Groomed Pistes Producing Bad Skiers

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

rob@rar, the thread title is a bit tongue in cheek, and of course a pistse can do nothing but be a piste, perhaps the word in the thread title 'Producing' should be replaced with 'Contributing to'. I know that end of day chopped up pistes have a tendancy to slow down the 'kiss me quick mob' but well groomed pistes has a tendancy to speed them up though, so maybe a little less grooming might be a good thing??

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I'm sure the advent of the latest technology has helped create or produce skiers who believe they are better than they perhaps are (indeed someone posted here recently who suggested that after 3 weeks skiing they were a confident intermediate).

Lack of understanding or acknowledgement of the skiers code may also be a factor.

Lack of fitness preparation may well also be a factor.

Increased up lift leading to busier pistes may be the answer.

Or poorly fitted boots or incorrectly set DINS

Or a host of other reasons, many or all of which may contribute to the statement made by the Austrian doctors.

I am not sure that groomed pistes are really to blame for producing bad skiers

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good chit chat though Very Happy

whatever view we all have snowHead

After all it is free

vetski, I'll get my cold, dead hand warmed up to throw my hat into the ring Wink

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skisimon, start a thread 'off piste skiers are better than on piste skiers' and I am sure you can disagree about something there, not too sure which side of the fence/piste either of you would be on though Laughing

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skisimon, plenty of time for you to change your mind about the Eurotest...

Wink

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rob@rar,

I have long thought that it would be a good idea for some resorts to put up a basic lift to a peak..and then just set out a few poles as an emergency guide on how to get down. probably only run it in good vis...but make these things intros to all terrain skiing.

That way, certain people wouldn't go near it...and it might save on maintenance costs/fuel bills as well.

I always think the Grand Montet should not be pisted or Mont Vallon, for example... but then they are probably too big a hill to have a total free-for all down it..

Also, I think too many resorts need so many people to pay for their operations... the hoteliers want more beds, the lift companies want more skers to pay for their infrastructure and all it does if put more people on the hill and the same time..which will result in more accidents, most probably.

I am most impressed by certain resorts ( well, two, that I know of ) adopting a no more new-builds strategy, "we like it just the way it is..we make enough money etc etc..." but it is pretty hard to resist developers.

FWIW, difficult terrain does slow people down, so I'd be thinking that might be a good premise to start with, IMV

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

larry duff, It often breeds a belief that they are better skiers than they actually are, and consequently someone else if often hurt. FWIW the idea that the person with the biggest grin on their face is the best/happiest skier is rubbish IMO - Many of these yoof louts have huge grins on their faces once they've terrorised all in their path. Shocked

A snowHead

So how do you make ski school "cool"?

I have two friends, one early 20s, one late 30s. Both took lessons when on school trips but then didn't ski for years. We went to Cas together. Both showed they can get down a slope, but I was seriously concerned at their excess of confidence & speed and lack of real control. I suggested a lesson or three might be worthwhile, but was met with the response that lessons are expensive and too much like being back at school; they didn't really fancy being told what to do all the time and they'd rather just "have fun". Don't get me wrong, these are not louts who don't care about others - on the contrary. However they really didn't seem to appreciate the potential dangers, even telling me to stop worrying & to "lighten up" a bit!

We have discussed this subsequently and they have agreed now that some instruction wouldn't necessarily be boring, and might even enhance the fun.

If folks like this perceive lessons as being "back at school" and "no fun"??? I found my group lessons to be great fun - the camaraderie of the the group was superb and we had a lot of laughs with the seriousness while we learned.

A snowHead

I love taking lessons - they are fun.

Some people just hear either lesson or ski school and close their minds.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Butterfly, what is their definition of fun, and what do they think they will be doing in ski school which is different from that? For me skiing is fun. Period. I find that being in lessons is normally more fun because it stretches me. I'll ski faster, or steeper, or with more precision, or doing new things, or changing bad habits. All this when I'm getting to know new people in my class and maybe skiing with an instructor who I've known for a few years and we can share a joke together. What can be more fun than that?

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rob@rar,

I like the personal responsibilty angle though. If they want to make a mistake, then it might be quite a big one.

I think the biggest problem with a lot of resorts is people going too fast...... just bombing everything, and yes, I was one of those. How do you teach these people about consequences...? I don't favour heavy policing and accidents do happen in an active sport, but.... it is a difficult problem.

I tend to look farther afield but we know the problems there. Now if we introduce longer skis and make skiing harder, then that might slow the process down a bit..!!! Laughing

It took me 10 years to do a route that was far away from safety...in my eyes... nowadays, people seem to do these things much earlier in the whole scheme of things... And I thought I was then more sensible, having seen a few things etc etc.. for paying my dues...!!!! But I may be wrong and it was long time ago..????? Laughing

I just don't know.... I just get away as far as possible as soon as I can

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It doesn't help when parents don't invest in ski school/instruction for their kids. We all know that decent lessons cost money but we just factor this into the holiday as a 'must have'. Our two have reached a very good standard - ok they are still only 13 & 9, but we hope that our investment will help enhance their enjoyment and above all, their safety and that of others.

