Hi. Trashed an ACL a few weeks ago playing hockey. Had some tidy-up arthroscopy (cartilage trim and ACL stump removal) the other day. And will face a decision as the swelling drops and the muscle builds, in a few weeks or months - surgery or not. The cost should be covered on the insurance so it's a technical/lifestyle decision I guess.
I can aleady walk, jog, cycle, etc. and will have no problem keeping generally fit. But I enjoy the occasional ski/board holiday, and want to take the teenage kids (I'm mid 40's) some more times.
In most of the threads that I've read, I see people going for ACL repair surgery. But I understand there are various pros & cons.
Does anyone here ski/board without ACL repair surgery - will a top-notch brace do the job?
And whether or not I have surgery, am I better focusing on boarding than skiing?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
bh, My OH skis with a missing ACL. He learned to ski without it, since he was not aware that it was detached. Had a tidy up Arthroscopy about 1993, consultant advised him not to bother with a rebuild, since he has good muscle tone in that leg. Uses a Cti Edge Brace to ski as recommended by the Consultant.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
bh, going through the same dilemma at the moment - was helicoptered off the mountain around 5 weeks ago whilst ski touring well away from a resort, I was then out there for a couple more weeks before returning to UK by the end I was walking up the mountain really well but had to use poles to aid me in the descent, so I was pretty mobile which did make me think maybe I had not done the ACL.
That said the treating Doctor in France said it was my ACL due to the immediate swelling, a physio friend out there also did a test and said my tibia showed all the signs of a ruptured ACL as did my Doctor once back in the UK.
I'm not on insurance so rather than wait to be sent to various departments to assess me, first muscular skeletal who would then agree I've done something and then refer me to orthopaedics who would then see me and then say that to be sure they would need an MRI, last week I paid £250 for a private MRI at Vista in London. I did this is agreement with my GP as he agreed this strategy and had to refer me for the MRI so this would help me leapfrog the "system" .
Today I had a call from him saying he had the report and that I have done my ACL - so I'm seeing him tomorrow hopefully, and we've agreed that I pay to see the top knee consultant that there is around here http://www.mrjameslewis.co.uk for him to confirm exactly what my options are, and then I go NHS for the reconstruction.
I'm not hesitating on the operation as I windsurf as often as it's windy (as I live on the coast and am flexible in my work) and go to the mountains 6 weeks or so a year and just don't want to chance fecking my knee again brace or no brace. I reckon it's worth a year off games.
I'm a fit n'strong 52 year old. The downside is that currently I'm quite happy just being back on the bike, and have been thinking about racing again this summer. Windsurfing is non existent at the moment as the wind's in the wrong direction for us here so I'm not missing any. It's just that the surgery means I'm going to be seriously laid up for quite a while and I'm going to have to be really lucky to be back on skis next season!
It's a hell of a depressing situation (though I do know it's nothing compared to what others maybe going through in life) seems perverse that you do your acl end up on crutches for two to three days and then a month later you can walk etc but to get better you have an operation that sees you on crutches for at least six weeks!
By the way, there's no way I could jog / run as every now and again it feels really unstable. Going up to London on the train last week I was standing up and the train jolted and I felt my knee give way.
bh, Weathercam, I ski without an ACL - tore it & various other bits & pieces in my knee about 3or 4 years ago. It took a lot of physio & exercising to strengthen it again & the first year I skied with a knee brace & found it was good for my confidence, as that had taken a bit of a bashing too. Coincidentally my brother also tore his ACL a few weeks before I did! He's a GP & does a lot of gnarly snowboarding, dinghy sailing (on the trapeze) motorbike riding - you get the picture?? He hasn't had time to get his repaired & now probably wouldn't bother either. I was told that the chances of a sucessful repair were less after the age of 45, & I decided I'd rather live with my knee as it was than have any surgery. To be honest, I'd have to look at my MRI scan to remember which knee it was now. The lack of proprioception was the worst problem for me, but no problems now
Good luck to you both whatever you decide to do
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Knackered Knee Update - well got that wrong yesterday, today went to see Doctor and he gave me a copy of the report. When he rang me up yesterday he failed to tell me that not only I've torn the ACL, I've also torn the Medial Meniscus as well as damaging the posterior aspect of the tibia stretching across the tibia from medial to lateral, though the collateral ligaments are intact, almost the "Unhappy Triad" !
