 Poster: A snowHead
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wish I could spell....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Court judgement was discussed here in a thread rather quirkily closed by a mod, on the grounds that this thread existed, even though it was over a month since the last post appeared.
Anyway, the judgement itself is reported here and appears fair and reasonable.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I also don't understand why anyone would think the TO would have any responsibility in this. If anyone is at fault it's the instructor. He is french, so assuming membership of his syndicate (there are 2 - 1 for ESF and 1 for ESI) he will have 'responsibilité civile' insurance to cover just such incidents. I cannot imagine that the TO would have had any control over which group a client was put in. I'm sorry for this guy, and I don't agree that he should have bear responsibility himself. He was with an instructor - we are responsible for your lives while you're skiing with us - IT'S THAT SIMPLE.
having said all that, I often find students don't think they're up to something when they actually are, and they have to be bullied/cajoled/persuaded to try whatever it is. Afterwards they get a big boost in confidence at having managed it. Part of our job is to push the envelope just enough, and that sometimes involves doing thins the student might not like the look of. However I'm speaking as a very cautious instructor having only had 6 people stretchered off the mountain in 35 years ... I do know of at least one ESF instructor who has at least 1 a week. 
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easiski, Good feedback!
You missed a point the TO was snowbizz and they would appear to 'run' the ski-school for their clients in PSV - apparently 'replacing' the ESF office function as it were rather than just sub-contracting. Therefore I would guess they would have a larger 'duty of care' to the client than the classic TO / School relationship
I can only relate as a punter - There's certainly been times when I've 'backedout' of going down runs that I thought were reckless/dangerous. Yes as an improving beginner I need pushing but in my case the instructor was being reckless (IMHO) in pushing us too far. Ironically enough this involved off-piste in 3v through a tightly wooded area and I didn't feel I had the control to be able to avoid crashing into trees, and therefore I took the decision / responsibility for my own safety and took the decision to back out and ski down the piste to the side of the section the instructor wanted to take us down. Whilst clearly this was not the same venue as this unfortunate incident it does sound quite similar to the circumstances surrounding Mr. Andersons accident, and assuming there was 'an alternate' route - surely no adult should just follow 'blindly' their instructor without considering their own capabilities? I know that should a situation like this occurr to me in the future I would do the same again.
Clearly everyone will be double checking their insurance policies before the start of the season, and no doubt premiums for the Instructors, Schools and TO's will rise as a result...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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bertie bassett, Yes - I saw that, but I still don't think the TO would be responsible. If they sub-contract instructors from the ESF (which Mark Warner do here), then it would still be the instructors who decided who went in which class, therefore out of the hands of the TO. However there was a little comment about being persuaded by another bloke in the chalet/hotel .... so it looks like a certain amount of bravado might have been involved - testosterone strikes again!! (of course this is all speculation). I know the sort of experience you had does happen, it's a shame and it brings our profession into disrepute, but well done for saying no.
Yoda, I take all my people off piste if possible, even beginners. If the slope is suitable there's no reason why they shouldn't ski it - you can snow plough turn in most places. It also teaches them to be softer on their skis and wait for the ski to work etc. Of course terrain selection is key. 
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easiski, I agree that with proper choice of terrain there's no technical reason why not. Another question is what sort of insurance a "3 week" skier would have - would it cover off-piste even with an instructor for example? I seem to recall just buying insurance on the basis of price when at that stage in my skiing career.
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mmm, reading the article it states he was badly paired with a skier of 13 years experience....now [much as i feel for the chap] i would bet that he was the one who wanted to be in that group
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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There's no point commenting until the judge rules.
But I think we all know how it will end.
No win, no fee, no common sense. Don't ya love it? 
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Yoda, that is a point, but they can usually top up with a carte neige or something in resort if necessary.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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easiski, tour operators are liable for all activities provided as part of a package holiday. If you have an accident because of a dangerous hotel balcony or negligent ski instructor you can still recover from the tour operator. The tour operator can then pursue a claim against the individual responsible if they want to, but the "consumer" does not need to worry about that part.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Lorenzo, That's daft!
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| easiski wrote: |
| Lorenzo, That's daft! |
Perhaps - but this sad tale is recent British case although in this event it relates to the accommodation provided rather than an activity.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I suspect part of the answer is that you sue in the jurisdiction most likely to be friendly to your case, a casual reading of the papers makes me think that English courts are more likely to be sympathetic to this kind of case than French courts, so that's where you sue.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Lorenzo wrote: |
| easiski, tour operators are liable for all activities provided as part of a package holiday. If you have an accident because of a dangerous hotel balcony or negligent ski instructor you can still recover from the tour operator. The tour operator can then pursue a claim against the individual responsible if they want to, but the "consumer" does not need to worry about that part. |
A gross generalisation. Lawyers look at each case on its own merits and decide which parties are the best to go after in terms of getting a result. A UK tour operator is often the one persued simply because there's not much point, for example, in persuing a Bulgarian ski school in Bulgaria - too difficult, too costly and the award would be low. So, people blame the tour operator and tour ops often successfully defend themselves when the true blame is at the hands of someone else. There is also an attitude prevailing that, because a supplier is insured, that success is guaranteed... that simply isn't true and, in any case, no amount of compensation can ever make up for the paralysis etc.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bode Swiller,
Nope, it is not a gross generalisation at all. It is true. They ARE liable for any negligence etc of those who supply the services during the holiday. That does not mean you have to sue them, you can chose to go direct to the responsible party if you want but, as you say, that is usually a lot more expensive and in a foreign court. Why bother?
