 Poster: A snowHead
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Although I find thirty06's post rather tongue-in-cheek and funny, I also find it a bit patronising and sanctimonious. So what if holiday skiers wave their arms about, swing their shoulders or whatever other technique/style faux pas? As long as they are skiing in a manner that doesn't put them or anyone else in danger, I don't see any issues at all with a perceived lack of style. They're on holiday for heavens sake, they're not aspiring to the next Winter Olympics (bit late for this one!).
To me, the only issue is people putting themselves in unnecessary danger, and that applies to off-piste skiers as much as any piste intermediate.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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But it's soooooo ugly, soooo ugly!
It's like fat people in Union Jack shorts and sunblock going round supermarkets. No, it's not actually dangerous, but have pity.
Skiing gives you all the advantages in terms of aesthetics, head to toe cover, loose clothing to disguise unflattering outlines. All you have to do to look good is to do it properly.
Do it right and you could be taken for a younger Bo Derrick, stiffen the lower limbs and waggle your shouldrs and suddenly you're Norah Batty.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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It comes down to fundamentals....these are transferable and therefore an "athlete" can improve in a sport quicker than a "non athlete" that needs to learn the fundamentals I think! Love the table though, made me chuckle!!!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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FAF, love it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I cant think of any other sport where the participants rate their proficiency. I like to mountain bike - but I describe it in terms of the terrain I like rather than how able I am. I also cant think of any other sport where so many take lessons. So I think the classifications relate to the tuition more than anything else.
So I like fast wide pistes where I can carve big fast turns - am I an intermediate skier?
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| Quote: |
To me, the only issue is people putting themselves in unnecessary danger, and that applies to off-piste skiers as much as any piste intermediate.
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As long as it's only themselves they're putting in danger, surely it's their choice and nothing to do with anyone else?
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clarky999, not really. People putting themselves in danger may have an accident. And that accident may result in needing rescue, emergency help, medical treatment, insurance claims, time off work, etc. not to mention the possibility of involving someone else. Suddenly it's not just their business any more. It's only nothing to do with anyone else if they pull it off without incident.
I have a very live and let live approach to skiing. I understand totally why some people want to constantly push boundaries, venture to less-explored territory, take lots of lessons to hone technique, etc. But at the same time there are people like me that are happy with their lack of style and technique and view their annual ski trip as a holiday where they have fun, pure and simple.
If thirty06 thinks I'm ugly, hey, I'm a big girl, I can handle it!  Maybe he or she is not such a looker either.
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thirty06, spot on. And in skiing form often does follow function. The people who look stiff and like they have been hijacked by a pair of planks are often about to fall. Skiing is surely more transcendent than that. Closer to dancing than running?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
needing rescue, emergency help, medical treatment, insurance claims,
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They're all jobs people willingly do though. I have the greatest respect for mountain rescue etc, but they chose to risk themselves helping people, they don't have to do it.. Insurance companies willingly take people's money to provide backup if things goo wrong. You could make an extreme example that to ski a blue run is an unneccesary danger to yourself. Do you think downhill racing should be stopped, as that is certianly 'unneccessary' risk.
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clarky999, that wasn't the point I was making at all. All skiing carries some level of risk, but people who ski in a deliberately dangerous manner or location obviously increase this risk. I was just pointing out that doing so might not just be their own business, it might involve others too.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| [Closer to dancing than running? |
Too often I feel like I'm wrestling rather than skiing, but when I'm doing it well it does feel like I'm dancing with the terrain.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Queen boedicia
It's unlikely that you're ugly, as Galton determined that Notts had the highest percentage of beautiful women in England. I should point out that I myself look how Joaquin Cortes would look if he were a bit more macho and worked out regularly.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2051/buddyicons/20986662@N07.jpg?1213998205#20986662@N07
Stoatsbrother
Yes, as an engineer said about motorcycle design, "If it is right, it looks right". For most skiing there is no measure of sucess, in the mens' downhill you could ski down sideways with a checked jersey and your hat on backwards so long as your time was best; for other events there are stlye points. Dancing is definitely a good comparison, anyone can have a go, but some might benefit from a bit of polish.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Mon 15-02-10 23:48; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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And anyway, intermediate between what ? what are the limits ?
Okay, I'll accept that we know the lower limit, but what of the upper ?
