 Poster: A snowHead
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Stressed Mick, I didn't say there was a difference in cost to the operator on different weeks. I said that during unpopular weeks they sell at much smaller margins or none at all.
On top of that, it is standard practice in any business to charge what the market will stand. Can't see any reason why half-term skiers deserve some kind of special protection.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Stressed Mick, In future try this lot www.otp.co.uk . They make no surcharge for half term and I've used them 3 times so far with excellent service. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Lizzard, I agree. Stressed Mick, I will have to confess to you here that I own a property in the French Alps which I rent out and charge extra for during February, particularly half-term. The most expensive weeks are always the first to go, which is why we charge more. Over the season we require a certain level of income to cover our expenses. We will sometimes be left with weeks in early or late season, despite their reasonable cost, simply because no-one wants to ski then. This means we must unfortunately charge more for the weeks we can guarantee will be booked up. During any weeks the property is empty, it still needs to be heated, and in ther case of tour ops, the staff need to be paid.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Stressed Mick, I agree with Lizzard, the half-term price is the economic rate. Everything else outside peak weeks is just scrambling for custom.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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The main reason I booked with that company is that they have one price - OK it's a take it or leave it but still no silly ups and downs for the date.
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Because they only offer peak season, perhaps?  And not quite true either - if you want ski school, full area pass or creche you pay extra. I notice that you may also have to pay for hold baggage.
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If they can do it why can't everyone else
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The company in question runs trips on two weeks of the year, isn't employing staff for the season, and presumably has those hotel rooms on option and can ditch them if they don't sell. A situation not really comparable with that of the majority of TOs.
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| Stressed Mick wrote: |
Of course it is.
I must have paid many thousands of pounds over the years for my family to go skiing during school holidays.
The flights cost the same - from the airline to the ski tour operators (confirmed by BA groups Dept)
The lift passes cost the same - halft term week as they do the week befor (http://www.ski.it/upload/files/FFM_LIST_ING_WEB.pdf)
The ski hire cost the same - halft term week as they do the week befor (http://www.rosattisport.it/?hl=listino_it)
The coach transfers cost the same
etc
etc
etc
It's a scam - charge more when people have no choice - well one choice to go or not |
You have another choice, ditch the TO and do your own. OK you still may/will be hit with some accommodation markup but probably less than the increase from the TO, and then everything else you know you are sorting yourself, so you can negoritate the costs involved and choose whether to take it or not. Sorting out lift passes yourself is not hard (and the couple of times I've been with a TO I've chosen to do that myself anyway (long story)), sorting out kit hire yourself is the same 'faff' as doing it through the TO in terms of trying on kit etc.
Personally I would ski Easter break rather than half-term in your shoes, as some of my best skiing has been in late March / early april, and beacause you don't have 3/4 of surrey decamping to the slopes they can be a little less busy...
Last edited by After all it is free  on Mon 20-10-08 13:34; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I am really carefull - about my families money so I called 2 of the hotels 1st (I know cynical) that company books the whole hotel (5 large hotels)
But I didn't notice that about the baggage charge - thanks I will send them an email (hope they have not up'ed the price after my advert for them Grrrrrr
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But overall holiday operators are not exactly making a killing. The only reason you want your ATOL bonding is because of the rational fear that your operator will go out of business!
As Lizzard points out, filling the beds at quiet times means selling the holidays very, very, cheap. What's the alternative? Having all weeks exactly the same price, so you get the same overall income at the end of the season? Then having a lottery to decide which of the thousands of potential customers will get lucky at half term? Certainly "supply and demand" can be very annoying when one's a buyer in a seller's market but there probably isn't a fairer way of doing it. It really isn't a big deal to DIY your own holiday - maybe something to think about next year. But also, don't go in February half term, it's a mug's game. Easter is better all round.
If you don't like under occupancy fees, don't do self catering with one of the big tour operators. Operators like Erna Low charge "per apartment" and if you rent direct from an owner (which is becoming easier and easier with the internet) you just pay for the apartment. Given that the operators presumably add the cost of the apartment to X airfares, in working out their costings, it doesn't seem reasonable to expect to get the same basic price with only x/2 airfares.
Being determined to travel at half term, and with a TO, makes you a sitting duck. Personally, I would never do it. It's perfectly rational for them to charge what the market will bear, but also rational for customers to decide not to pay those high costs. If you have a job which gives you no choice, it's much better either to go at Easter or to go DIY.
I have friends who went to Folgarida many years ago. They enjoyed it very much - they were beginners, though. I don't know how good the intermediate skiing is. The Italian "passegiata" is certainly a good spectator sport; I've never seen so many mink coats in my life as were strutting their stuff in Cortina around 5 pm. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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bertie bassett, Easter is definitely the best bet for people tied to the school holiday pattern.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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OK - 3 years ago we had the best holiday ever in a twon called Val der Isser in France - we even had a english teacher in the school.
