 Poster: A snowHead
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Re this saturday to saturday thing, whilst there are many hotels who are more flexible I have certainly been told more often than not that a hotel will only take full week bookings during ski season (in ski resorts any potential nit pickers), especially in Dolomites and St Anton. THere seem to be a lot of people posting along the lines pof "I've managed to find a hotel that will take a short booking" theregore it's not the norm to go for a week. I bet most people going on a ski holiday go for a week, that's what they want, and the market caters for them.
I can't see how it would make sense for the big oerators to do anything else the logistics of transfers, paying for a hotel they need to fil all mean a week stay is the best way.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 28-09-10 16:22; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
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Has this thread morphed into "how can Crystal Ski make more money"?
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Well if it has, there's no harm in the UK having a thriving and profitable holiday industry - thriving and profitable because it has learnt to develop and respond to customers' requirements, is there? |
Indeed not - I look forward to the blinding results
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Most villas and country cottages will only rent out the whole week in the summer months too so this is more comparable to chalets/apartments in ski resorts during the winter months.
I think that, as explained already, it is really to make the TO lives a bit easier (and frankly I don't begrudge them that - I wouldn't want to sort out the 1,000s of people they have to deal with).
However, we are now seeing the niche market develop for those who do not meet the mainstream Sat/Sat market. As this sector starts to grow and more companies offer more flexible dates people will realise that they can do something different for a reasonable price and might choose to do it thereby growing the sector even more. More of the TO will then move into offering that type of product. Adapt and survive. But, as Wayne says, we are not there yet (and may never be).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Shimmy Alcott wrote: |
| Has this thread morphed into "how can Crystal Ski make more money"? |
i read it as more 'how can crystal improve the experience for its customers'. how could that be anything other than good?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Wayne Just made a full reply of points that I thought might be relevant but the server timed me out, and I can't be ar$ed to re-write it. If I can summon up the enthusiasm later I will, but briefly the post was heavily modified from original and as most of the points ended up being aimed at the majors, not you, I should have removed your name (as I was quoting you, subsequently removed) from the opening. Apologies for the confusion.
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| Tiger2 wrote: |
| However, we are now seeing the niche market develop for those who do not meet the mainstream Sat/Sat market. |
I very much doubt it, but would everyone in this forum who DIY’s please say a big thank you to all the people who book with a TO, as they are supplementing not only the cost of your trips but also the fact that DIY trip are available in the first place.
(is there a stirring it up icon somewhere  )
I went in Sainsburys yesterday to get some bread. The vast majority of the bread on sale was the same shape and either brown or white. Some was thick cut, some medium and some thin but the point is the vast majority of it was the same shape and colour.
Why ? well I assume that’s what “most” people want to buy.
Of course the was a tiny section of shelving full of weird and wonderful shapes and sizes, different colours and even some stuff that you’re meant to cook yourself. I will also assume that both the supermarkets and bakeries (and the bankers and investors) have done in depth studies into the type, shape, colour, etc of bread that “most” people want and that are what the concentrate on. You couldn’t, as an example, run a large scale bakery producing only small round buns. You really do need to operate your business on a sound, proven, business model. If you don’t then you can bet your last slice that someone else will.
There will always be a tiny operable market catering to niches but this will be based around the foibles of just a small customer base and, to put it bluntly, that niche is only able to exist due the other, large scale, operations of the companies servicing the need. So, without the normal sliced bread the weirdoes wouldn’t be able to purchase there tofu and humus seed batches.
If you’re selling bread to the UK market you need to supply what “most” people want, eg. Brown or white sliced loafs. You simply can not look at what is available in other countries and assume that the British market would follow suit. In Italy they hardly ever eat what we would call, normal, bread other then to make toast. I am told that in France they have loafs of bread that are ten foot long and in Germany sandwiches have a dual purpose, in that you can bang in nails with them before you eat em.