Now have an appointment with top knee surgeon May 12th - though trying to see if he has short term cancellations.
I have had various knee injuries going back about 15 years. Have torn posterior, lateral and then anterior ligaments. The posterior and lateral were not complete tears so I was wearing a Cti Edge brace as my knee was unstable but I was told I didn't need surgery. I had to wear the brace for skiing and scottish country dancing. Then I took another tumble and completely ruptured the acl. I had to have surgery as I couldn't walk with all the loosness in the ligaments. I paid to have it done privately as it was 9 months wait for NHS and I would have lost a ski season. It cost £4000 all in including all the physio (9 months). I had it done about this time of year 7 years ago - I was 55 at the time. I was skiing again the following Christmas. I was told to only ski blue runs on my first trip but after an hour was bored so skied red, then black runs. I now ski everything including moguls but still wear the brace for skiing as the other ligaments are still loose. I don't know who said that surgery wasn't always successful as you get older as my surgeon here in Edinburgh didn't seem to think it would be a problem.
Hope this help you. Good luck - you can be skiing next winter.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Thanks everyone.
Snowbunny, that Cti Edge and similar hinged braces look the part - the original injury was all-of-its-own-accord despite reasonable leg muscles from hockey so I feel a need for surgery or a back-stop even if that ends up just being psychological.
Good to hear from so many people that it needn't be the end of my ski/board holidays, whichever option I go for.
Good luck with the surgeon Weathercam (and with the bills/queues). Sounds nasty - I damaged medial meniscus (hence the trimming) which I'm told is a pretty standard co-incident injury, but I just bruised both bones in one big "clunk" noise. I'm told they do a tidy-up arthroscopy first like I had and then wait for swelling to go before considering reconstructing. Can be a few months to over a year apparently. Thanks for the thread link - I missed that one.
Genepi - yes, ever since the age of 30 I've noticed healing getting ever slower and slower. I'm told by my consultant that if a reconstruct is too tight then it feels great but everything wears out too soon, and if its too loose then it won't "lock" my knee as it should (and in other threads I see mention of other problems if loose). Suspect he'll explain a lot more once we get to the position of choice. 6 months of rehab isn't really me - mountains and team sports are motivating but a gym & exercises are too boring.
I guess I'd better do a few more exercises now, so at least I can get to the decision point sooner, plus at least get the flex in my knee so I can board!
After all it is free
After all it is free
mogulski wrote:
Good luck - you can be skiing next winter.
Thanks - thats encouraging, and my son will be pleased.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
It sounds painful stuff
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chully, oddly, my ACL snappage/repair wasn't painful.
Sometimes the physio was hard work and I ached after...sometimes days after, but it was all worth it I think. Surgeon said after I came out of anesthetic 'it was a mess in there'.
It appears that good muscles can help a lot, so physio and lots more skiing are required...
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Highly recommend repair - just had left knee done. Right knee was repaired in 1996. So now have a matching pair. Had the operation in Lyon, France by a fab surgeon, minimal pain.
Now 4 weeks post op and walking up and down stairs, cycling on static bike and overall feels great....
(Female and just over 40 if you were wondering!)
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I had an ACL repair Hamstring graft at 59 following a ski lift accident and have skied once since the repair I used a brace. I hill-walk, cycle and paddle as well as ski, all purely recreational. On balance I am glad I had the repair but do not underestimate the time for the initial recovery and the level of rehab work you need to do; in my case it has taken well over 12 months.
Do not make the mistake I made and attempt serious walks before you are fully recovered in the belief that the exercise will do you good it didn't and I think set me back 6 to 8 weeks.
Whilst I do not walk or ski with the same confidence as before the accident I can keep up with my friends (just) and hopefully will be able to carry on for a few more years. There may be more problems further on with arthritis and increasing stiffness but I think the gains outweigh the risks especially as after the accident I did not feel confident that I could have skied again.
