 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm off to Les Arcs at Easter and am hoping to try this out, although perhaps not from the very top!!
Is there anything I can be doing in the meantime to increase my chances of surviving the experience?? - I'm feeling nervous about it already!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Matthew it looks awesome - and the records held are awe inspiring - especially the kids that do it!. At the moment its a mogully black run that starts at the top of the Varet gondola.
As I understand at about Easter time they will smooth it out for the time trials - then I guess it gets opened up to the public. If people don't just point down then it will quickly get mogully again - so I guess you need to be there at that perfect window of opportunity after the official trials but before too many 'ordinary' skiers have churned it up.
You're a braver person than me to have a go!
p.s. check out Red Rock - for memorabilia on the walls relating to the flying K
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Matthew: It's a doddle. Honest! They only let you go from half way down anyway on the first attempt, supply you with helmet but you pay extra for the skis if you want the specialist equipment. Otherwise my ten year old daughter went down it a couple of times last year and loved it, managing over 70 mph and on GS skis! (That said, she's a far better skier than me...  ). There's a load of info about it on my site, www.skiclublesarcs.com, go to the English menu on the left, click on 'Les Arcs', then in the dropdown menu at the bottom click on 'Flying Kilometre'
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PG - thats great for 10 years old... will your daughter have a go again this year?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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She races for the Les Arcs club, and towards the end of the season when things calm down a few goes on the KL is the trainer's idea of 'fun'... She wants to have a go from the top this year  if they'll let her. Don't think I'll watch....
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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My elder brother managed 78mph when he was 16, but that just puts the pressure on me even more (I'm 27 now so if I don't beat 78mph I'll probably just not admit to trying it even!!).
PG, I checked out your site earlier from your signature which is what reminded me I've done nothing to prepare myself yet. My brother nonchalently tells me it's a piece of cake and that most people probably have skied faster than they think anyway etc etc, but I'm not convinced!
Is it worth hiring the equipment if they're only going to let me down from halfway? When I say worth it, I really mean 'am I going to beat 78mph without the special equipment'!! Also, my real aim is to break the 100mph mark - is this feasible and if it is how many attempts will I need to work up to that level. ((By the way, I'm a decentish skier - have skied each year from 5 years old - but have never done GS or super-G race training so am not used to skiing at 70 odd mph!))
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Don't see why not, but it does depend on your skis, anything with a really deep sidecut isn't that easy to control in a straight line at speed. That said the run is perfectly prepared (measured with lasers etc) so it's not as hard as it sounds. Get yourself a pair of old conventional straight skis for the day, well waxed, and especially if you hire the special equipment from the Club des Sports, you should find it possible to go over the ton - weight's a factor too, of course .... No problem the lack of race training - you won't have to turn! Just get into a good tuck position, and go for it!
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Ok, so the best preparation between now and Easter is to eat lots!! - especially as I'm only 10 stone!
I could take my old Voilkl P30 RC super-g skis (193cm), but to be honest as I don't want to use them all week I think I'll just go the full hog and hire all the special equipment out there.
I'm going to be there from April 3-10th - the course won't be shut in preparation for the championships will it?
Do you know where I need to go to pay the euros 12.50 and get the equipment? Also I'm staying in 1800 - do I need to ski over and book the previous day or do I just pitch up first thing in the morning?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Sorry, just noticed you said to go to the Club des Sports! Where abouts is that?
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Matthew Clarkson, Well my daughter was only 30kgs or so (what's that, 5 stone? can't think in real money any more after 10 years over here!), so I wouldn't worry. The Club des Sports is based in 1800 at the Chalet Les Sapins, but you can book the run at their place at the bottom of the piste itself.
On actual race days it'll be closed to leisure skiers, but conditions permitting, should be open otherwise... Best to check in the day before when up in 2000, look at the gear, ask the right questions to the experts on the spot...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Sorry, I don't understand how being heavier would help. Never been good at physics, but surely you're - at best - no better off being heavy (Ian/DG - am I being stupid here).
Unless we're thinking that the heavier you are, the closer to the perfect sphere you're likely to be, so therefore smaller surface area for given mass, hence less drag...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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PG, thanks for all the advice. I'll pop over to the Club des Sports in 1800 and then head on over to 2000 to remind myself how insane the course looks. We spent 2 weeks there about 14 yrs ago and our apartment looked up the mountain. I must have watched literally hundreds of skiers do the course and I've been wanting to try it ever since!!