Enough of the analogies – the niche ski market (DIY and other ad-hocs) is only there due to the vast majority of skiers turning up at the weekend, have a week’s ski holiday and then going home.
If you look with distain at the majority of people who each year book their TO holiday for a week, you should remember that you are only able to enjoy your 5 or 16 day’s holidays thanks to those you look down on. Whilst a small hotel or apartment complex may be able to survive on ad-hoc bookings, it is only still in business due to its’ proximity to the ski lift – which is paid for by the majority of people.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wayne, where has this disdain or looking down on people idea come from?
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Wayne, OK you've convinced me, next half term I'll cough up an extra £600 plus to Crystal for the 2 of us rather than bits here and there to Easyjet, Swiss Rail and a local apartment owner 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Wayne wrote: |
| would everyone in this forum who DIY’s please say a big thank you to all the people who book with a TO, as they are supplementing not only the cost of your trips but also the fact that DIY trip are available in the first place. |
Self drive to airport
Flights on easyJet
Car hire with Europcar
Privately sourced apartment
Lift pass from the office
Ski hire from the nearest hire shop
Eating out in restaurants or buying food from the local supermarket
That's the layout of a pretty typical DIY holiday. What part of that is subsidised by the activities of tour operators, please?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Colin B, and Mr Technique,
The point was that you can only have the choice to do your Easyjet, Swiss Rail, etc due to TO's and thier clients paying for the facilities that you require when you arrive - lifts, resort roads, shops, piste patrol, etc, etc.
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Mr Technique, Not sure, but I think if no one buys any bread then you cant have a supermarket
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You know it makes sense.
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TO's and their clients pay for the local supermarket, the access roads to the resort, and the lift infrastructure do they? And the piste patrol?
You've got receipts to prove that, yes?
Oh, you mean that the resort pays for those things, and the TO and their clients use them, not pay for them. Gotcha.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I don't even know why I've allowed myself to be drawn into this.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Still not sure I agree. This year I went to Laax. Mainly Swiss and Germans there, I suspect they don't use TO's. There were hardly any UK skiers there, not many UK TO's have discovered it. Seemed to be thriving nicely though.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wayne you are right that the masses will always use TO and thus the TO business plan will rely on shipping lots of people around. Expanding your market is, as you said, a lot of hard work for little return.
However, the fact that the flight market has opened up, the fact that cars are now more reliable than in the past, the ease of the channel tunnel etc means that there are now choices for the niche traveller. The only part of Mr Technique's itemised holiday that is inflexible is the renting of the apartment/hotel. As more people start to demand this flexibility so more places will offer it. There are, indeed,  s whose business plan is based upon it.
After all, the supermarket only stocks the bread for "weirdos" because there are enough of them to make it worthwhile. Sure it's not their bread and butter (pun intended) but it must still return them a profit.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
I don't even know why I've allowed myself to be drawn into this.
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Difficult to resist when you read such absurd arguments. You might equally - and more plausibly - claim that the huge majority of Alpine skiers who are NOT travelling with UK TOs are subsidising their entire operation.
Rarely heard anything quite so daft. Makes you wonder how the majority of resorts where no UK TOs operate manage to exist at all.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Mr Technique, Wayne's point is that if the mass market didn't exist then neither would the infrastructure. Don't be dense.
However, this mass markest does not consist solely of UK tour op clients. I think I've pointed out before that the world doesn not revolve around the British skier. 
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| pam w wrote: |
| Rarely heard anything quite so daft. Makes you wonder how the majority of resorts where no UK TOs operate manage to exist at all. |
Because they are used/funded by non-UK TO's and self drive foreigners (& Mr Technique, of course ). But as we are talking on a (mainly) UK based ski forum the analogy was aimed at this target.