Incidentally before the operation I heard various stories of the pain both following the operation and the subsequent rehab in my experience whilst by no means pain free the whole process was tolerable.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I tiried going down the rehab route without an op and broke down after 4 months, the only regret is I wish I had the op straightaway. Skied again with a brace in December a year after ACL reconstruction and have been twice more this season and am buzzing, skiing as well as ever probably because I am fitter and stronger than I have been for years. The only problem I have had with the brace is that I have monster calves and I may have to think about getting a custom one as it is too tight and they end up swelling up which can't be healthy!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
bh, the answer to your question is - who knows !!!!
i have worked in msk rehab for 25 years and have seen loads and i mean loads of acl injuries. Each case is different. For every 'wonder' operative success story i can give you a not so good story. Even the best surgeons have their failures. The point being that it is not a given that anyone tearing an acl or pcl will need an operation, in many cases it would be a poor option. On the whole the post op rehab can be a painful and difficult journey with no guarantee that you will regain the function that you desire. However, when it works its great. So ask the medics/physios what is appropriate for you and listen carefully to their advice. Good luck
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Get a knee support sleeve as they are alot better and let your knee stregthen more on their own than rely ona over supportive brace.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 10-02-17 14:45; edited 1 time in total
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
There is always the option not to have surgery. Tim Rodber famously shunned surgery and continued to play rugby for England without an ACL. But, his leg muscles were huge and he trained hard every day. If you don't have surgery, there is the risk of further damage and the need to keep the leg really strong to compensate. If you are a pro sportsman, that could be a relatively short time until the end of your career. If an amateur skier, that could mean hard leg work for the rest of your life. On the other hand, the road back from surgery is a slow, if well trodden one. Most people seem to conclude that the strength and confidence that surgery gives is worth the long road of rehab, but it a more obvious choice in the worst cases, especially if there is additional damage. There is also where you like to ski. The more off-piste and remote, the more important it is to know that your leg is not going to give way. For my own part I ruptured my ACL, had no other damage, no instability, skied between the accident and the operation perfectly happily and really questioned post-op whether I would have elected surgery if I had the choice again. But 18 months on and one ski season under my belt at least I know my repaired leg is up to it, whereas I would never know the same about an injured leg until I was air-lifted off.
Commiserations and good luck all of you whichever route you decide to take.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
When I damaged my call reconstruction (I took half it out but as there was some left they thought I was ok), I then returned to hockey training but it was unstable so while sprinting it collapsed and did a lot of damage to my cartilage. If interested my threads from then are still on here. I am now left able to walk, jog, cycle and ski with a hinged brace but have had to give up hockey and have to be careful as I now know it isn't fully stablem
Definitely get the surgery. I binned my ACL in feb 2015, on season in Austria, decided to work the rest of the season and get the opp done at home. no way i could ski on it for the rest of the winter, but didnt want to leave the mountains. I would definitely advise getting the opp in the alps if you're still there, the Guy at Landeck in Austria is the world specialist because he basically gets every goon that does it from St Anton, Ischgl, Obergurgl, Solden etc. every week. Also, the surgeons in Chambery are supposed to be great as well, from a friend that tore his ACL in Meribel. Because I had to wait 7 months I got used to living without an ACL in my left leg almost, trust me its just weird. my leg was all wobbly, like I still went hiking and scuba diving in Central America for a couple of months, and you can do most things, but you're always feeling something isn't right. Best advice I can give, because I didnt do it myself is to nail the physio. Going to VT next week for first ski since I did it, if i'd done the physio properly I definitely could have gone at the end of last season. 6 months from operation to full mobility and confidence is so achievable if you commit to it, i did really well first four months then dropped off it a bit and really noticed. Smash the "pre-hab" before the op and make sure your muscles are strong and toned, will stop as much wastage while you're off your feet, then hit the physio hard but don't push too much. You have to accept its 6 months of being hampered by the op, you will be worse than you were from the injury i might add, but personally i'd prefer 6 months of poo-poo then back to normal than never having a leg that could do what it could previously. Also, if you live in SW england, get the op done at Derriford by Simon Coleridge, he did a brilliant job on mine, he also does Exeter Chiefs Rugby operations, so is the boy down there. And i got my rehab in london at St Thomas, the physio team there are great. Hope this helps.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
All I know...
