Steilhang, I was practising using a compass - but then I don't have an iPhone!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I believe it could lead to intents pleasure
that'll teach me not to check my spelling!
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so what are you supposed to do these days? Run around looking lost with Apple Maps on an iPhone?
Steilhang, you may jest, but I just read a news item about Apple apologising because people had been seriously lost in millions of acres of trackless and dangerous Australian desert territory because of an Apple maps mistake. What kind of damn fool would be relying on Apple maps in the outback????
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
This SkiPresto character did add plenty of v useful info to the debate. But anyone who on the basis of no established facts whatsoever casually labels a young person 'selfish' and implies that she had wasted the time of others as they searched for her - that 'selfish' person being a young woman who had just tragically died - well, I'm very happy to see him retire from our scene.
The idea of a session on transceivers at a future bash or other event is a brilliant one and I'm all for it. But I'd really like that session to be set in the context of learning more about the mountain environment and the signs we can begin to read on avalanche risk. For me it has to be in that order.
anyone who on the basis of no established facts whatsoever casually labels a young person 'selfish' and implies that she had wasted the time of others as they searched for her - that 'selfish' person being a young woman who had just tragically died
I certainly don't condone that. That seems thoughtless and flippant - which is odd, because the rest of his posts were neither of those things.
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learning more about the mountain environment and the signs we can begin to read on avalanche risk
That's easier to do on one's own - by reading. I've read a fair amount now and - having also attended a HAT talk - feel a little bit better informed. But I feel woefully inadequate in terms of knowing how to help in a rescue.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Quote:
learning more about the mountain environment and the signs we can begin to read on avalanche risk
That's easier to do on one's own - by reading. I've read a fair amount now and - having also attended a HAT talk - feel a little bit better informed. But I feel woefully inadequate in terms of knowing how to help in a rescue.
I'd say that's best done on an actual sloep with actual snow as looking at pictures and learning "theory" can be quite different to actually looking at a slope you're considering skiing with a guide (or other qualified/informed person) and discussing the line you'd take and why, the snow, the recent weather and it's effects, the aspect and angle, any safe havens, avalanche traps and escape routes etc.
Having seen a slope avalanche with a guy caught in it and being the first person on the scene, I can honestly say that it’s a scary and stressful situation that was quite unlike any of the training/practising I’d done. Moving across, up and down a 30-40deg slope covered in avalanche debris that has you sinking to your waist every step is very difficult and tiring (fitness is actually quite important), and plays havoc with your mental state as you are acutely aware that finding the person is now your responsibility and the slower you are, the smaller their chance becomes.
As an aside, I ski with a transceiver, shovel and probe nearly all the time. I enjoy skiing off-piste and feel naked heading off without my kit. It increase my chance of survival should I make a poor decision and allows me to help out should someone else require it. As my shovel and probe fit inside my sac (why people like sacs which require a shovel on the outside is beyond me) I don’t look a tool, that is until I strip-off in the bar to chat up ladies but keep my transceiver on so they know I’m CORE!
that's best done on an actual sloep with actual snow as looking at pictures and learning "theory" can be quite different to actually looking at a slope you're considering skiing with a guide (or other qualified/informed person) and discussing the line you'd take and why, the snow, the recent weather and it's effects, the aspect and angle, any safe havens, avalanche traps and escape routes etc.
Oh, absolutely agreed, my comment was just in the context of starting to get a bit better informed while off the slopes.
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Moving across, up and down a 30-40deg slope covered in avalanche debris that has you sinking to your waist every step is very difficult and tiring (fitness is actually quite important), and plays havoc with your mental state as you are acutely aware that finding the person is now your responsibility and the slower you are, the smaller their chance becomes.
I bet. I fear I would be utterly useless.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
[quote="galpinos"]
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Moving across, up and down a 30-40deg slope covered in avalanche debris that has you sinking to your waist every step is very difficult and tiring (fitness is actually quite important), and plays havoc with your mental state as you are acutely aware that finding the person is now your responsibility and the slower you are, the smaller their chance becomes.
Wonder given that if carrying snow shoes as part of the safety / rescue kit has been considered?
After all it is free
After all it is free
I just spotted this from Tignes as well if it has not been posted up already
Rather bad taste of the Avy-Acady to use the story to plug their courses as chrissy pressies
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
DoubleBombardino wrote:
This SkiPresto character did add plenty of v useful info to the debate. But anyone who on the basis of no established facts whatsoever casually labels a young person 'selfish' and implies that she had wasted the time of others as they searched for her - that 'selfish' person being a young woman who had just tragically died - well, I'm very happy to see him retire from our scene.
.
"DoubleBombardino" - is mistaken when stating the above....