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Or to put put another way; if TO's stopped delivering punters to the slopes the impact would be immediate and profound, the resorts could just not operate profitably without a certain volume. If people stopped DIY'ing then a few private accommodation owners would find themselves out of pocket, but everything else would carry on more or less as normal
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Lizzard,
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I think I've pointed out before that the world doesn not revolve around the British skier
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You'll be telling us the Emperor is wearing no clothes next This is snowHeads after all....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Mr Technique, Wayne's point is that if the mass market didn't exist then neither would the infrastructure. Don't be dense. |
"The infrastructure benefits from economies of scale" is not in question.
"It would not be there at all without UK tour operators - so say thank you", on the other hand...
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La Plagne has 70% French visitors. Of the 30% left 17% are from the UK. (Probably less last season) I suggest that there would be ski resorts without the Brits, in fact I believe if one looks closely there are French Swiss and Austrian resorts with next to no Brits visiting them.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Its the cold bed / warm bed argument. Resorts that have leaseback property or are supported by TO have a higher seasonal occupancy (hence warm beds) and therefore revenue with which to invest in the infrastructure. This does not subsidise the DIYer, they pay the same lift pass prices
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| nick0861 wrote: |
| Shimmy Alcott wrote: |
| Has this thread morphed into "how can Crystal Ski make more money"? |
i read it as more 'how can crystal improve the experience for its customers'. how could that be anything other than good? |
I gave tens of thousands to TUI for holidays - I was then mis sold a holiday by them and the attitude was "like it or lump it". Maybe now the market is a bit tougher they realise they need to be better at what they do, but the £££££ will ALWAYS come first. Am I cynical? In general no, where TUI is concerned - yes.
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Ok I am going to forget about loaves of bread (too hungry) and whether TOs keep a resort ticking over.
I tend to DIY but I am not against TOs as such. It is how I go about booking my ski holiday that usually means I end up DIYing. I often go in a group (6 - 12 people) although sometimes I just go with my husband. With a group, I will consider what type of skiers/boarders we have, what are our preferences and then pick a resort we would like to go to. Then I look at what accommodation is available both DIY and with TOs, and compare price, size, comfort, proximity to lifts. etc. A TO may only have beds in a small number of properties, and more often, it is a DIY accommodation option that wins. I should mention than I am usually on the low budget end of the scale, looking at getting good value for money.
So get a group of friends together ---> figure out our requirements ----> chose a resort ----> look at accommodation options in resort (both DIY and TO) -----> chose our favourite.
I appreciate it is hard for any TO to compete with the range of choice available in resort, so economies of scale, less hassle and good price deals help win people over to TOs.
There are other reasons why I prefer DIY, but it is usually the choice of accommodation in resort than wins it for group travel. I would prefer to use a TO more often, and have some of the hassle and risk taken out of the holiday, but this is weighed against the gains in the quality/choice/location/size of the accommodation through DIY.
The reasons I mostly DIY, in no particular order...
* Greater choice of accommodation in resort (as I have already said)
* The internet makes it very easy for me to compare all deals and options, which was not the case in the past
* Flexibility. I can book an 8 bed SC apartment but chose to only have 6 sleep in it, with no one on the sofas in the lounge, at very little cost difference
* When I go on a week holiday I like to be able to ski for 7 days. I might book a night in the airport city (Geneva/Grenoble) and still have Sat-Sat accomm in resort, but have the extra city night either at the very start or end of the holiday, allowing me an extra ski day. If TOs even just did the 7 day ski with a late saturday night flight, I would definitely be more tempted by TO.
* Sometimes it does work out cheaper than a TO, most often not but the value for money is often greater (e.g a better quality, larger apartment if I DIY for only £20 extra pp)
I am more likely to go with a TO when it is just my husband and I travelling, as there is less risk of sleeping on a sofa in an overfilled apartment, and we can take advantage of the TOs buying power to get better hotel deals. I dont DIY because I think I am above TOs, or because I like the extra hassle.
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You know it makes sense.
