 Poster: A snowHead
|
skimottaret, I don't think that the UKSS pathways intermingle, the L1 (old CI) is common but they split after that, the documents on the SSE website seem pretty clear to me. ASPC -> L2 PC, APC1 -> L3 PC and APC2 -> L4 PC. There is a description of the courses here.
I don't know how BASI L3 compares with APC2/New L4.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
Of the 6 racers on my BASI L1 course, the two from our club were doing it as backup for when our club is a bit down on coaches during the winter, so we've not actually needed to use it formally yet. The other 4 were from Norfolk, and they are all actively using it. When I turned up for practice before the All-England 3 of them were there actively coaching the wannabe race class, and at least one was heading off to 'Tux for his L2 the following week, and has a coaching job lined up for the winter. I'm intending to do L2 at some time, probably not this year thourgh, as I think I need a little more experience/practice first. I will use mine part time, but I don't want to let the "coaching" take over from the "being coached" role for a while yet.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
rjs, i looked at it a while ago and it has gotten a bit fuzzy. I guess i dont like the entry being an instructor qualification GrahamN, makes a good point though in that with the BASI ADC1 there is no prerequisite to do any instructor qualifications. if you are competent skier you can go straight to more of a race biased qualification if that is what you are after and can skip the central theme beginners stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
skimottaret, I can't make up my mind about this. I probably wouldn't have done APC1 if SSS had insisted that I had CI first but the teaching/coaching part of the course was minimal and I get a fair number of kids who still need to work on basic stuff even though they are quite good racers.
I'm coming around to thinking that requiring some instructing qualification is useful.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
rjs, agreed in principle, but I just think that the level that (at least what I see of) what CIs do is not it. I guess the moot point is whether you can be an effective teacher at the higher level without having an understanding of the lower level stuff? Or to put a slightly different slant on that, whether teaching basic stuff to basic-level skiers is the same as revisiting basic-level stuff in higher-level skiers (and hence whether time teaching raw beginners is vital to basic technical work for intermediate racers)?
I would tend to answer no and no.
The BASI/CSCF L1 coach course covered quite a lot on how to teach/coach, but virtually nothing on the "what", other than as part of the personal performance aspects. I would have had no objections to having more of the basic level "what" - even having to do a couple of days foundation/validation - but could see no point in spending >20 hours on shadowing getting raw beginners to snowplough, as that's of no interest to me. At our slope that would have meant probably 4 months with another session a week, and I'm already there 2-3 times/week at present.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
rjs, I use my BASI Coach L2 (or whatever it's called today!).
Agree with what you say that it's useful to have an instrucying background to teach the more basic skills to the racers, but I don't think the CI is it. I've seen some of these courses being run at our slope and the standard needed is so low I don't really feel they'd be able to teach our racers much - most of whom are much better than the CI level.
Our best coach (in terms of technical understanding and ability to convey this to the athletes) is undoubtedly the BASI ISTD we have, although admittedly he also has a racing background.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
beanie1,
| Quote: |
Agree with what you say that it's useful to have an instructing background to teach the more basic skills to the racers, but I don't think the CI is it. I've seen some of these courses being run at our slope and the standard needed is so low I don't really feel they'd be able to teach our racers much - most of whom are much better than the CI level.
|
Yes, I can see your point there. I have been under the impression that the BASI Level 1 instructors course was a higher standard required to pass than the CI course does, not just a smidgen higher but quite a lot higher? Based on what you've seen when the courses are run at your slope would you agree with this or not? That's what I thought from what I've heard but I haven't seen enough skiers from both systems to compare overall myself. The BASI L1 course is 5 days long as you know and the CI (now UKSS Level 1) is only 2 days plus an assessment day so the BASI L1 course is nearly double the time. The ASSI (now UKSS Level 2) is another 2 days plus a 1 day ASSI exam (AFAIK).