The Tignes victim (in the earlier comment) was not referred to directly. The comment was made in a different context, contrasting helmet use as personal choice, with the unselfishly socially responsible wearing of an Avalanche Transmitter/Search-Receiver.
The timewasting comment was never made; "spoilt their day" was the phrase used.
[was edited for accuracy and clarification]
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Fri 14-12-12 0:06; edited 2 times in total
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
They never stay away for long
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
SkiPresto, Seriously you've had a fair crack, lots of people agree with a lot of what you said. Drawing out the debate on petty personal arguments is rather detracting from some of the serious and worthwhile stuff here. Don't become a one issue poster - n'er forget the Lewes Avalanche.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
WTF is going on this season, there was bumper snow last year as well but I don't remember this level of incidents so quickly. Is this better reporting or more people being blitheringly retarded?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Shitonne of snow on zero base . Snowpack has had no time to consolidate or get skier packed plus generally a bunch of yahoos who have the fever after at least 8 months of no skiing.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
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Rather bad taste of the Avy-Acady to use the story to plug their courses as chrissy pressies
In fairness they are a nice bunch of lads having dealt with them and I am not sure they would intentionally intend any bad taste.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
fatbob, which wasn't the case this time last year?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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have the fever after at least 8 months of no skiing
fatbob, Nothing wrong with that, I've got a 108 degree temperature myself............plus all the av gear, ABS and a sensible head on, leaving for the Alps a week today, yee-haa!
Shitonne of snow on zero base . Snowpack has had no time to consolidate or get skier packed plus generally a bunch of yahoos who have the fever after at least 8 months of no skiing.
We had a shitload of snow on a zero warm base last year. The experts* were saying the season was over for off piste back in December
*We have so many experts here. Can't remember which one it was but he might have been Dutch.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Steilhang wrote:
fatbob wrote:
Shitonne of snow on zero base . Snowpack has had no time to consolidate or get skier packed plus generally a bunch of yahoos who have the fever after at least 8 months of no skiing.
We had a shitload of snow on a zero warm base last year. The experts* were saying the season was over for off piste back in December
*We have so many experts here. Can't remember which one it was but he might have been Dutch.
to be fair I've never anywhere in the world seen glide cracks to ground like I saw in St Anton at the end of January last year.
SkiPresto, Seriously you've had a fair crack, lots of people agree with a lot of what you said. Drawing out the debate on petty personal arguments is rather detracting from some of the serious and worthwhile stuff here. Don't become a one issue poster - n'er forget the Lewes Avalanche.
It doesn't seem to me that SkiPresto was the one making this personal. I was amazed at the way he took personal abuse without replying to most of it. I am mystified at the way he has been treated on here.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
meh wrote:
WTF is going on this season, there was bumper snow last year as well but I don't remember this level of incidents so quickly. Is this better reporting or more people being blitheringly retarded?
I don't think it is all that different to last winter, maybe just the mix of people in resort. The Test Technique trainees had left when the first large snowfall happened last year.
There was a comment in a Tignes thread this time last year where someone described skiing "lumpy" off piste and I pointed out that they were skiing on something that had slid full depth a few days earlier.
After all it is free
After all it is free
snowball, SkiPresto & I, I hope are cool but he did say back on p3
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People who cannot be found by their buddies require a full station call-out. 300 people issued with probes, and marching in line abreast defying the elements and trying to find the selfish, unprepared victim.
So I'm not overly surprised that some people have taken this as labelling the specific victim in this case "selfish".
However it's not really the point, the point is he's advocating better preparedness and personal reponsibility, which I'm sure we can all agree with, and a hope that people are prehaps less ignorant or tight fisted when it comes to carrying appropriate gear AND making route choices.
It's gobsmacking to regular readers that after this incident, unequipped Brits were getting avied again in Verbier and Tignes but we need to remember that not everyone is an avid reader of sHs nor has enough common sense to recognise risk factors.
Group hug time?
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
snowball wrote:
fatbob wrote:
SkiPresto, Seriously you've had a fair crack, lots of people agree with a lot of what you said. Drawing out the debate on petty personal arguments is rather detracting from some of the serious and worthwhile stuff here. Don't become a one issue poster - n'er forget the Lewes Avalanche.
It doesn't seem to me that SkiPresto was the one making this personal. I was amazed at the way he took personal abuse without replying to most of it. I am mystified at the way he has been treated on here.
Me too. Even if he was read as being provocative (and I don't think it was that provocative), there was no real need for him to get the double barrelled approach from several others.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I carry the gear everywhere.
THe trivial reason is that it makes getting ready in the morning easier.
More seriously, I never know when I may spot a nice off piste pitch, even when doing a piste day. I have the gear, all it costs is batteries.