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Wayne, The market might be different if there were no TO, - but it doesnt mean it wouldnt exist. That's rubbish. I think your vested interest in the subject clouds your POV.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
If TOs even just did the 7 day ski with a late saturday night flight, I would definitely be more tempted by TO.
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That would have you arriving in the early hours of a Sunday morning - you like that idea? And you'd have to get out of your accommodation earlier than you want to so the staff can change it over. Can't imagine you'd be too keen on that either.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hello again all
It's Tuesday and I'm only vaguely keeping up with you all, but it's an interesting debate to which I'd like to continue contributing.
First of all - @ Mr Technique - now you've made my presence all the more interesting with an incentive of 40 quid, how could I give up now! 
(If I win, perhaps you would donate the cash to DSUK?) How many posts do I need to qualify?
@ bertie bassett - with regards to in resort reviews and tips from customers - yes that is a great idea and another one we have in the pipeline. As another poster mentioned though, none of the infrastructure and process around the software comes for free. We have to be quite clear about how the process is managed before we put something live on our website.
@ sugardaddy - with regards to "vague descriptions" you would be surprised how sometimes hoteliers are loathe to provide us with decent information, and even prevent us from taking photos in their hotels. However, you make a decent point in that we recognise sometimes the success or otherwise of our customers' holidays rests on one or two individuals saying or doing the right thing (or things) at the right time. People have off days.
@ pam w - re "learnt to develop and respond to customers' requirements" - that is precisely what we would like to think we are doing. Some people will continue not to choose us. That's also OK, customers' prerogative and all that.
@ Wayne, Colin B, and others discussing how tour operators support the industry - Wayne is largely correct in my view. The resorts (and the tourist boards for each country) are generally very very keen to have our business (meaning UK travellers). We work closely with them because they know that we will more or less guarantee a level of volume into their resort, which is all good for the local economy. In many cases the "2 for 1" lift passes we do are due to great deals we can get from economies of scale unavailable to smaller operators.
@ Shimmy Alcott - I'm genuinely sorry that we appear to have angered you so much. One of my observations on tour operating is that due to the business model (high risk, low margin) tour operators have not kept up with other industries in managing customer relationships. In particular most tour operator IT systems lag behind in this regard. When the market is good, this doesn't matter so much but when it's bad, these issues start to show. When you had your not so good experience, we most likely would have had limited knowledge of your previous trips. Even worse, if you had booked a Crystal holiday via one of our 3rd party retailers, we would have had almost zero knowledge. This is a big challenge for us as a business, and one we're putting quite a bit of brainpower behind sorting out at the moment.
We're sorry to have lost your business but hopefully we're still listening and want to improve our service.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Lizzard
If TOs even just did the 7 day ski with a late saturday night flight, I would definitely be more tempted by TO.
That would have you arriving in the early hours of a Sunday morning - you like that idea? And you'd have to get out of your accommodation earlier than you want to so the staff can change it over. Can't imagine you'd be too keen on that either.
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Sorry, I wasnt that clear. I dont mind leaving my Sat-Sat accommodation on Saturday morning as per usual, leave my luggage at hotel/luggage store (most places have one), skiing for most of the day, quick change of clothes then a TO bus at say 4pm to take me to the airport. Flight at 7pm so back at UK airport by 8. Home in time for bed.
I don't think that is unreasonable? I know it probably won't appeal to everyone, but I would guess that it might appeal to enough people to make it viable for a TO to offer this?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Lizzard
Quote:
If TOs even just did the 7 day ski with a late saturday night flight, I would definitely be more tempted by TO.
That would have you arriving in the early hours of a Sunday morning - you like that idea? And you'd have to get out of your accommodation earlier than you want to so the staff can change it over. Can't imagine you'd be too keen on that either.