We went with Crystal Skiing to a really nice hotel.
Could we do the same for less if we did everything like flights hotel lift pass ski hire.
Is there a web site that tells you how to do it. Do we need to speak french, etc
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Stressed Mick, my partner is tied to school holidays, so I understand too well the frustration of paying almost double what you could be paying just a few weeks earlier in the season. I found that booking a DIY holiday (well in advance) gave much better value for money compared to booking with a tour operator. Yes, it is extra hassle and the best prices were for self-catering which might not be everyone's idea of a holiday, but it did mean it was slightly easier to justify a second ski trip at either Christmas or Easter so DIY was the best option for us.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Stressed Mick wrote: |
| Val der Isser |
Val d'Isere?
Booking DIY is very easy in this internet age, especially with the advice that you can get from a website like snowHeads 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Can't see why you need advice from a place like that. It's easy to book flights and car hire/scheduled coach transfers/private taxi transfer. You can ask for accommodation recommendations on snowHeads (or an increasing number of snowHeads have accommodation the rent, including me). Book your ski school requirements, if needed. All this can be done via the internet, usually without needing any foreign language. Buy your ski passes when you get to the resort, then enjoy! Simple. If you are nervous about not having the services of a resort rep perhaps book your first DIY holiday to a resort you know. Then when you get the hang of it you can book wherever you want.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If you go DIY and are prepared to put in a bit of time for research (I know Stressed Mick you've also spent a ridiculous amount of time on Google - I spent about 2 months researching this year's half term trip so I can sympathise) you can avoid paying the stupid tour operator surcharges. Total cost per person* is looking at about £530pp plus a bit of petrol and food/booze (self catering, so will probably cook for ourselves every night to keep costs down). This is pretty much the same as last year, and I don't think it's massively more expenditure than a non half term trip.
To be honest I reckon I could have done it cheaper, but I got bored of researching after a while.
The worst thing about DIY booking is that things like this happen: http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=980689
*flights, accomodation, transfers, equpiment hire, and lift pass. Some members of the group are probably booking lessons on top of that.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Stressed Mick, that's not an advice service, it's an excuse to sell a load of online advertising space!
It's called DIY because you have to do it all yourself. Pick resort, look at website, book hotel/apartment online. Look at airline/train sites, book travel. Look at websites for car hire/buses/trains, book whatever suits. Or drive all the way. It will help if you can at least read a minimal amount of the local language.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Ha Ha you lot have got me going
Oh dear - this will end in tears
Right then - next year (2010) I going to book my own holiday - I will come here and ask lots of questions about "everything". Hope you don't mind.
If this right, is that right, it is true that >>>>
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Stressed Mick, Surely you've had enough advice on here to book a DIY holiday already! I'm not sure that site's going to be great for doing a DIY ski holiday - it seems a bit more general. Basically to book a DIY ski holiday:
Choose a resort.
Decide whether you want to fly, take a train or self drive.
Book your flight/train ticket/ferry as early as possible to get the best rate.
Go to the resorts tourist office website and click on accommodation.
Email all the hotels/apartments you like the look of. Preferably in their native language but, to be honest, most will understand English.
Book the best one with availability.
If you've booked a flight or train, sort out a transfer to resort. Again, check the tourist office website or ask on here.
All you've got left now is ski pass, ski hire and lessons. Ski pass can usually be done online (again, from the tourist office website) but it's easy enough to just buy them when you get there. Ski hire can be done online but you might be better off asking somewhere like here about the best hire shops. Lessons, again, ask here for the best school and then book online.
I haven't actually booked a DIY holiday but I've certainly booked all the constituent parts. Eg. this year I booked a package deal with the SCGB but booked my own travel and am going out a day early so I needed to book extra accommodation and transfers, I always buy my own lift passes as you can usually squeeze in a half day or so extra skiing, I've always booked my own ski hire (well, other people's, I've got my own skis).
I'm very tempted to try and sort myself out a DIY trip for December given how easy it all is.
For your example of Val D'Isere, I'd have gone for:
Train from St. Pancras to Bourg Saint Maurice http://www.raileurope.co.uk/default.aspx?tabID=481
Transfer up to Val by bus http://www.valdisere.com/fr/sejour/acces/car.php?param=1&ssmenu=13#
Accommodation from tourist office website http://www.valdisere.com/fr/sejour/hebergement/hotels_residences_agences_loueurs_valdisere.php?cat=hotel3¶m=1&ssmenu=12
Lift pass from http://www.valdisere.com/fr/glisse/forfaits/forfaits_ski.php?param=2&ssmenu=23 (Except their web site's not working for online sales at the moment, grrr!)