I have done some training and read loads. There is always more to learn and as others have said - skills to keep sharp.
WHat I have found by using practice stations (in Zinal particularly) is :
1. Tranceivers have a range that is shorter than the average debris field : You will have to organzse a methodical grid search. If you don't, people die.
2. Wading about in snow is very very hard work : slow : people die.
3. As a result, group management is vital. It is imperitive that you must be strong enough to take command and organize; OR be strong enough to back down and be organised by your peer, even if you think they are wrong - there is no time for ego.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
I just read the details of the latest avalanche in Tignes and am amazed that people think in these conditions it is safe to go off piste without the right gear. At least with the gear you have some chance of being found quickly. In Tignes right where you go off piste to enter the sache area there is a notice board telling everyone to carry the right gear and plenty of warnings that they are entering a dangerous area. The snow is very unstable now, even more so than a few weeks ago. Last season after the big dumps it had more time to become stable before the lifts opened. I fear we will be hearing about more big slides over the coming days as other resorts open. Stay safe out there!!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Monium, I came across this GP video from some time ago of skiing Paquerettes down to PisteH
Are you sure this is what you skied shortly before?
http://youtube.com/v/QuwFfN6ESqo
It is accessed by a narrow path and the slope looks like 40 Degrees - even on the video.
The skier in the video makes pretty heavy weather of it on his Fischer slalomy skis, but he would appear to be a competent skier.
Can you imagine taking 2 groups of 10 trainees all at once down this in deep snow, zero vis, snowing, high wind, and avalanche risk 4+ getting worse?
And no transceivers...
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
SkiPresto, no, we went the other side of the top of Tufs, not around the top track and steep section. We went down the piste and then turned off, and it was at no point that steep. And no, I can't imagine taking 2 groups of 10 trainees all at once down that in deep snow, but I don't think that's what they did either.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Monium wrote:
SkiPresto, no, we went the other side of the top of Tufs, not around the top track and steep section. We went down the piste and then turned off, and it was at no point that steep. And no, I can't imagine taking 2 groups of 10 trainees all at once down that in deep snow, but I don't think that's what they did either.
OK Even after all the pages on this thread, there seems to be some lack of clarity here: Let's look at what we know for sure about the location.
So Monium, you skied the Piste "H" Blue from the top of Tufs chairlift down to where Crocus Red splits off to the right, and you then followed Crocus. Paquerettes (Black) is the steepish slope on the skier's right above Crocus. The Paquerrettes run is directly underneath the top of the Aeroski gondola lift. The line of the top of the lift is clearly seen in the image below.
If you skied the Crocus piste, you would have passed the bottom of Paquerettes.
Monium wrote:
but I don't think that's [skied the steep] what they did either
The Paquerettes slope (illustrated in the above (historical) video) was indeed the slope that slid. It is named as the slope by the witness username "_titi" who was a member of the avalanched party, and I quoted earlier. She stated that she was a member of one of the two groups of 10 descending that slope.
So, it could be argued that it was "on Piste", but, being an advanced Black run, and (what appears to be between 30 and 40 degrees incline) it is not a slope that would be groomered - and it had not been skied.
I have seen no confirmation that this piste was open at the time of the avalanche.
There is no other easy way on to Paquerettes, as was being suggested earlier. It is accessed by the narrow path that cuts back under the Aeroski top station gantry. It is steep all the way from the top, and there is the option of turning back up the access path.
It is valid to conclude that people should make an expert assessment of any slope, On-Piste or Off-Piste, and any steep slope with snow loading during windy, poor visibility, early-season-snowpack conditions should be avoided. Anyone skiing such a slope should be properly equipped for avalanche safety and rescue by their own group members.
Further, people skiing above another piste during dangerous conditions should pay attention to possible consequences for the skiers on the other piste below.
(Photo showing massed ranks of search parties, probing at the crossing of the Aeroski. The top pylons of the lift can be seen in the mist).
From this photo, the slide must have partially covered the lower piste Crocus (Red) below Paquerettes (that is crossed by the Aeroski). The lines of searchers are seen probing up the line of that Crocus Red piste towards Piste "H" - not the Paqueretes run. Paquerettes is delineated by the line of the Aeroski gondola cable and pylons.
We know from "_titi" that one group of 10 went left and some got avalanched. That would be under the lift cable. ("_Titi" was ninth in the line-up, and was told to halt just in time).
Perhaps one of the Snowheads who was present at that scene could confirm that the probe lines were further used to secure the Crocus Red? (Checking that there were no passers by caught up in the slide).
Can anyone point out the position of where the victims were found? Was it down on Crocus or up on the steep Paquerettes?
