO websites there doesn't seem to be that much guiding going on in Austria.
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Do you think the TO's will be too mean to pay for properly qualified ski hosts?
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| Do you think the TO's will be too mean to pay for properly qualified ski hosts? |
Yes, but that doesn't mean a private service could be provided for any TO to contract out singly or jointly.
edit. If the TOs aren't paying ski hosts then there may even be a cost benefit for them to outsource.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
flicking through a couple of TO websites there doesn't seem to be that much guiding going on in Austria.
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like there aren't many catered chalets? Maybe France is actually less difficult to break into than some places.
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What will be the position of the Ski Club leaders now?
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FAQ