We were involved in a dispute on the piste recently which is still playing on my mind. We witnessed a father take a boy of about 9 to the start of a red run (challlenging, and chopped up that day). We watched for a few minutes while having a choc break and were startled to see that the boy could barely snowplough turn and was becoming hysterical with his father yelling at him.
Despite what was happening we decided that we would/could not say anything. But only a few minutes later as we moved off, the poor child was screaming for his mother (who had skiied on down to the bottom with the rest of the large group, one of whom had a two year old between his legs so you see the type) and rightly or wrongly we went over to offer help. Difficult to say here what the situation was like, heartbreaking and made us very angry.
Of course our offer was not taken well and soon a heated arguement began. When we ourselves reached the bottom, we could hear the child screaming still only part way down. The family waiting there were laughing.

We reflected a lot on this and while there is no doubt that our intervention did not help at the time (apart from perhaps showing some solidarity for the boy) hopefully there is a slim chance that the **** of a dad will have relected on his own behaviour.

It's not the first time I have seen people pushed beyond their limits and it certainly won't be the last I'm sure. This was a particularly horrible incident, in which we felt compelled to intervene. We were pretty powerless on our own and the slope was very quiet, I just wish that the piste patrol had been around, they perhaps could have intervened.

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After all it is free

Lou, I sat next to a kid of about 7-9 in a full face helmet with her dad on a chair. He was seriously knocking her for her 180s by saying that she wasn't really doing a 180 and that she needed to do this and that to claim a 180. At the time I thought he was a complete idiot.

The next day I saw them absolutely ripping a steep exposed powder pitch obviously having the time of their lives. She was more than capable and visibly loving it and probably well on the way to being a top class skier.

So I am very reluctant to always take things at face value. Your guy probably was just an idiot though wink

Maybe some solution to this might be seen in the glories of Scotland where skier numbers are way down on the heady eighties. Lifts haven't changed (sometimes since the sixties) so the pistes are empty, pisting is limited - to allow the mountain to shine through and the weather & snow cover are currently excellent! Now that the numbers are down - so are the lift queues.

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A couple of thoughts first is that I don't think that skiing standards have fallen from observation I would say that there are more goodish skiers on the mountian than ever. I do think that grooming, modern snow making, management and possibly equipment have made skiing easier though. I have just returned from Zermatt which I last went to about 15 years ago. All marked pistes were groomed with no moguls whatsoever left to grow on pistes. This meant that on the fewblack runs that had not been deemed ski routes are now a lot more crowed than they were with near beginner skiers skiing faster than ever would have been the case. Previously virtually every black run and the majority of red runs would have been allowed to grow moguls. The other factor that has happened is that with the determination to keep runs open with snow making there are in most resorts runs that are relatively narrow with reasonable snow but bare at the edges so skiers tend to ski much faster through narrow passages whereas formally skiers would have to pick there way slowly through the snow that existed with frequent trips of the side of the piste to find better snow.
As the commentary comes from Austria I doubt that the much derided Brit holiday skier is a cause of the rise in injuries as British skiers have tended to desert Austria for France over the last fifteen years or so.

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fatbob, believe me, have seen some idiots, this was a hideous situation. First time in my life (professional included, am a nurse) that I have considered seeking outside help. I fully admit that because of the unusual setting ie mountain, and the fact that although I speak some French I would have been out of my depth in this instance, I let it go.

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uktrailmonster, I'm sure you are right in saying they 'can' be. And on my first two trips to Austria this year (Maria Alm and Ischgl) I was expecting to find the pistes full of out-of-control drunks lairing it down the hill and causing mayhem.

In fact (and I admit two weeks is a small sample) it was quite the opposite. I saw fewer examples of inconsiderate or dangerous skiing than in any other weeks I've had (apart from a week at Heavenly where everyone was very polite, considerate, and American Very Happy

).

Lift queues, such as there were, were well behaved, no jostling, and on the pistes even at 'busy' times (and this was over Easter), just about everyone was skiing under full control. IMHO the standard of skiing was generally higher than that which I've observed in France and Switzerland, even if the Austrians do like to have their ankles bolted together Toofy Grin

.

Of course once you come off the hill, there is definitely a more 'lively' apres scene (in Ischgl anyway), but this did not seem to spill onto the slopes, and was all good natured high spirits. Maybe they put something in the beer*?

*probably Jagermeister Laughing

You know it makes sense.

rob@rar, Lou, Pisteurs have no power and idiots have no respect for anyone. In France no-one can legally take the lift pass away from anyone as I understand it due to a legal precedent set in Val D when this was challenged in the courts and found to be illegal. My local pisteurs tell me that idiots cut them up when they are descending with a stretcher!

