 Poster: A snowHead
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| davidof wrote: |
| Dave J wrote: |
I think that there is something like this around. Its a sort of balloon/airbag on the end of a piece of rope. |
The avalanche ball looks like a quite interesting extension of the old avalanche cord idea. I was discussing the device with the French importer NIC-Impex on Friday. So far there are no cases of anyone's life being saved thanks to this device but it is not in widespread use. The ball is a collapsable, spring loaded affair. I have some film of tests carried out by the Swiss and in their controlled avalanches the ball does stay on the surface.
However if we look at accident statitics for last year for France of the 4 people found thanks to visual clues only one was recovered alive. The figure for avalanche transceivers is 42% (5 out of 12 deaths) and this is much better than waiting for a probe or dog search. So statistically an avalanche transceiver is a good idea - but then statistically you have a fair chance of dying in an avalanche anyway.
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Rather odd, the Swiss report I posted above doesn't agree with this at all.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Ise
Have dug around and allthough I cant find a picture it seems to work like this. The ball on a rope is a sort of drogue. You keep it reasonably handy (tucked into the neck of the wearers jacket for instance) so that if caught in an avalanche you can throw it away from you. It is attached to a rucksack on the wearers back containing an airbag. The drag on the ball activates a cannister in the rucksack that inflates the airbag and in theory keeps the victim on the surface.
The long and short of all this is that it is nothing like an avalanche cord - 
The Avalung 2 looks a better bit of thread drift!!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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These things are quite popular here in Switzerland, it's the sort of thing that appeals to the Swiss mind I suspect, SLF seem to like them as I read their website. The figures are telling though, as I recall 75% of people that leave a surface trail on burial live, median recover time is 10mins and that's why of course, you get found in under the median survival time for burials which is around 11mins.
The place I buy stuff from has some items : http://www.baechli-bergsport.ch/default.asp but FaceWest may have some stuff as well. Personally, these are toys we don't have, we've some Ortovox F1's and, recently, Tracker DTS along with the usual probes and shovels etc. I'm intrigued with the ABS stuff though and the avalungs. You'll see Dynafit have some stuff integrated into sacks at around 1000chf, pricey though 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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What is an
'Avalanche ball naxo'
Is that like an avalanche cord?
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 20-01-05 14:28; edited 3 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Dave J
I went through the same thought process this year and decided to buy a transceiver for the occasions when I would have hired. ( Having got it for the extra cost in batteries I may well end up wearing it on-piste as well as off. ) However I now realise that this purchase is just the start, I now have shovels, probes, training and companions who are similarily equipped on my list of safety equipment.
I'm also now wondering if the avalung makes a sensible addition.
For the amount of time I normally spend off-piste I'm not sure if this is sensible safety or paranoia.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Dave J wrote: |
Ise
Have dug around and allthough I cant find a picture it seems to work like this. The ball on a rope is a sort of drogue. You keep it reasonably handy (tucked into the neck of the wearers jacket for instance) so that if caught in an avalanche you can throw it away from you. It is attached to a rucksack on the wearers back containing an airbag. The drag on the ball activates a cannister in the rucksack that inflates the airbag and in theory keeps the victim on the surface.
The long and short of all this is that it is nothing like an avalanche cord - :oops:
The Avalung 2 looks a better bit of thread drift!! |
You are confusing two different systems.
The gas cannister activated system is the Avalanche Airbag System (Avalanche ABS). It is activated by a handle on the right shoulder, this inflates two 30-40 liter sacks on the side of the rucksack. This provides extra bouyancy keeping the victim on or close to the surface of the slide. There are a few points. The wearer may not be able to reach the activation handle, the system may malfunction, the airbags may actually cause the victim to slide on the surface of the snow - a bad thing if there are cliffs or trees, despite being kept close to the surface of the snow the victim may still be buried, or be buried by a secondary slide. That aside the device is currently the best improvement in avalanche safety around and has been used successfully.
