 Poster: A snowHead
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Sean Newsom's major opening article on skiing in today's Sunday Times (I assume - it's just up on their website) focuses on resorts where you might escape the madding crowds this winter, including ...
... the Rockies of the USA and Canada especially "mid-week", lesser-frequented resorts of Switzerland, the southern French Alps, Lech in Austria, and the Monte Rosa ski area of northern Italy.
There's lots of detail, and other suggestions. Click here.
Any comments on the article?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Pay no attention to any such articles.
They are mostly written by freeloaders with double-barrelled names.
Sunday Times always has one journalist who does nothing but produce a weekly article (nice work if you can get it). Last one was a bald feller whose photo was always carefully cropped to disguise this fact - unless he was wearing his ski hat, of course.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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He mentions Vaujany which is so quiet that it doesn't actually have any pistes on it's side of the valley AFAIK. It does link into Alpe d'Huez by a huge cable car but that's not exactly known for peace and quiet or uncrowded slopes. I agree the village of Vaujany is a laid back, little to do, destination. Ski Peak have their well respected operations there.
Apart from that mini moan there's lots of other good stuff in there and hundreds of links.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Sun 2-10-05 10:44; edited 1 time in total
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Latchigo, I've not written for the Sunday Times for quite a few years but the travel editors I worked for there were pretty accommodating to objective non-freebie material. It's true that one writer in particular had a regular circuit of cosy destinations but - compared to much of the press - I think their ski coverage has stood up pretty well over the decades.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| kuwait_ian wrote: |
| Apart from that mini moan there's lots of other good stuff in there and hundreds of links. |
The links are mainly holiday companies, so there is possibly a drink or two in it for him if they get a mention.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Latchigo, the travel editors I worked for there were pretty accommodating to objective non-freebie material. |
I would hope so. It is the partisan, freebie-inspired puffs that I worry about.
As a newspaper the Sunday Times went downhill years ago, when journalists like Hugo Young left.
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I see the Times, Indie and Torygraph have all used this weekend to launch their skiing reports. Coincidence? Anyone seen the Absurder yet?
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 2-10-05 11:14; edited 1 time in total
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Latchigo, you say:
"so there is possibly a drink or two in it for him if they get a mention."
And possibly not. Do you know Sean Newsom? I don't.
I guess it's also possible that he writes stuff on an impartial basis, without an ulterior motivation.
You, sir, are writing from behind a pseudonym. Should we attach any more credibility to what you write than Sean Newsom?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
Latchigo, you say:
"so there is possibly a drink or two in it for him if they get a mention."
And possibly not. Do you know Sean Newsom? I don't.
I guess it's also possible that he writes stuff on an impartial basis, without an ulterior motivation.
You, sir, are writing from behind a pseudonym. Should we attach any more credibility to what you write than Sean Newsom? |
I will leave people to make up their own minds as to which journalists are getting a bung.
A journalist who writes on travel, motoring, wine etc. is in a position to put business in the direction of a particular company and - equally important - to stop business going there.
The Times wine correspondent regularly tells people to run out and buy a particular bottle. She boasts about her ability to clear shelves. You then get nitwits writing in to complain that they go to their local supermarket and the place is out of stock.
Anyone who can put cash in coffers will get favours. That happens to a buyer for the smallest company. It is the way of the world.
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Latchigo, as they're all just biased freeloaders, maybe we should all just get out there and test every item and service available to purchase on the market for ourselves 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Gah I was about to ask you if you would pay for me to go on lots of holidays and report back to you which ones were worth it...Looks like I missed out there! 
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| kuwait_ian wrote: |
| He mentions Vaujany which is so quiet that it doesn't actually have any pistes on it's side of the valley AFAIK. |
I've skied down to Vaujany on pistes so it must have some. I don't remember them being quiet and l'Alpe d'Huez can never be said to be that quiet as even mid-week it is frequented by some of the 150,000 students who live in nearby Grenoble.
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You know it makes sense.
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davidof, You are quite right. There are a couple of low level runs down from Vaujany to the bottom of the valley. Only useable with very good snow. There are no other pistes around or above the village itself according to the piste map. Tis a while since I went there. Memory not what it was.....
As you probably know, it was the original sleepy hollow until EDF built a pumped storage reservoir in the valley and gave the Commune shed loads of money as compensation. They decided to spend it on what was then a world class cable car to link over towards Alpe D and otherwise to leave the area relatively undeveloped. Sensible people.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Latchigo wrote: |
Pay no attention to any such articles.
They are mostly written by freeloaders with double-barrelled names.
The links are mainly holiday companies, so there is possibly a drink or two in it for him if they get a mention.
Or maybe you should do your own research and take these articles with a pinch of salt ?