I'll be in Les Arcs leading on a SCGB family holiday, but I think we get a morning off so I'm hoping that'll be enough to get a few runs in. If not, I'll have to lead all the kids down the course!! 
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Masopa, being heavier definitely makes a difference at the top level. The pros use ski poles filled with lead - can't remember precisely but I think they're a couple of kgs each!! I guess the drag remains constant, but the heavier you are the more the pull of gravity down the slope and therefore faster acceleration etc (or did the guy who lobbed things off the leaning tower of Pisa prove it doesn't matter how heavy things are if everything else is constant??? - I really can't remember!).
Looks like neither of us are any good at physics Masopa!!
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You know it makes sense.
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masopa - no you're not being stupid - in the ideal case your weight doesn't matter but the friction between ski and snow is a bit complicated.
Mogul King - a man from the old SCGB open forum has done the Flying K - we don't seem to have him back - I'm sure he'd be telling us how great he was if he were here 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Ian Hopkinson, That wasn't Stephen Neal was it? The most stylish black skier in Europe (and probably the world)?
Surely eating beans might speed you up?
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Poster: A snowHead
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masopa, I'm definitely no expert with respect to the equations involved! But gravity is the ultimate driving force in downhill skiing and drag/friction obviously undermines the power of gravity. Although technique is key in any race, more so for slalom/GS of course, it's always noticeable that on an easy, flat course the heavier skiers have an advantage - on a technical, icy course the slighter builds get on the podium, but they struggle otherwise - wind, friction etc affect their progress more. Given identical equipment and technique, line up several skiers, and the one with the greatest mass will be first to the bottom of the slope.. This is really obviously in children's race categories where you might get one skier weighing 30kgs, another weighing 50kgs plus. Someone once told me that my 30kg daughter had to make up around a 5% disadvantage in comparison to the 55kg racer in a downhill. Say the 55kg racer finishes in 90 secs, the 30kg racer would have to make up 4.5 secs on technique alone - and that in race terms is huge!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| PG wrote: |
| masopa, I'm definitely no expert with respect to the equations involved! |
Fair enough, Gravitational acceleration is a contant 'G' and is 9.8 meters per second per second.
Basically inertia counteracts weight so all bodies accelerate at the same speed if there are no other factors.
Air resistance will have more effect on lighter skiers as they have a greater cross sectional area w.r.t to mass.
However I would tend to discount ski resistance. Heavier skiers have larger skis and may exert more down force due to their greater weight, hence increasing friction.
So I would say it is largely down to wind resistance. Hency the aerofoils and body condoms that the fastest speed skiers wear.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Am I right in thinking that air resistance has a greater effect on lighter skiers simply because their bodies have a greater area facing the direction of travel per unit of mass than someone who is heavy?
I hated applied maths and physics - I can't remember any of that stuff (give me some number theory or algebraic topology any day).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Just remember......Gravity Rules!
Good Luck 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| sherman-maeir wrote: |
Air resistance will have more effect on lighter skiers as they have a greater cross sectional area w.r.t to mass.
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Are you saying that lighter skiers are more dense? 
Snow and ice are slippery because their surface melts under pressure. A heavier skier melts more snow and the friction decreases.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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It says that the air resistance is the key factor - as sherman said up above. The effect seems pretty marginal though but then ski races are won on fractions of a second.
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| sherman-maeir wrote: |
| PG wrote: |
| masopa, I'm definitely no expert with respect to the equations involved! |
However I would tend to discount ski resistance. Heavier skiers have larger skis and may exert more down force due to their greater weight, hence increasing friction.So I would say it is largely down to wind resistance. Hency the aerofoils and body condoms that the fastest speed skiers wear. |
That makes sense to an extent... From observation though in 'sticky' snow conditions the racer with the smaller frame definitely loses time more significantly than on hard-packed, icy courses. So I suppose friction must be playing a role in there somewhere?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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OK. As I understand it:
- If you increase your weight by 10%, you increase the drag from your skis by 10%. Heavy skiiers gain no advantage.
- If you increase your weight by 10%, you increase your wind resistance by only 6.5%. That gives a big advantage to heavy skiiers. (Your mass increases proportionately with the cube of of height; frontal area only increases proportionately with the square of your height)
Curry, chips and beer anyone?