The device with the small ball attached to the back of the rucksack is the Avalanche Ball which is an extension of the avalanche cord idea. The ball is a spring loaded canvas device attached to a 6 meter cord. The advantage over a cord is that the ball provides more bouyancy. This gives a clear visual clue to the whereabouts of the victim. You simple have to follow the cord until you are vertically above the victim. The cord is strong enough and thin enough to cut through avalanche debris. The disadvantage is that you are still buried and as I mentioned above, if you are buried deeply your chances of survival are thin. The device is actuated by a handle but no gas is involved.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 20-01-05 9:00; edited 1 time in total
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| ise wrote: |
Rather odd, the Swiss report I posted above doesn't agree with this at all. |
I'm not sure what you mean.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| davidof wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
Rather odd, the Swiss report I posted above doesn't agree with this at all. |
I'm not sure what you mean. |
In which case I presume you're not reading what the Swiss say then.
| Quote: |
| However if we look at accident statitics for last year for France of the 4 people found thanks to visual clues only one was recovered alive. |
The Swiss report shows survival chances found by visible parts as "very high(85%)" Your sample of only 4 suggests 25%.
| Quote: |
| The figure for avalanche transceivers is 42% (5 out of 12 deaths) and this is much better than waiting for a probe or dog search. |
The Swiss figure for this is 51%, better but not as good with visible parts. They describe this as "not as encouraging". Incidentally, they reference other research that confirms this.
The overall conclusions in the reports are very, very clear, your best chance is when there's a visible indicator. They conclude that the Avalanche Airbag offers the best chance of survival.
Their figures scream out why this is the case :
1. Median burial time for locations via visible parts was 10mins.
2. Median burial time for locations via transceivers was 20mins.
3. Median burial time for all surviving, completely buried people is 11mins.
This would rather seem to disagree with your comments. The difference is clear though, you're looking a one years raw figures and making extrapolations that the limited dataset won't support, the Swiss report I posted is an analysis of data from many years.
It's pretty obvious from the report that effectiveness of transceivers is on an upward curve, better training and technology being the obvious causes. No improvement is going to alter survival chances when located by visible means though.
This tells us nothing we didn't know already, survival chances are greatest if you're located with ten minutes and the quickest location is via visible markers which most of us would expect.
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Dave J, can you edit that link a bit shorter ? It's making the page hard to read.
[ u r l = http : / / etc etc ] text [ / u r l ]
works, just take out the spaces
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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ise
No, I cant for some reason. The URL has a couple of [ and ] in which means I can only put in the link to the home page and not direct to the product.
But it might be that I am technologically challenged as well.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I see, it's a bit techie but you can use escape sequences, do
[ is %5b
] is %5d
works for me
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Third time lucky 
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You know it makes sense.
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Dave J
A search for "K2 Avalanche Ball" using Google seems to find some reviews and couple of American shops selling a similiar product.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ise wrote: |
This would rather seem to disagree with your comments. The difference is clear though, you're looking a one years raw figures and making extrapolations that the limited dataset won't support, the Swiss report I posted is an analysis of data from many years.
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I suggest you try reading and understanding my original post before accusing me of making extrapolations that the limited dataset won't support.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| davidof wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
This would rather seem to disagree with your comments. The difference is clear though, you're looking a one years raw figures and making extrapolations that the limited dataset won't support, the Swiss report I posted is an analysis of data from many years.
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I suggest you try reading and understanding my original post before accusing me of making extrapolations that the limited dataset won't support. |
 Oh come on, you can't pretend not to understand the point.
| Quote: |
| However if we look at accident statitics for last year for France of the 4 people found thanks to visual clues only one was recovered alive. The figure for avalanche transceivers is 42% (5 out of 12 deaths) and this is much better than waiting for a probe or dog search. So statistically an avalanche transceiver is a good idea - but then statistically you have a fair chance of dying in an avalanche anyway. |
You've taken the figures for one year, then claimed it's statistically valid. It's not, one years figures for only 4 cases is not enough basis for any sort of analysis. Nothing to do with skiing, avalanches, mountains, just maths.
A real analysis over many years data (2301 peole, 894 avalanches, 20 yrs) shows 85% survival for recoveries based on visual indicators. In fact, the figure in practice is probably higher for several reasons. First, some non-fatal incidents won't have been reported. Second, some fatalities will have been for initial traumatic injury. Third, some recoveries will have been delayed, for example if the observer is injured etc. The same applies to transceiver recoveries of course.
While we're about it:
| Quote: |
| but then statistically you have a fair chance of dying in an avalanche anyway. |
maybe and maybe you have some actual statistics to support this or you're applying some massively restricting factor to the data (like total burial). I do happen have some figures for this.
Between 1980 and 2000, 2301 people in 894 incidents were recorded in Switzerland, 523 people(23%) dead and 1778 alive (77%). so, statistically, if caught in an avalanche you have more than a fair chance of not dying. Limiting the data to complete burials you've a survival chance of around 50% which people may or may not think is a "fair chance".