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Lizzard, you might be being a bit literal. In the past when traveling out with a TO I've been offered the option of getting a slightly later flight out (so I don't have to check in at 4am) or a slightly later flight back so I don't have to be standing outside at 4am waiting for a coach and perhaps get a mornings skiing and lunch in. You normally have to pay a bit more, but it is something I like.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 28-09-10 12:32; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| carettam wrote: |
| quick change of clothes then a TO bus at say 4pm to take me to the airport. Flight at 7pm so back at UK airport by 8. Home in time for bed. |
Maybe (in an ideal world).
You assume that the airport is no more than an hours drive from where you board the coach.
There will be no traffice jams.
Everyone turns up on time to catch the bus.
Noone misses the lift to get them up to the top of the run back to resort.
Noone falls over on the piste on the way back to resort
etc
etc
etc
etc
This sort of thing "may" work in a family group, but with a large group (up to 50 people) you're makingg some big assumptions
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Try saying "and" rather than "but", Wayne.
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One thing that will have to be taken in to account with having numerous change over days within a week is the impact on staff. I worked in a chalet last Winter where one week I was changing rooms over on 4 different days, thus missing out on hill time, one of the main reasons I was there, and for no extra pay. There was also the additional cost of more bedding/towels to be laundered within a period of time.
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| Quote: |
@ Shimmy Alcott - I'm genuinely sorry that we appear to have angered you so much. One of my observations on tour operating is that due to the business model (high risk, low margin) tour operators have not kept up with other industries in managing customer relationships. In particular most tour operator IT systems lag behind in this regard. When the market is good, this doesn't matter so much but when it's bad, these issues start to show. When you had your not so good experience, we most likely would have had limited knowledge of your previous trips. Even worse, if you had booked a Crystal holiday via one of our 3rd party retailers, we would have had almost zero knowledge. This is a big challenge for us as a business, and one we're putting quite a bit of brainpower behind sorting out at the moment.
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It was booked directly with First Choice over the phone. It was the year that First Choice and Crystal "merged" so I had two booking references etc. You are right to be concerned about not building on the history of your customers. My frustration comes from being a very good customer. Never complains, never needs to bother the reps, pretty laid back so I just enjoy my holiday etc etc added to that I was giving your company a whole lot of money. The year of this mess up I already had two other holidays booked with you. Another skiing one - at around £5k and a summer holiday at around £3k - add that to the £11k for the "disaster" booking and I'd put almost £20k of business in your direction in one year. If you valued your previous customers you should have known a) this woman spends a lot of money with us and b) she never causes us any bother, as a result of which your company might have treated me better following my problems.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Mr Technique wrote: |
| Try saying "and" rather than "but", Wayne. |
OK, AND there are no airports anywhere in the Dolomites within an hours drive from a resort (when you have to carry passengers AND all that involves)
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| Quote: |
Wayne wrote:
Maybe (in an ideal world).
You assume that the airport is no more than an hours drive from where you board the coach.
There will be no traffice jams.
Everyone turns up on time to catch the bus.
Noone misses the lift to get them up to the top of the run back to resort.
Noone falls over on the piste on the way back to resort
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Flight and bus times can be varied, I think it would work for most resorts that are less than 2 hrs from an airport.
Traffic jams apply regardless of what time of day the transfer bus leaves, but if anything, jams might be less likely later in the day as they avoid the changeover day morning rush?
Yes it will be difficult to make sure everyone gets to the coach on time, but again this applies (maybe to a lesser degree?) for the more 'normal' morning transfer- people oversleep, someone decides to pop to a nearby shop and cannot then be found, someone lost their ski/camera/handbag and refuses to leave without it, a toddler wanders off. Yes it wouldn't be foolproof perfect, but neither do I think a morning bus is that either!
As to someone falling over, these things do happen. Unfortunate yes, but most peoples travel insurance would cover this to varying degrees.
I am just saying that with a bit of thought, it is something that should be acheivable, something that I would be interetested in and possibly something that might be useful for some TOs to consider at some of their resorts.
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FAQ
)
) I can imagine the huge tantrum if one was late back from skiing and the bus went without him as well.