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| Ian Hopkinson wrote: |
| It says that the air resistance is the key factor - as sherman said up above. The effect seems pretty marginal though but then ski races are won on fractions of a second. |
I read it as saying that an 80kg skier has a 0,4% advantage over a 75kg skier. There are few World Cup level downhillers less than 80kg (if any), so now we know why - up against the heavyweights they'd have little chance of making up the difference on technique alone at that level... just that 5 kg difference means nearly half a second to make up on an 80 second downhill course.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Does it help if you cover yourself in baby oil?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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So how much of the Herminator's legendary status is down to his obsession with gym work/building up muscles and hence extra weight and how much to his certifiable insanity when actually on the downhill course??
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masopa, It'll be sharkskin catsuits next
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You know it makes sense.
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| masopa wrote: |
| Does it help if you cover yourself in baby oil? |
Only in the chalet...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Matthew Clarkson, Stand next to a World Cup downhill (you just don't realise the speed when watching the box) and it's pretty clear that they're all crazy....!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Just out of interest, PG, what level are you hoping your daughter will get to? Do you not worry about her moving on to downhill racing?? Thinking about it, I'm sure GS is pretty scarily fast at the top level as well!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Racing's gotta be safer than general piste "bashing" as you're the only one the course, at the time. No idiots to ski into you...just stick to your abilities.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Matthew Clarkson, Didn't do so bad last year, 10th in the French Champs, 1st in the Brits for her age category (she's a dual national), but the competition gets tougher as each year passes! She's a lightweight so will probably end up sticking to the GS and slalom which are both fairly safe. Unless she goes for skiercross, which is rapidly gaining in popularity - (people like to see a bit of violence in their sport...) - 4 skiers (boarders) setting off together over whoops, jumps, raised bends etc.... Exciting stuff.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Skiercross is one of the most exciting snow sports to watch, IMO!
Excellent!!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skanky, True, good (but average) skiers stick to their abilities and do ok. Winners take risks and ski right to the limit both in training and racing. If you hold back, someone who doesn't will win. A crash/collision at 80 to 90 mph, the sort of speed downhill skiers achieve (sometimes on blind turns and jumps) can be fatal. Look what happened to Régine Cavagnoud...
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You're right, of course, and there was a little tongue-in-cheekness there (aimed purely against piste-based idiots). However, I wonder who is statistically more likely to get seriously hurt or killed? A racer or an amateur? You would think the racer (and indeed I do, purely on the sheer difference in numbers involved), but I wouldn't want to put tooo much money on it.
Anyway, it'd be a good job being an average professional skier who never won anything compared to mine. I don't win anything in this job, either.
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PG, sounds like she's up there with a good chance of turning pro when she's older - it's fair to say I'm very very impressed while also very very jealous!!
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skanky, That's a tough one - so many factors, such as many amateur skiers are totally unprepared physically for their short burst on the piste, less savvy about conditions/dangers etc. You often see them getting carried away by the excitement... holiday/adrenalin rush syndrome. Then again racers have to take risks by definition, and spend so much more total time on the snow each season - in the 1st year of secondary school here in Bourg St Maurice the ski study class skis Wednesday, Friday morning and all weekend, plus every day of the Xmas, Feb (2 wk) and Easter breaks. To ensure fitness they do rugby (yes girls as well), wrestling, circuit and interval training, cross country & much more, 10 hours a week. (They still have to do the academic studies so the school days are longer and they get more homework). They also get time off for mid-week races, and often ski on the 2 Alpes or Tignes glaciers during the autumn and part of the summer hols. And as they get older, the snow time increases! The top level skiers in the sixth form go to a college where there are no studies at all through the whole of the winter season, doing a 3-year sixth form course working right through the summer.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ouch. I guess they earn the life, then. Of course, top sports people often have harder lives than we think (that doesn't necessarily include footballers ). My sister says that in Italy, the first prerequisit to being a pro-skier is to have parents who have a lot of money. Where she lives (Courmayeur), the racers tend to be a lot more from Milan and Turin than locals. She might be biased though.
Good luck with your daughter's skiing though, she sounds excellent.
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skanky, Cheers... the main long term aim though is to have the skill - and luck - to be able to enjoy the sport to the fullest for many years to come. Anything else is a bonus. Yes it's costly, but far less so in the Alps than for UK-based hopefuls. If you live on the spot in France clubs often provide free or subsidised equipment, and membership including a season's lift pass works out at around £200 p.a. only! And this is fully inclusive of transport, training, race camps, hotel accommodation when away for races....
I belong to the DHO as well and one parent told me he easily spent £10K a year for his son to attend races and race camps (mostly in Austria, several times a year), and buy the right equipment, etc etc!! As a result competition skiing is a really exclusive sport in the UK, whereas in the Alps almost anyone can and does do it.
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