Suppose you practiced and practiced and did loads of inner game training and cross training and excelled at every discipline so that you an extension for your trophy cabinets and another for your medals and you skied every vertical ,ile in the world with such panache that you were decalred a sort of cross between Franz Klammer, Snowhoe Johnson, Ali Ross and Frank4Short. What then ? Sure you'd be the upper limit for ski ability measurement, but would you carry on or just go "Oh well, I guess that's about it" and take up gardening ?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| If a skier describes themself to me as "intermediate" or "advanced" I always ignore the title and ask them to describe what they can and can't do, what they enjoy the most, what sort of terrain they make the best turns on, etc. |
When I was booking my trip a few months ago, I told the rep what I could and couldn't do so that I could book into the right lesson level - I want to enjoy my trip and get better off the back of it. Basically, I was told if I was beyond snowploughs, I was an intermediate  I'm still slightly nervous about that as an idea but am assured that since there's such a large group going, it should be relatively easy to switch level if I need to.
I suspect one of the reasons for people claiming to be intermediates rather than beginners is that they fear a week of lessons on the nursery slopes, relearning snowploughs. And while snowHeads have a very clear idea of an 'advanced or expert' skier, a lot of those on the mountain would class anyone coming down a red well, as being advanced. In which case, describing themselves as intermediates, makes sense (to them at least)
I'll throw in something that will make you all shudder more...
Here's a ski school which offers courses for 'advanced' skiers which includes just getting to grips with reds. Although to give them some credit, they do at least recognise a level beyond advanced. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Applespider wrote: |
I suspect one of the reasons for people claiming to be intermediates rather than beginners is that they fear a week of lessons on the nursery slopes, relearning snowploughs. |
This goes both ways though, I've rolled up to ski school and described myself as intermediate only to be popped in a group with the above.  This is as much my fault though (as ski school's*) because I need to speak up and demand a change of group!
I like the grading system suggested on this thread, conversely I think the Canadian 6-point one difficult. I don't think there's enough spread at the upper end.
*Ski schools seem reluctant to break up groups - keeping those of lower ability happy at the expense of others.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This splits up the novice and intermediate into "cautious" and "confident" - seems a sensible approach. It's American so I assume green = European blue and blue=European red. By this table I'd be a cautious intermediate.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Butterfly, That's the Panorama ski school isn't it?
We marked ourselves as level 4 on that scale based on our first trip - they made sure we weren't fibbing too!
It seems intermediate covers a wide spectrum of abilities!
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Butterfly, that scale would make me a 'confident intermediate' I think. No matter what scale I look at, I'm always an intermediate.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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queen bodecia,
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No matter what scale I look at, I'm always an intermediate
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Me too, wherever the word is used. It's notable that Inspired to Ski, with whom I've now done two courses, don't use the word at all, just numbers/descriptors. Perhaps that's the way forward, and then there wouldn't be all this confusion and argument - ban the word altogether!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| Quote: |
needing rescue, emergency help, medical treatment, insurance claims,
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They're all jobs people willingly do though. I have the greatest respect for mountain rescue etc, but they chose to risk themselves helping people, they don't have to do it. |
That is arrogant, ignorant nonsense. Presumably French piste patrol are paid for it. But you lose yourself in the Cairngorms in the winter, then http://www.cmrt.org.uk/ will come to rescue you. They are volunteers, they are helping their fellow men out of the good of their hearts - no doubt also because they can, because they enjoy the challenge, but the fact remains they are volunteers.
A bit like saying that the army know what they're going into so they don't deserve sympathy when they die or lose a leg.
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James the Last, that's a bizarre statement to make. CMRT do it because they want to. They know the risks and choose to do it anyway. Ditto the people serving in our armed forces, casualty nurses, police officers, firemen.
clarky999 makes a valid point.
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CMRT do it because they want to. They know the risks and choose to do it anyway.
Yes. But they do not WANT to kill themselves. And those who head ill-equipped up into the hills are risking the lives of the mountain rescue. It is not acceptable for us to sit here and say "Well we can risk our lives by being stupid, and if it kills the mountain rescue people too, well they knew the risks and they're being paid anyway." It is acceptable to say "I know what I am doing, I am qualified for what I want to do and I have the right equipment. poo-poo sometimes happens. It has just happened to me and I need rescuing, but I can feel certain that I was unlucky, not negligent and therefore have not needlessly* risked somebody's life."
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*I think we can all accept that whilst we don't need to go into the mountains, it does not constitute "needless" activity.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I replied on the other thread which DB started too, just found this one so I'll comment here now.
You have completely missed my point. I didn't mean idiots headin into the hills with no knowledge, skill or experience and consequently getting into trouble.
Someone mentioned should we be allowed to put ourselves in unneccessary danger. Skiing offpiste at all is unneccessary danger.