Then ask on here about ski schools and equipment hire.
Simple and pretty much all from the tourist office website. Probably quicker than trawling through TO's deals.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Oh yeah, if you really can't be bothered to book it all yourself, give me your credit card and I'll do it for you for a tenner a person. 
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Stressed Mick, no problem. You'll get lots of answers and advice (some of it contradictory ). However, you will still find that at half term, things are more expensive and more crowded. I don't know when Easter will be in 2010 - I'm still thinking about 2009. But well worth thinking about. You don't need to drive all the way. It's worth thinking about renting an apartment for 2 weeks, then using a cheap airline to travel for 10 days, Tues/Thurs. (flights mid week are likely to cost less than half the weekend cost). You don't necessarily have to ski for longer, and pay a lot more for passes. You can buy a 6 or 7 day non-consecutive lift pass. It's quite nice to have a few days in hand, to rest, or sit out some horrible weather, or go snowshoeing, or just for a walk in the mountains. If you choose one of the better known resorts you'll have no problem finding people speaking enough English - it's their bread and butter. They all have excellent tourist offices, to help you both before and during a trip.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Stressed Mick wrote: |
OK - 3 years ago we had the best holiday ever in a twon called Val der Isser in France - we even had a english teacher in the school.
We went with Crystal Skiing to a really nice hotel.
Could we do the same for less if we did everything like flights hotel lift pass ski hire.
Is there a web site that tells you how to do it. Do we need to speak french, etc |
HI Mick
some good advice on previous posts.
I would suggest buying a copy of White Weekends by Tom Robbins. This book focuses on weekends but by definition a weekend trip is likely to DIY and therefore a lot of the challenges that apply for the weekender apply for the 'weeker' doing a diy trip (e.g. arranging transfers, finding accommodation) etc.
To give you a feel for the book then I've nicked this blurb from amazon
"In years gone by, skiing was a complicated, expensive business, and the only way of going about it was to book a package holiday. Today, things are looking up. With Easyjet, Ryanair and Eurostar constantly adding more routes at cheaper and cheaper prices, it's never been easier to take a short weekend break in Europe. But where exactly should you go if you want to ski or snowboard? Booking the flight is easy, but the rest is a nightmare - which resort should you choose, where will you stay, will the hotel accept short bookings, and how will you get from the airport/station into the mountains?In "White Weekends", Tom Robbins, deputy editor and skiing expert of the Observer, travels from one end of Europe to the other in a bid to discover the best and most beautiful resorts for independent weekend breaks. From powder, parties and budget to romantic, child-friendly and luxurious, there are chapters covering every type of weekend imaginable. Each chapter details Tom's experience in one magical destination and is backed up by 'The Knowledge' - practical information detailing how to get there, where to stay, where to ski, where to eat and where to party - and a 'Best of the Rest' section so you have a variety of resorts to choose from whatever sort of break you're after. Covering over 100 resorts in all, this fresh, funky and flawlessly illustrated book will be the perfect gift for anyone who appreciates the stunning beauty of the mountains and the perfect self-purchase for the millions of Britons addicted to the exhilaration of the slopes."
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I will come here and ask lots of questions about "everything". Hope you don't mind.
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I really can't imagine people on here minding being asked for their opinions or advice. I think your only problem will be too many, possibly contradictory, views.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Glad to see you have finally booked - have stayed in Madonna once and Folgarida twice and would still go back there as we had such great holidays there. There are two runs just for beginners in Folgarida, a snowboard park in Marilleva, loads of great and inexpensive bars and restaurants and it all links up really well. There is also a bus from Folgarida to Madonna if you have anyone who doesn't fancy the somewhat tricky reds there and back. Madonna is quite upmarket - women in fur coats with little dogs tucked under their arms (you know the sort of thing) but very friendly. Hope you enjoy the area as much as we did.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Thank you everyone - I will see you somewhere up a mountain sometime.
Oh yeah - got an e mail back from the tour operator - no they have not charged me a baggage charge for the flight
Thanks again
Got to go and do some work now
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Got to go and do some work now
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Too late - once you have started posting here, your work and your life come a veerrrryyy distant 2nd 3rd or whatever place.
Mrs Boris keeps telling me the kids are growing up
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You know it makes sense.
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Stressed Mick, that's the price of a 'free' market. I'd do the DIY thing. You'll still get cheapish flights to Munich (among other places, of course) then train, car or transfer to a convenient Austrian resort. That's what we've done for the last 4 years at half term to Kitzbuhel and St Anton (not true; we took the Bergland Express train to St Anton this year from Brussels). Much less than £1000 a head.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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When exactly is half term?
Do European countrys have different weeks for it or are they the same?
Dates please so i can go before or after it so i can avoid the crowds and daft prices?