The regulations are in the link in the post above, if you are interested (!!)
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Lorenzo,
Any chance of shortening the link ? It widens the page on my browser.
Thanks for the info.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Lorenzo, Then the Law is an ass! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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easiski, if your car crashed due to defective design of the brakes you would sue the car maker not the subcontractor who designed and made the brakes. Its the same with Ski holiday companies
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This has just made winter holidays more expensive for everyone. The TP liability insurance for all operators will go up a lot.
You have to ask why this person did not have his own travel insurance.
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bar shaker, Travel insurance only pays out a very small sum for personel injury, most between 10k to 40k
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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if people bother to read the front page, they will see that Snowbizz are unusual in that they run their own ski school
so, it doesn't seem inappropriate to sue them if one of their instructors messes up and this isn't something that will make a big difference to the ski industry as a whole
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| easiski wrote: |
| Lorenzo, Then the Law is an ass! |
easiski, it might be - depending who you are!
The policy behind it is that the "poor" consumer can sue the tour operator in his local court. The "rich" tour operator can then reclaim against the ski school (or whoever else) but would probably have to do that in the foreign court, in the country where the accident happened. The end result is that the negligent party still pays, but the tour operator has to act as "middle man" by paying out and reclaiming. Of course they are all insured, so we all pay for it however indirectly.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think we covered this earlier TBH... Law suits follow the money, and the money is always with whoever is best insured - so a TO not Jean-Luc Bracage
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| easiski wrote: |
| Lorenzo, Then the Law is an ass! |
Not at all.
Makes very good sense and ensures that the individual/consumer can sue the TO in the UK without traipsing off around Europe in order to obtain a remedy.
Actually one of our better (or least more pragmatic laws).
If, under the terms of the contract, the TO contracts to provide a service - it is contractually bound to provide that service (together with the usual terms implied by statute or law).
On the insurance point (not you Easiski), I`ve no idea whether the claimant was in in the present case. But if he were, I suspect his insurance company would be driving the litigation (they would have subrogated rights) and seeking to recover their outlay from the `offending` party.
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There are one or two of us reading this thread who really do know this case inside out. Very few of the rest of you have come close to understanding what happened, others might be wise to better inform themselves before going into print. A couple of you should assume that bad jokes are actually read, in a case such as this one they are really best avoided.
I do warn you not to believe too much of what you may now read in the press about this accident; I say that as a journalist you understand.
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You know it makes sense.
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Paris7, welcome to snowHeads  .
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Thank you Alastair, good to be here.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Paris7, I hope youre not suggesting that we should refrain from incoherent and uniformed discussion on any topic in the public domain that relates vaguely to skiing or indeed anything else for surely as a forum we will wither and die
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Paris7, Welcome to Snowheads, I read both the press articles referenced, but it did not sound in the longer one as though the TO actually operated their own ski school. In any case this would probably be illegal in France. If you know more - please elucidate.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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According to the Snowbizz website they run their own ski school for children and only offer guiding, not tuition, to adult guests.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Good lord no fatbob! One wouldn't want to attempt to stamp out conjecture or discussion, especially about skiing. It was just a hint really. After all, what is the press if not too often manipulated or ill-informed?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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i love it when people come on here, inform us that we don't know the half of it, but fail to provide any further information whatsoever
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Lizzard, indeed but do we know what they were doing at the time of the accident? maybe they cut the adult section of the ski school because it was a risk they no longer wanted to take on
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| According to the Snowbizz website they run their own ski school for children and only offer guiding, not tuition, to adult guests. |
Don't know what website you're looking at: -
"Snowbizz Ski & Snowboarding School - "in the friendly atmosphere of small classes"
1. Owned and managed by Snowbizz
2. Small classes - Beginners to Competition
3. Adults - Mini-Champs - Juniors - Toton - Race training classes
Adults: Ski & Snowboarding Lessons At any ski level, without professional advice or teaching, your learning curve can become stagnant,"
http://www.snowbizz.co.uk/ski-school.htm
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Paris7, You are welcome to snowHeads 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Reading the article and only having only skim read the posts, (must do some work today). Could the skier not have side slipped the part of the piste. When I learnt to ski this was one of skills we were taught once we left the nursery slope.
- It helps edge control
- It was sold to use at the early stage that it can help get us out of trouble
Now not knowing the exact conditions this might not have been possible, when I have spoke to beginner friends this is a skill that not many have been taught. I think it is a valuable skill that once mastered will help with progression when learning edge control skills later on?
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You do have to be very thoroughly qualified to instruct skiing here in France easiski. It has been seen as something of a closed shop, but the French attitude was born out of just too many 'chalet girls' (yes I know but that's what they were called at the time) ski bum boyfriends pitching to innocent punters to earn a bob or six - and getting it horribly wrong.
I think you should read the judgement and assume that His Lordship may not have been a skier, but he learned a very great deal and is most certainly no fool. He knows very well indeed how to get to the bottom of things and is wise. As to the rest I guess that's all just now except to say that Off-Piste is just that, Off-Piste and it had better be treated with a great deal of caution and the respect that any hostile environment deserves. So very many skiers think pisted slopes are nature in the raw and are so lulled that off-piste they simply can't imagine what might be only just under the snow surface. An unpisted, uncleared wooded hillside could well look OK, it may be OK but could very well prove to be lethal.
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FAQ
If true then venturing off-piste into tree areas does seem unusual.