The conclusions of the Swiss Federal Institue for Snow and Avalanche Research are really clear and I'm going to post them, it's something well worth reading for those not interested in the full report:
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7. CONCLUSIONS
If one is caught by an avalanche one has the greatest chances of survival if one is not, or only partly, buried. In the case of total burial, the survival chances are best if parts of the body or equipment is visible on the avalanche surface. Companion help is very effective. In latter years, the more frequent success of transceiver search has contributed to a positive development. The favorable development in organized rescue actions can be explained by the broad distribution of modern communication technology (mobile phones, radio sets) and by fast and professional rescue actions (helicopter, rescue services). Currently, out of the proven technical devices, the avalanche airbag provides the greatest chances of survival in avalanche incident. However, despite all positive developments and modern technical devices, one must never tolerate any avalanche incident - if only because of the enormous risk of severe injury. |
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Mesk1
Check this out for an account of an avalanche victim that survived due to using an avalung.
Dave
Link should work now.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 21-01-05 16:21; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Dave J
Thanks, Had a couple of problems with the link but got there with a tweak. It appears to be one of the only pieces of kit that may potentially increase survivability rather than just facilitate rescue / recovery.
I can't remember seeing anyone using one so I'm still not sure. Maybe it's like hemet usage slow to start but will gather momentum.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Opps... sorry about my duplicate post.... didn't noticed we'd moved onto page two...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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After reading a few reports about the Avalung I think I'll definately get one before my next trip !
If you've got good hearing and happen to be the searcher a mobile phone might be easier to use than a transceiver... just call up your lost mate and listen out for a ring under the snow 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I know this subject has been done to death but............................ I have been lurking for some time and this thread has finally got me to sign up.
I will not ski, even on nursery slopes, without transceiver, probe and shovel. As it happens, I cannot ski without a probe anyway because my poles convert into a probe, thus keeping the weight down. The following story is why and I hope this will make you adopt the same policy.
The event happened in Val D'Isere about 15 years ago. There had been a fair amount fo snowfall over the previous few days but the advalanche risk haddropped to 3/5 (still high enough). There was poor visability but it was not snowing. I was travelling up a lift (I think its called Monte Blanc) and heard a slab let go not far from me. I caught a glimse of 2 skiers moving with the snow and then saw no more. About 2 minutes later I reached the top and informed the lift attendent what i had seen and skied off in the general direction. I found a boarder in great distress because her boyfriend was buried. She had no transceiver but he had. As i was not skiing off piste that day I had no equipement with me so I left her there and skied down for help. I managed to get back to the site of the slide about 15 minutes later and still beat the piste patrol. Then, by luck, a guide I knew skied by with a group. I stopped him and he started a search immediately but noticed one of his group had skied on. As I couldn't help I agreed to catch up with his group member and tell them what was going on. I skied off but never found the guide's client (although he was OK) so i ended up at the bottom and saw no point in returning.
That night I learnt they had found the victim, barely alive, about a metre from the surface. He died 3 days later. There was lots of talk as to the fact that he had been buried for over 25 minutes before the search even began and I wondered at the time if the outcome had been different if I had been wearing my transceiver and had a shovel.
Unfortunate, you may think, but of course I will never know. The thing that really makes the story haunt me is that 3 weeks later, back in the UK, I find that somebody I had known for over 10 years had been kiled in an avalanche in Val D'Isere on that day. Andy's death was the only one in VDI that week. I have had nightmares about 2 things following this - digging out somebody I know and about how I would have felt if I had known it was Andy burried and I could do nothing. Luckily for me, on the day i didn't recognise his girlfiend although I knew her.
Since then I always wear a transceiver and carry the right equipment. I would hope that others would do so as well. Statistics show that the average response time of rescue services in France is 45 minutes and therefore the best bet of getting out alive is search by nearby people, either your own goup or those who happen to be around.
As for those who advocate Recco, dream on. If it takes an average of 45 minutes to get the search gear there, all you can expect to find id a body. If you ski off piste make sure you have the right equipment and that the rest of your team has it as well. Make sure everybody knows how to use it. Used properly a single person search should take no more than 5 minutes to locate where to start digging/probing. Practice, practice, practice. The life of a friend might depend on it.
Sorry for such a long first post, but it is a subject close to my heart.