Again the BASI L2 is a 10 day course on snow which is a lot longer than the ASSI course is since it's only 3 days. I know a BASI L2 would be a considerably higher standard to pass than an ASSI and it's mountain based anyhow, but is a BASI Level 1 a smidgen higher than an ASSI as well or is the ASSI somewhere in the middle between our BASI Level 1 and Level 2? Based on course length alone then the BASI system is like double the length of the UKSS courses so it appears so me it seems to be the more thorough of the two systems. Am I missing something here? Is UKSS internationally recognised and could someone with an ASSI get a job as an instructor in say somewhere like Switzerland where you can teach on a mountain without necessarily having the BASI Level 2 qualification as other European countries require (except France of course) and get a job with a BASI L1?
| Quote: |
Our best coach (in terms of technical understanding and ability to convey this to the athletes) is undoubtedly the BASI ISTD we have, although admittedly he also has a racing background.
|
Isn't the BASI ISTD you have also a BASI Trainer as well or not?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
VolklAttivaS5,
| Quote: |
Isn't the BASI ISTD you have also a BASI Trainer as well or not?
|
Not currently - although don't forget Trainer is a job, not a level, so no different to any other ISTD in ability (theoretically).
| Quote: |
I have been under the impression that the BASI Level 1 instructors course was a higher standard required to pass than the CI course does, not just a smidgen higher but quite a lot higher? Based on what you've seen when the courses are run at your slope would you agree with this or not?
|
I'd agree.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| beanie1 wrote: |
VolklAttivaS5,
| Quote: |
Isn't the BASI ISTD you have also a BASI Trainer as well or not?
|
Not currently - although don't forget Trainer is a job, not a level, so no different to any other ISTD in ability (theoretically).
| Quote: |
I have been under the impression that the BASI Level 1 instructors course was a higher standard required to pass than the CI course does, not just a smidgen higher but quite a lot higher? Based on what you've seen when the courses are run at your slope would you agree with this or not?
|
I'd agree. |
No, I know a Trainer is a role not a level, and it's something that an ISTD can apply to do if he/she wishes to and they may be accepted for the role or declined. I was thinking that there (theoretically speaking) should be no better person than an ISTD to coach the racers, that's great that they have someone of the highest level attainable in teaching/technical available to them also with racing background as well. Brill. 
Glad you agree re CI compared to L1. What about the ASSI pass standard compared to L1? Any thoughts on that from what you've seen course wise at your slope?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
VolklAttivaS5, Can't comment from personal experience as I've never seen an ASSI course run, but I'm told that ASSI is slightly higher than BASI L1. The L1 course was designed to be achievable for people who'd otherwise have done the CI course, whilst still preparing people to go on to L2.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
beanie1, ok thanks. Yeah.....interesting though that for both CI's and ASSI's qualified after 31st July 2007 they now need to do the full 5 day BASI L1 course if they want to convert to BASI from UKSS whereas before they had the 1 day conversion with assessment element for CI's and the 1 day conversion for ASSI's without the assessment element. That made me wonder if the Level 1 was on a par with the ASSI perhaps since they now need to do the 5 day course one way or another.
Anyway, I guess from system to system you get strong and weak skiers within levels, i.e some passes are strong "blown it out the water" passes and other passes could be "passed but got it just about".
Thanks for the info.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
VolklAttivaS5, I think the earlier rule was to encourage more people to change systems, now it's gone back to the "standard" rule which is if you're moving over from another system you have to go back one step.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
beanie1, aaaaaah I seeeeeee! 'Course being a relative newbie I didn't know that about before. Makes sense now. I've finished my 70 hours shadowing now by the way. Will do my L2 end of next season/next summer, I have got a lot of things I want to get sorted and practice this season before I go for next Level.
Thanks for your help.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
rjs, i am of mixed mind as well. i can see offering a BASI L1 coach to good ex racers, competent skiers etc that want an entry level qualification to help at the race clubs but dont really want to teach beginners and wish to work longer term with a consistent group. but, at the same token most of those entry level level coaching jobs (like I do) involve much more basic instructing than high level "race" coaching. it is very much coaching biased with a longer term view and teaching warm ups, cool downs, fitness periodisation, etc.
I think the coach versus instructor arguement comes into play in that the coaching badge is geared towards longer term improvements but it is more than helpful to have a solid grounding in teaching fundamentals.
I go back to my grade 3 and still vividly remember having to do demos and then picking apart everyone during their straight glide demos. at first thought a waste of time but later on the video reviews sure enough every flaw exhibited by even the best skiers showed up later during their performance skiing on piste.
as graham said the L1 was more about how to coach as opposed to how to instruct. But, it might not be fun or glamourous but doing your "apprenticeship" teaching central theme to beginners is a very good grounding...
tough one...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
VolklAttivaS5, This is how I see the technical skill levels between the various Associations.