Pretty much all the rich american people I know just take the surgery and show no obvious after effects at all. My conclusion: surgery is good, if you have the money to buy the best. I hate the "you just have to put up with it" approach. I can't ever accept that.
NHS physio as I experienced it (for something else) is performed by people who try hard. Their customers are mostly concerned to get enough functionality back to log their massive selves out of bed. They're not aiming at serious sports. I bought my was out of that after one scary visit. On the plus side, the prognoses they gavce assumed that demographic, so they proved to be very pessimistic.
On the plus side, the prognoses they gavce assumed that demographic, so they proved to be very pessimistic.
When I had my first baby the physio came and saw everybody and gave us exercises to do. I was bed bound for 48 hours and she gave me special ones I could do in bed - she was excellent. In those days you were in 8 days for a first baby. The woman was absolutely stunned when I did all the exercises, all the time (there wasn't much else to do!) and had recovered a lot of recovered muscle tone in that time.
After 3 babies I still had a flat stomach - physio works, and I think NHS physios are well qualified. But there are not enough of them, and they are not appreciated. I well remember the women on the ward moaning whenever the poor woman bounced in, in her tracksuit and trainers - she was a bit bouncy and enthusiastic, when we were all in pain with stitches and sore boobs. But she wasn't exactly welcomed with open arms.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I just had to pop up on this thread ...
I'm lucky enough not to have done my ACL ...
But I did an almighty twist on my knee in the Hemmel Fridge 7 weeks ago.
My problem is now the Medial Collateral Ligament, and perhaps the Meniscus.
The Surgeon at the fracture clinic said I CAN'T go skiing this week and to come back and see him at the end of the month.
I joined the gym again, but I'm not sure if I'm doing the right stuff.
I found a sensible set of exercises on YouTube:
I'm going to find a Physio next week and hopefully get myself ski fit ASAP.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 12-12-16 8:20; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
Ooops I only meant to put a link up.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I had an ACL failure 2 years ago, although not diagnosed immediately. (To me) After a second fracture of my leg, it was diagnosed, to me. I elected for a private reconstruction because the NHS told me to get my knitting needles out. No way! My thoughts were ok, l could hit the gym enough to stabilise my knee at 62, but when l am 75 could l still hit the gym, or trundle about on a Zimmer frame. I am going skiing tomorrow for the 2nd time since my opp, first time was very cautious. Snow is good, bring it on😄😡😛
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@margaret, great to hear and well done to you!
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@DrLawn, they are the basics for establishing good knee stability that we should all be doing all of the time.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@22 dropout, isn't that just rehab stuff?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
No, you will find versions of these exercises in good pilates sessions, good gym sessions etc, not just in rehab.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Try doing the second exercise in a slightly different way. Sit on a mat, up straight, core engaged, legs out straight. Contract the muscles of one leg, lift it three inches off the floor keeping it straight, then slowly move the same leg laterally to the side as far as you can go without moving the hips at all, keep it level and bring it back to centre and do it ten times without touching the floor. Same with the other leg. The fourth exercise is small pistol swat with full extension, the third a quad weight stack just using the weight of the leg, the fourth a squat with good technique and the first can be done standing on a train or in a queue etc. If you are a long distance runner, or use a cross trainer or a cyclist the full contraction of the quad and vmo is something that rarely happens, at the expense of knee stability. So we all do loads of exercise and yet our knees start to ache and we break bits if we forget to maintain the basic stability required in the first place i.e. these exercises.
if you ever up the distance of your running or cycling you will likely get knee pain if not doing these exercises, as you will develop your quad over your vmo, put tension on the kneecap and end up in rehab, ironically, doing these exercises… And yes, it has happened to me a few times...
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Thanks for the very detailed and complicated advice @22 dropout I'll study that later.
I just noticed I had made an almighty typo in my last post above.
I CANT go skiing yet.
@margaret! Well done .. and your just a Babe still
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
When I had my first baby the physio came and saw everybody and gave us exercises to do. I was bed bound for 48 hours and she gave me special ones I could do in bed - she was excellent. In those days you were in 8 days for a first baby. The woman was absolutely stunned when I did all the exercises, all the time (there wasn't much else to do!) and had recovered a lot of recovered muscle tone in that time.