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Simon, welcome to snowHeads and thanks for the input to this thread.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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SimonN, welcome to snowHeads 
I don't quite know what to say following that post, and can't imagine how you felt. It just goes to show, if you have the equipment, then carry it with you.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Thanks for the welcome. I have been really impressed with the site and should have joined ages ago. I guess the combination of a thread close to my heart, metres of fresh falling at long last and the first gym session to get me fit for skking in a few weeks time (better late than never!) finally got me to sign up!
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SimonN, I absolutely agree. We had a discussion about this a while ago - there were various people who thought Recco and avalanche dogs were great, unfortunately none of these things can always arrive soon enough, so you have to be self-sufficient and be able to dig your friend out yourself rather than wait for help. Like you I always carry all the gear.
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You know it makes sense.
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SimonN
Sorry about your friend.
But thanks for posting that. Time to invest in my own gear I think.
Dave
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I agree with the comment about recco, I think that it's just a bit of a marketing gimmick.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Slightly off-topic, but skiing with rob@rar and kuwait ian on the Villaroger side of the Les Arcs domain today, we were very surprised at the number of (mainly) boarders going off-piste, despite the prominent warnings of the very high avalanche risk (see snowNews for further details).
I spoke to the Les Arcs director of piste security an hour back and he was dumbfounded that so many people could happily ignore all the signs pointing out the extreme danger of avalanche; the high risk was due to the classical combination of a heavy fall of snow on a rock-hard, thin layer of old snow. Risk factor 5 - the black flag - may be imposed tomorrow.
If people ignore the warnings, we'll end up with off-piste being banned before long.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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SimonN, welcome to Snowheads and thanks for taking the time to enter that post - if you have convinced just one more person to carry their gear with them, you've made a difference.
PG, ugh - idiots... although, given the amount of snow in the past few days I would have expected the risk level to have been at 5 anyway (but 4 is bad enough).
Cheers
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm no expert - sticking to pistes at the moment - but I was always under the impression that you don't venture off-piste on a 4 or 5 warning. I guess its just something that can't be enforced....
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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mountain mad, sensible people do not venture off piste if the risk is above 3 but sadly there are an awful lot of stupid people out there 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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A quote made by Wayne Watson of Alpine Experience in Val D'Isere about the powder frenzie yesterday
"People just don't get it do they? There were tracks everywhere and places that scare the poo-poo out of us in these conditions being treated with no respect whatsoever"
This about sums it up. The problem is that modern skis allow people to ski stuff that 10 years ago they weren't technically competent enough to ski.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Skied In La Plagne last week and must have had a metre of snow at Bellecote as it has been snowing for about a week now...and counting.
A friend got covered completely just off a drag lift and I face-planted and had to headbutt the snow twice and then spit out the snow in my mouth which was an eye-opener so I have no qualms about using a bleep, shovel and probe anywhere that the conditions warrant it. Also, in LP the avalanche level was 4 most of the week.
SimonN,
This is very true, snowboaders used to be the worst as they could get off-piste very quickly in their learning curve. Unfortunately fats make skiers just as guilty now.
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Speaking as an ex leather boot and cable binding skier.... On second thoughts cancel that.
Top put in my pennyworth:
I doubt I would wear a transceiver if I only skied on piste, but since I ski about 80% off piste I always have the full kit, even when avalanche risk is low, as it was when I was in an avalanche (those who already read about it ignore this link).
Certainly we were skiing mostly off piste last week after the first snows (mostly with a guide but also without on saturday). However it was mostly among the trees and a little on gentle slopes among scattered bushes. The upper slopes had, in any case, been stripped by the wind.
I hope Cedric felt we were safe.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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On the subject of the Recco system as far as I'm aware these are next to useless for survival. The use of the system depends on the resort having the big bulky equipment needed to search for Recco tags which a) not all resorts have and b) takes a long time to get to the avalanche spot. In addition if the Recco tag is 'obscures' from the searcher it will not be picked up. I'be hear them called corpse finders a few times though..
As far as wearing transceivers I figure now I've got one I might as well wear it all the time I'm riding. I mean why not - it's not like it gets in the way. In the book 'Avalanche Safety for Skiers, Snowboarders and Climbers- Daffern' an incident is described where a group of skiers are hiking up to a lift from the carpark - no distance at all by all account a small slide gives way - if they didn't have their transceivers on there was agood chance a guy buried could have suffocated.
Another point how often do you go riding/skiing and strictly force y'self to stay on piste? I know if I see some good off-piste I'm gonna want to hit it...
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Off to St Anton for a two-week trip in a few weeks time with the intention of getting a lot more experience off-piste. I am therefore seriously considering getting a transciever. Any recommendations?
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FAQ