Starting from the Bottom:
SSE CI
SSS ASSI - BASI L1 - CSIA L1
SSE ASSI
BASI SI
CSIA L2
BASI L2
CSIA L3 ISIA
BASI Ski Teacher ISIA
CSIA L4 - BASI ISTD
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Spyderman, that looks about right to me from what I've seen/been told except I'm not sure about BASI L2 and ISIA being any higher than their CSIA L2 and L3 equivalents.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
I think GrahamN brought up a good point. With SSE you need to do a CI, some shadowing hours and then be assessed before moving onto race coaching. I like the fact that you dont get your cert until you have done all. But a practical problem is that you end up with people who dont reach the mark technically and do endless annual resits, I have heard that happens quite regularily.
I can sympathise that an aspirant race coach like GrahamN wouldnt want to do ski school shadowing of beginners but say if the BASI ADC L1 had a shadowing hour requirement within a race coaching environment i think that would be an excellent addition.
The other way of doing it is like the Canadians. Once you pass their Entry Level ( L1) you are "trained" You then need to serve your apprenticeship to get "certified"status. Neat solution to the problem IMO.
Spyderman, try doing that with Coaching levels 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
skimottaret, The UKSS L2 PC has a requirement to do at least 20 hours supervised "work experience" after doing the course, maybe this is enough and they could remove the requirement to do CI first.
I will try to shadow the L2 course if it goes ahead as I will be the one that has to supervise them afterwards.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
rjs, skimottaret I'd agree with those ideas.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
GrahamN, You are welcome to do some hours with me if you like
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Spyderman, thank you for taking the time to clarify that for me, I appreciate it. Out of interest, why have you put SSE ASSI above SSS ASSI and BASI Level 1? I thought all of the UKSS ASSIs would be the same?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
VolklAttivaS5, cause he's english 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| slikedges wrote: |
| Spyderman, that looks about right to me from what I've seen/been told except I'm not sure about BASI L2 and ISIA being any higher than their CSIA L2 and L3 equivalents. |
I did that because at the moment BASI require more modules than CSIA to achieve Ski Teacher level.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Spyderman,
| Quote: |
I did that because at the moment BASI require more modules than CSIA to achieve Ski Teacher level.
|
If thats the case should the ISTD not be higher than the CSIA L4?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| VolklAttivaS5 wrote: |
| Spyderman, thank you for taking the time to clarify that for me, I appreciate it. Out of interest, why have you put SSE ASSI above SSS ASSI and BASI Level 1? I thought all of the UKSS ASSIs would be the same? |
My reason is, apart from English being best  is that the SSS ASSI is a 5 day course with constant assessment, to which there is no fail at the end, just an action plan if the standard isn't reached within the 5 days. Elements which aren't at the required level can be worked on and re-assessed at a later date, so if for instance your short radius turns aren't good enough, but everything else is OK, then that's all you have to work on and be re-assessed on.
The SSE ASSI is after the training course, a straight 1 day pass or fail exam. So much harder to pass.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| freestyleandy wrote: |
Spyderman,
| Quote: |
I did that because at the moment BASI require more modules than CSIA to achieve Ski Teacher level.
|
If thats the case should the ISTD not be higher than the CSIA L4? |
I think at the top level in BASI & CSIA there's nothing between them. The only difference would be down to the individual, not the standard.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
was at MK on Sunday and there were TWO L1 courses going on, one board and one ski, both groups had 12 people and two trainers. the BASI courses seem pretty popular in the domes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
skimottaret, why do they start some courses on a weekend then, or on a Friday evening?
Yeah, they are popular from what I've seen and always booked up. When I did my L1 in June at Tamworth, there was 1 L1 ski and 1 L1 board course, both full up. I went to Tamworth again in August and there were 2 L1 ski courses and 1 L1 board, again all full up. In September when I was there again, I saw that there was 1 L1 ski, 1 L1 board which were both full up again and the UKSI course too, which had a fair few people on it too considering it was the very first course ran.
I think when the new slope opens at Hemel there will be even more courses run, which is great news for anyone just starting out in Snowsports.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
VolklAttivaS5, i think this was a 5 day course and finished on sunday.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