Yet I am capable and confident skiing offpiste, and know the risks. If I decide the risks on any given day or slope TO MYSELF are acceptable (ie I don't think this slope will slide or whatever) then I think I have the right to risk myself - ie I am taking a calculated risk. I can do this relatively safely do to my knowledge, skill, experience and equipment. If it is only myself that I risk, I defy anyone who tells me not to do it.
To again clarify it, I would never do something in the expectation that I might rely on someone else to save me.
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As an ex emergency service worker (Fireman) I think there is a distinction to be made.
hyweljenkins, groups the emergency and armed services together with mountain rescue and says 'they know the risks and chose to do it anyway'. This is of course true.
However as a fireman I felt my role was to protect life and property when it was threatened. Most of the time the threat came from unforeseen, or difficult to avoid circumstances, a car accident, a fire, the rescue of tibbles from a tree.
On those occasions when some daft bugger had got their toe stuck up a bath tap, or head trapped behind railings, or had set fire to his slippers while pissed, there was a generally accepted feeling among my comrades of 'bloody idiot!' toward the affected party.
If some numpty gets stuck halfway up a mountain becaue he's gone up totally unprepared for the (known) dangers he might face I would feel a little miffed that my services were called on to go get him, but this is the sort of thing that mountain rescue teams face all the time. Just because they exist doesn't absolve the rest of us from behaving sensibly and taking all necessary precautions.
Emergency services exist to provide a safety net to the general public. Shit does indeed happen and they are here to help when it does. However some members of the general public put themselves at more risk than others.
As James the Last, says, the rescue teams are not looking to get killed, They are willing to risk their lives to save others. Such an attitude is rare, and such rescue teams are general underfunded and under resourced. It is a shame that their resources are stretched by people who through ignorance or stupidity put themselves in the path of danger.
BTW I'm not having a go at clarky999, here. He clearly is capable of weighing the risks and making an informed decision. It's the blanket 'well they chose to do the job so it's their lookout' attitude to the emergency services that I am deriding.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Axsman,
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BTW I'm not having a go at clarky999, here. He clearly is capable of weighing the risks and making an informed decision. It's the blanket 'well they chose to do the job so it's their lookout' attitude to the emergency services that I am deriding.
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Well put, I didn't intend any of my posts to convey that, maybe they were a little ambiguous though.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Last weekend a friend of ours suggested that anyone who needs to ask what colour a run is is an intermediate skier. I like that.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Axsman, So where is the person that asks before - skis down it and then doesn't believe what they were told to begin with? 
I am normally this:
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Someone who asks first is probably a nervous intermediate,
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But did get really close to this
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someone who skis a run and then asks what it was
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On a couple of occasions this year. I like to think that I'm a controlled intermediate, but not a high level one
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Poster: A snowHead
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Megamum, I don't ask beforehand, because you can't trust the bu99ers not to lie! I check the piste map. If it's anything darker than red I let the kids go first!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Someone who's not a beginner or advanced 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Colin B wrote: |
| Someone who's not a beginner or advanced |
Exactly , will try most pistes, knows their own limits but also is in more control than a beginner but has not got that flowing hip/knee control at speed.
Knowing where you can improve and where you are wasting effort in turns is a good sign.
I love skiing but realise I am not brilliant, but will keep trying to keep up with the naturals.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Axsman wrote: |
| ...someone who doesn't ask is probably either nuts, or a ski god, beyond such mundane concerns. |
As I say, if you have to ask...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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You're intermediate til your first WC or FWT start or video part.
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Anyone not on Telemark....niffy said 
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
Although I find thirty06's post rather tongue-in-cheek and funny, I also find it a bit patronising and sanctimonious. So what if holiday skiers wave their arms about, swing their shoulders or whatever other technique/style faux pas? As long as they are skiing in a manner that doesn't put them or anyone else in danger, I don't see any issues at all with a perceived lack of style. They're on holiday for heavens sake, they're not aspiring to the next Winter Olympics (bit late for this one!).
To me, the only issue is people putting themselves in unnecessary danger, and that applies to off-piste skiers as much as any piste intermediate. |
Very true!
Much as we'd all like to ski like Didier Cuche/Lindsey Vonn, we just try to do our best and have fun.
I know my limits - and if more people knew theirs, the slopes would be a lot safer!
I've been skiing for nearly 25 years but I'm still an 'intermediate' with lots of faults, and I still have lessons sometimes.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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They are all relative terms.
Beginner - Someone who needs help to get down a piste
Intermediate - Someone who can get down a piste on their own
Advanced - Someone who can help beginners and get down a piste.
Expert - Someone who doesent need a piste in the first place.
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Intermediate, ski all pistes. Advanced, ski all terrain. Expert, ski all terrain like a boss, race, huck cliffs, etc.
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FAQ