Does anyone know if the second victim (Chloe) was found by the search teams probing or by one of the dog teams?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
New information.
Answering my own questions: "[were the victims] found by the search teams probing or by one of the dog teams?"
This report by the Director du Service des Pistes Arnaud Trinquier, confirms that the first buried casualty was found by probe and the second was not found by probing or by dogs, but from a very weak, chance Recco echo signal off a piece of electronics carried by the victim. The victims carried no Recco reflector Nor Avalanche Transceivers.
It was also confirmed that Chloe the second victim was buried 1.5m deep.
The size and length of the slide was also confirmed as 100m wide and 300m long. (This would confirm that the slide extended to the piste below).
The sector was confirmed as Toviere, off-piste and closed.
SI VOUS VOULEZ VIVRE : AIDEZ LES SECOURISTES A VOUS TROUVER !!
Compte rendu de l'Accident d'avalanche de Tignes, 5/12/2012
Secteur de Tovière, hors-piste, secteur fermé
CR: Arnaud Trinquier, Directeur du service des pistes
Deux skieurs sont emportés par une coulée de 100 m de large sur 300 m de développement.
L'alerte est déclenchée de suite et les secouristes arrivent très rapidement sur zone avec DVA, chiens et Recco, le poste de secours étant situé au dessus de la pente.
N’étant équipé ni de DVA, ni de réflecteurs Recco, les recherches immédiates ne permettent pas de localiser les victimes. La recherche cynophile (avec chien) ne donne pas non plus d’information sur la localisation des victimes.
Alors que des vagues de sondages se mettent très vite en place la recherche Recco se poursuit en suivant la technique dite des microbandes.
Une première victime est localisée à la sonde et dégagée vivante après 20 minutes d'ensevelissement.
Une seconde victime est localisée avec le détecteur Recco suite à un signal très faible et dégagée après 40 minutes d'ensevelissement en arrêt cardiaque.
Elle sera réanimée mais décédera le lendemain à l'hopital.
Selon le secouriste ayant effectué la recherche Recco, le signal n'a été perçu qu'au dessus de la victime, ensevelie à 1,5 m de profondeur.
Elle n'était pas équipée de réflecteurs Recco, mais le signal Recco a été renvoyé faiblement par un équipement électronique non précisé qui a pu être reçu par le détecteur Recco en recherche fine*.
Plus 200 personnes et 3 équipes cynophiles ont participé aux recherches.
------
*Les victimes n'avaient pas de réflecteurs Recco dans leurs propres équipements et la détection a pû être possible grâce à la poursuite de la recherche en microbande, la portée de certains équipements électroniques étant faible et variable mais parfois suffisante pour permettre une détection.
I spoke to a credible source who says they've had access to the police report. The Pisteurs didn't give the green light to the group to ski the run but said they had done avalanche control work and nothing had moved. Some blame has been apportioned to the ski resort. How much is critical for the lead trainer who currently faces having his license suspended or cancelled.
The resort had not yet got around to marking the area as closed as they had been focussed on opening as much area as possible and had been overwhelmed by the snowfall. There had also been a change of shift between pisteurs and some communication issues between the teams. Both UCPA trainers and ENSA trainers were skiing the area. The UCPA group had not intended to go off piste but were looking for varied conditions.
Any errors in the above are my own.
However it is a lesson to be careful with information you are given and also to watch out at the start of the season when resorts are just beginning to open. I see that a lot in the resort around me where all of the netting, fencing etc is only up for the first holiday week at Christmas. They expect the locals to have some common sense.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Mistress Panda wrote:
SkiPresto, no, we went the other side of the top of Tufs, not around the top track and steep section. We went down the piste and then turned off, and it was at no point that steep. And no, I can't imagine taking 2 groups of 10 trainees all at once down that in deep snow, but I don't think that's what they did either.
Just to pick this back up again, as I've just seen a video uploaded yesterday by our ski buddy, and it is a good reminder to be careful out there and make sure you are carrying the right gear and have someone who knows what they are doing with you, because risks are not always obvious, particularly in the visibility we had that week:
The point where we had turned just an hour before this was at 20 seconds in. The signpost there is evidently a permanent one, and we followed this sign pointing right and fairly quickly realised we were not on a marked piste - by which time we were a hundred metres or more down the "piste"
The crowds are the rescue volunteers, you can see the dogs at the start of the footage, all of which should be praised for trying to help in any way they could. Initially we couldn't work out what was going on, but put two and two together once we got down the mountain that afternoon and were told what had happened.
I am processing my video from the same trip now, and will post if anything comes up that is relevant to illustrate what I am trying to explain, which is basically to go careful once the season proper kicks off.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
I was practising using a compass - but then I don't have an iPhone! 