Actually, having thought it was dodgy here, I saw more dangerous skiing in Wengen in one week of very limited travel than I do here.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

easiski, that's a shame. I've not seen any collisions this season and not many cases of really bad skiing, although I did see some idiot ski between sets of crossed skis protecting an accident. I've never seen such angry pisteurs!

A snowHead

easiski, Agreed, I thought the standard of skiing and courtesy at Wengen was poor. It is the ONLY time I've ever been motivated to chase after an idiot on the piste. I saw several incidents, and Mrs Axs was VERY lucky not to have been seriously hurt by one young out of control snowboarder.

I have to add that having visited Wengen twice this year, I think the place is trading on past glories. Not a great ski-space, poor piste maintenance, slow uplift, and overpriced (even by Alpine standards). There are IMHO much better places to go.

A U S T R I A for one! Toofy Grin

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Axsman and uktrailmonster, I've seen a fair few drunken skiers in Austria (including Ischgl - Paznauner Taja and below!), but in my experience they've rarely been Austrian. Definitely not always british either though. Very often from elsewhere in Europe, Holland and Germany spring to mind. I think the combo of a poor skier, peer pressure, and plus alcohol is probably worse than a great skier plus alcohol.

Agree though that courtesy in lift queues etc. is usually very good.

D

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I was hit by an Austrian skier this year who was showing off to his girlfriend - he was a v competent skier trying to go as fast as poss on a ski run in order to get air.

I have read through all the posts here and there are some very interesting arguments. Alot of peoples attitude to lessons is wrong, I am sure that if they learnt more about skiing/boarding and correct technique they would enjoy their snowsport more.
A big part of the problem is lack of respect for both other skiers/boarders on the slope and FIS rules. I do not think that groomed pistes do produce bad skiing, its the skiers themselves who have so little ambition to improve the manner and style of their skiing/boarding, its more than getting from a to b as fast as poss.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

So in this thread we pontificate about the groomers encouraging reckless behaviour, in another we wax lyrical about how the advancement of technology allows an accelerated learning curve, allowing 'poor' skiers to advance beyond their means and venture off piste when they probably shouldn't......

Any suggestions as to where people should be able to ski?

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Guvnor, There should be a simple test. If you ski (or board) like an out of control wazzack you should be confined to the Tamworth Snowdome . Sorted. Twisted Evil

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Guvnor, responsibly anywhere. Unfortunately, the lack of responsibility ("he was going too fast"/"he was going too slow"/"she stopped where she shouldn't"/"she didn't look where she was going", etc) and pushing the blame onto someone else appears to be what causes the problem.
If the person cannot follow, understand and obey the responsibility code, they shouldn't be on the slopes.

After all it is free

Wear The Fox Hat, I concur wholeheartedly - but have noticed a worrying trend for posters on here to point the finger of blame, suggesting that all snowHead

's have some sort of devine ability, and demand special rights as a result.

Let he who is without sin and all that.... Twisted Evil

back to topic Smile

I think groomed runs produce great off-piste and all-round skiers.

Of course the people skiing the groomed runs need to want to ski off-piste and they need to switch from off to on and back. If all they learn or aspire to is speed or pure carved turns then they aren't going very far off-piste are they?

When you're learning something; pivot slips, turn initiation, edge control, fore-aft balance, letting your legs release in the top half of a turn etc. it is good to reduce the number of unknowns and go to a nice predictable piste (pisted or bumped) where you can try some movements and let your body learn to understand and trust them. Once you have begun this process you can take it off-piste and try to replicate it.

I think the problem is that if you just ski on-piste without working on technique then you become better and better at going faster and faster (note I didn't say "at skiing"); you also learn (through exposure) how to deal with on-piste hazards which may eventually equip you to deal with (again, not "ski") off-piste conditions.

I recently (OK, yes, at the ESA in the US) had a lot of discussion that I'll paraphrase as "braking isn't turning" - and I think that people who brake when they think they're turning aren't skiing very well at all. I have also come to suspect that most 'groomed piste' self-taught skiers brake far more than they realise.

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For what its worth I dont think you can zoom in only on Brit louts abroad. Where we were this year in Les Collons in Switzerland the worst behavior I saw was from German speaking youths who showed no respect for anyone else on the mountain. I was trying to get my 5YO down a blue track to a chair with loads of others around and saw them cut up a mum and daughter about my boys age just in front of us.

Previously we have spent a lot of time skiing in France and the most obnoxious skiers I have come accross has been the French team Famille with Dad leading not giving a damn about anyone else be it on the slope, in the que or in the resto. This is not all French skiers but then not all Brit skiers are lager louts either. Best on piste behaviour I have come accross has been in Fernie, Big White and the Banff resorts.

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Groomed Pistes Producing Bad Skiers

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