Rob
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Poster: A snowHead
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cc_7up, UK Half Term is 14/2/09 next year. French holidays start 2nd week of Feb and go through to start of 2nd week of March. The busiest week is 14/2 however, as it's all of the Uk, some chunks of France, Belgium, Netherlands etc. Your best bet to avoid the crowds and price hikes is any time in January (inc 31/1 although the prices do start to creep up then) and any time after 7/3, and then Easter comes at the end of March/start of April so it starts again, although not as manically as Feb. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Charging the market rate is hardly a scam (ignoring under occupancy which regularly is). It's not so much the price going up at school holidays, it's the price going down at other times. BTW does anyone know if folgarida do easter, nothing on their site but they do seem very good value. No longer Streesed, where are you flying from, do they do regional flights?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Ghost Dog wrote: |
| where are you flying from, do they do regional flights? |
We are flying from Manchester. I think they do regional flights - but they are almost fully booked. They have booked the whole of 5 big hotels all in the town centre but I think they have just released the last few rooms they have. You can see what is there on the website.
I booked with them not because they are the cheapest - I found 2 other that seemed cheaper, in a town called Clavier which is in italy and another called meribell which is in france... I think that’s what they were called anyway. But all the time I was talking to them the cost kept going up so I didn't book.
I know that everyone on this forum has their own skis and boots but my family don’t as we only go once a year, so to me skis and boots are NOT an “optional” extra. Nor is a lift pass or transfers from the airport (speaking of scams ??). But I can see why some companies try and say they are. It makes the initial cost “seem” lower.
The best thing is (to me anyway) is that everyone else I called (I don't trust internet sites so I always call as well, I am maybe a little still not to sure about website booking) seemed to be trying too hard to sell me something. When you call that Folgarida company they just tell you the deal and then leave you to it.
O yes and another good thing when you call them you can acutely talk to a guy who is a ski instructor in that resort ski school in the winter (I know this as his picture is on the website ski school photo) and works in the UK when not there - so you get someone who acutely knows the resort and will tell you things you want to know (and is not on commission).
Give them I call (don't know the number sorry) and ask for the instructor guy and just see what’s on offer.
Ha Ha Do I get some commission for this advert and if you get there and it is rubbish please don’t send me nasty messages.
I am staying in the Hotel Derby if anyone wants to meet in the bar and tell me how good I looked. I did 3 black runs last year, but I was VERY unsure about if this was a place I wanted to be ?? at the time.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 28-10-08 13:16; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Skis, boots, transfers and lift passes are optional from the TO's perspective as in you can choose not to book them in advance.
No need to type in bold.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| paulio wrote: |
Skis, boots, transfers and lift passes are optional from the TO's perspective as in you can choose not to book them in advance.
No need to type in bold. |
I am sorry - I have edited my letter and taken off the bold section
Would it not be a better idea for holiday companies to give a "full" price and then say if you don't want something they will deduct this and give you a lower cost.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Stressed Mick wrote: |
| paulio wrote: |
Skis, boots, transfers and lift passes are optional from the TO's perspective as in you can choose not to book them in advance.
No need to type in bold. |
I am sorry - I have edited my letter and taken off the bold section
Would it not be a better idea for holiday companies to give a "full" price and then say if you don't want something they will deduct this and give you a lower cost. |
There are some companies which do this, but as they get a lump sum discount for buying it all up front, the deduction would not be the full value. For example if ski hire is £35 from the hire shop, and you have your own, your cost won't be reduced by £35, but by the amount THEY had to pay for it, perhaps with some admin charge added.
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| Stressed Mick wrote: |
| paulio wrote: |
Skis, boots, transfers and lift passes are optional from the TO's perspective as in you can choose not to book them in advance.
No need to type in bold. |
I am sorry - I have edited my letter and taken off the bold section
Would it not be a better idea for holiday companies to give a "full" price and then say if you don't want something they will deduct this and give you a lower cost. |
Not from their point of view, no, not at all.
"Prices starting from £789!" does read quite a bit better than "Prices as high as £4599!".
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Why is this such an issue anyway? You know that the basic price is for flight, transfer and accommodation. You also know which particular extras you personally need. Hardly rocket science to add it all up, is it?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Why is this such an issue anyway? You know that the basic price is for flight, transfer and accommodation. You also know which particular extras you personally need. Hardly rocket science to add it all up, is it? |
Absolutely, a 10 year old could do it.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Why is this such an issue anyway? You know that the basic price is for flight, transfer and accommodation. You also know which particular extras you personally need. Hardly rocket science to add it all up, is it? |
How do I know - If I go to Thomas Cook and book a holiday they don't tell me what each section costs. As an example, if I ask the staff in the shop how much the hotel costs they will not tell me
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FAQ