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That's what everyone already does. Paying "no attention to any such articles" as the writers are "freeloaders with double-barrelled names", is just ever so slightly overstated and rather unhelpful don't you think? Don't disbelieve everything you read in the papers. Even when off the mark most articles point you to where you can at least pick up the scent.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Last one was a bald feller
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Well, that'll certainly mean his articles must be a load of twaddle then. Useful pointer. Any more hints on how to identify less than wholly objective journalism?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
Last one was a bald feller
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Well, that'll certainly mean his articles must be a load of twaddle then. Useful pointer. Any more hints on how to identify less than wholly objective journalism? |
pam w That merely saves naming him. Regular readers will know who I mean.
pam w eh ? Older woman from Hampshire ? Daily Mail reader ? I'd let your husband worry about the skiing decisions 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Latchigo, just got back after a day out and I see you're still at it!
If you want to expose corrupt journalism I'm all for it, but start by proving it. And have the decency to accept that a journalist is honorable, unless you've evidence to the contrary - it's not very gentlemanly.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
pam w eh ? Older woman from Hampshire ? Daily Mail reader ? I'd let your husband worry about the skiing decisions
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Yes, you've clearly mastered the making of assumptions and generalisations and not allowing yourself to get bogged down in the tedium of evidence and facts. It must make life a lot simpler. So far you have not come up with any response or comment on the content of the article itself. My gripe is that, despite the title, it doesn't actually come up with many quiet, small, lesser known resorts. But it does give the very good advice to book at the last minute and get discounts, so TOs can't be too thrilled with that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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As far as I'm concerned it's a rotten piece of writing, La Rosiere isn't even mentioned, therefore the article is of no value what so ever.
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Latchigo, as I said above I don't know Sean Newsom. And, no, I'm not motivated by anything except pointing snowHeads to a bit of reading that may or may not be useful.
I see nothing in Sean Newsom's article to support your thinly-veiled insinuations of bribery, from your added veil of a pseudonym.
If a journalist makes an objective impartial assessment of a range of products or services (do we have any reason to assume that he's done anything else?) and people go out and "clear the shelves" or book all recommended ski holidays that does not imply that the journalist in question has accepted, or will accept, gifts.
Tell you what - why don't you reveal your real name at this juncture? And then kindly stop insulting people.
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David@traxvax, doesn't mention Serre Chevalier either and it's as very peaceful outside French holidays. As this
shows.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Someone thats even more bored than me, probably.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And theres me thinking he was about the give the game away..... I'm relieved...!!
IMV not much in-depth knowledge here and most discerning snowheads might think what on earth is he on about.
I would call it a rather bland bit of work knocked up with a modicum of research to fill a brief..!!
Not anything wrong in that, its just not that informative....!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| JT wrote: |
I would call it a rather bland bit of work knocked up with a modicum of research to fill a brief..!!
Not anything wrong in that, its just not that informative....!! |
Exactly! Nothing wrong with the advice that quiet pistes can be found by going to smaller resorts which aren't frequented by the tourist hordes. It's just that none of those smaller resorts were mentioned in the article. If he had come up with a couple of names of ski stations that none of us here on snowHeads had ever heard of that would be some pretty good detective work. Perhaps we should expect a greater level of research from a newspaper with the level of resources that the Sunday Times has?
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I'd agree with that specific criticism, which is very different from making unfounded insinuations on a journalist's integrity. On the Sunday Times some years ago we did a big analysis of historic snow reports, using a commissioned research assistant, to short-list the most snow-reliable ski resorts.
Of course, the fact that masses of people are now getting free access to a newspaper's reports is cutting into the sales revenues that facilitate research, so there's a major issue as to how journalism is to be funded. There's a risk that the revenue balance will swing towards advertising.
One of the Sunday Times's most important journalistic investigations - rather more important than anything to do with skiing - was into the drug Thalidomide, which resulted in babies being born with disastrous deformities. This investigation was ordered by their then editor Harold Evans (who also co-wrote the seminal book 'We Learned to Ski').
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You know it makes sense.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Of course, the fact that masses of people are now getting free access to a newspaper's reports is cutting into the sales revenues that facilitate research, so there's a major issue as to how journalism is to be funded. There's a risk that the revenue balance will swing towards advertising. |
I thought that was already the case. Years ago, they worked out that without advertising we'd be paying in the region of £8 for our daily paper.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Brilliant! I love seeing hackles being raised.
A few years back the Independent made big play of being the only national newspaper that refused to accept free or subsidised trips of any kind from airlines, travel companies, resorts, etc. And it showed - their coverage was much more objective, and they were would often make valid criticisms while their rivals showered liberal praise on any gift horse whose mouth they could avoid looking into.
As I live in the wild west of the UK, I know don't know many journalists. But those that I have met place great value on their 'free' annual family holidays that are paid for by a few glowing words in the weekly travel suplement.
Myself, I rarely read the travel pages these days; the word 'advertorial' seems to sum up too much of the content. I pay far more attention to the views of my fellow  than to some freeloading journo.
And if that upsets you, David Goldsmith, I'm sorry. It's just that life's to short to spend investigating which writers have integrity.
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Poster: A snowHead
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In this week's Sunday Times, Clarkson reckons he had to haggle the price of his new Merc up, to prevent them giving him a huge discount because he's a journalist.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Jonny, on the contrary, I would have thought you're voicing the concerns of many - the difference is that you haven't linked what you're concerned about to a named journalist.
I've felt for years that any review should clearly state if the writer has received, free, any goods or services mentioned in an article - whether it's a theatre criticism, bottle of wine, ski holiday, or 'free lunch'. Conversely, if the writer has paid for his own holiday, that can also be clearly declared!
If newspapers complain that their pages will then be filled with 'declarations of interest', then they can fill their websites with this info as a reference source. Could make interesting reading!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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David Goldsmith, I haven't linked my criticisms to any named journalist because, as you say, I don't have access to the relevant information. In the meantime, I cry, 'A plague on both your houses!' and rely on alternative sources. All Snowheads know that this web site and books like Where to Ski and Snowboard provide a much higher standard of objective information than most newspapers' travel sections. If you dared to publish lies here to support a corporate sponsor, you'd soon be shot down in flames - as a few freeloading wannabe advertisers have found over the years!
I'm realistic enough to know that I can't buy several hundred broadsheet pages for £1.50 without a big stash of corporate sponsorship to bring the price down. Just don't expect me to place any value on the things that I read outside the mainstream news reporting section... and even that's coloured pretty heavily by the proprietor's business interests.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
I've felt for years that any review should clearly state if the writer has received, free, any goods or services mentioned in an article - whether it's a theatre criticism, bottle of wine, ski holiday, or 'free lunch'. Conversely, if the writer has paid for his own holiday, that can also be clearly declared!
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Most resorts are wise to journalist freeloaders and certainly big resorts, like Courchevel, won't give anything, not even a lift pass except for special events. Having worked on research for a couple of pieces for Sunday Travel sections I suspect that most get written by someone in London whose research has been posting to a few forums (such as here) on the week before publication. I'm not saying that is the case here but out of maybe 52 pieces written in a year I doubt a quarter are actually researched on the ground. The Sunday Times and Times seem to be particuarly heavy users of Internet content for their news in general.
You also have to realise that advertisers and ski resorts make a huge fuss if you say anything negative. One journalist, at the Independent, who wrote something that Val d'Isère didn't like was summoned down to the resort in person by the Tourist Office (by Jane Jacquemod I believe, their fearsome English press officer) to explain himself.
Still I remember Chris Gill in a piece about the best restaurants in the Alps said of "The Chalet du Lac Besson" that the food was great but there was no view. I asked Fabienne whether she'd given Mr Gill a free lunch for this comment. Oh no, she said, Mr Gill paid his own meal and was very discreet, he never mentioned that he was a journalist.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've been to the Chalet du Lac Besson and it's lovely, it doesn't need to bribe journalists. Only problem is due to a bit of incompetence in my french films knowledge, I told everyone that holiday that it was owned by the famous director of The Fifth Element  ...oops!
In terms of general ski journalism I have to say that I could certainly write 90% of the advertorial bullsh|t that fills the pages of all the ski magazines without getting off my sofa in front of the telly, so why wouldn't a journalist do the same? The Sunday Times and FT pieces I've read in the last few years fall into a similar category....just brochure stuff, or who the journalist met while in some fancy restaurant etc etc. Maybe skiing is just too internal, too personal, and just doesn't lend itself to great writing like some sports do?
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| davidof wrote: |
You also have to realise that advertisers and ski resorts make a huge fuss if you say anything negative.
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Quite, I was reading a recent issue of Powder and there's very little apparently that's not "awesome" or that doesn't "rock". It's become a glorified photo' album, but at least they're great photo's.
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| Plake wrote: |
| In terms of general ski journalism I have to say that I could certainly write 90% of the advertorial bullsh|t that fills the pages of all the ski magazines without getting off my sofa in front of the telly, so why wouldn't a journalist do the same? |
One Journalist told me that very few people, maybe 1 in 50 who buy the paper, actually read the travel section of Sunday Papers so it is considered filler for recycling bins. I notice that the new
tabloid newspapers seem to end a lot of articles with : see www.sunday-times.co.uk/blah/travel/skivertorial08309483.html
maybe they could save the bother of a web site and just end their short filler pieces with:
see: www.google.com?search="resorts with quiet pistes"
:-)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Frosty the Snowman,
LOL! and ski that red run over for one..!!
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If one has a chalet in Val d'Isere, surely one already has a butler, valet, or gentleman's gentleman. After all one has to get one's priorities right, or standards will slip.
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