 Poster: A snowHead
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There's some ski-ing in today's Observer:
Ski properties in Tuscany A short article on buying property in the Val di Luce, close to the Abetone ski area which is around 1.5 hours drive from Pisa airport, according to the AA.
Ski-ing in Romania A short review of a holiday in Poiana Brasov, near the castle of Count Dracula! Features paint balling as an Apres ski activity.
Some price comparisons Some price comparisons between Serbia, Bulgaria, Slovenia and Zermatt. Zermatt works out roughly twice as expensive in most areas except for ski and boot hire where the premium is less 25% in Zermatt.
Martin Bell's Ski Clinic snowHead Martin Bell  sings the praises of British run ski schools across the Alps.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Notice I didn't get a mention in Martin Bell's list!!! Never do (not only MB) - not enough publicity and not enough stiffing clients! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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That's completely out of order, easiplug.
Why the Hell should Bell be obliged to be your publicity agent?
Cheer up!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, I didn't know there was a SCGB list of preferred ski schools ( though I will go and have a look). But part of the problem is the overall package. For example, I am looking for a brush-up course of instruction in January - and I'll be on my own. Ian McGarry used to run a group course tied in with accommodation at his chalet at Chatel. Worked very well for me, as did a powder course at Argentiere with the SCGB - accommodation for single skiers no problem. I could go to Argentiere again, but I'd rather go somewhere new. So the Warren Smith deal looks a possibility. Moreover, there will be group courses available if I book on the right times. Looking at your site, it's not crystal clear that I can be guaranteed a group place if I book a specific week - and, remembering Les 2 Alpes (admittedly a long time ago) I'm not that sure that I could find accommodation easily as a singleton.
So. Part of your problem, from a punter viewpoint, is marketing. I am sure I could find all these things is I emailed and scouted around. But others hand it to me on a plate. OTOH, one thing you have got going for you is street cred, courtesy of what snowheads think of you  . So if I am missing something, and I could join a group and stay somewhere - please let me know 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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easiski, by all means pour out your business woes to a sympathetic community, but I still don't understand what this has to do with Martin Bell.
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Nick Zotov, The SCGB doesn't have a list of preferred ski schools but it does have a list of discounts offered to members. It seems that this year they never sent me the form, so I'm off the list, but according to Graham N on the LDA pages they list ski schools but not me. I'm on the Tourist Office list, and come first on the default web listing for the Tourist Office website, so how come I'm not on there? No-one else in LDA offers SCGB members any discount at all.
I take your point, and agree that it's much harder for me to organise the sort of groups you describe. Accommodation is no problem at all however. I definitely relate to your problems as a single skier. What I do is much more personal. I have some ideas, so if you'd like to email me at home I can explain - I don't want to be accused of using snowheads to promote my business shamelessly (which I try hard not to do). I do
David Goldsmith, It's not business woes really - I have too much work most of the time anyway - I just find it slightly annoying that whenever British Instructors.schools are mentioned I'm never included! I know this is because I don't promote myself to journalists and so on, but I'm surprised that they don't do any research either! The list of ski schools was probably from The Observer anyway, so I didn't mean to insult Martin - it was meant to be tongue in cheek you know!
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easiski, you're in the "good ski and snowboard guide"!!!!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski, thanks, I'll drop you a line.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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easiski, my apologies. Space is always very limited; in fact in theory I am only allocated 200 words per week. That list did actually originate with me - in a way; there were five other British ski-teaching organisations that ended up being cut from my original list - some of which I rate more highly than some of the ones that did remain in the article! (I know that won't make you feel any better. Once again, I apologise.) Yes, it's a shame that sometimes it's those who can play the PR game rather than the best that get the recognition.
It's a common dilemma for writers. Do you "overwrite", trying to mention as many people as possible, but knowing that there's a chance that some of it will be cut? (And that you'll have no control over the "cutting"?)
Or do you write precisely to the word count, guaranteeing that what you write will stay in? (But denying yourself the space to mention everyone who deserves it?)
easiski, it's great that you're mentioned in GSSG. If you email me at martinbellskicamps@hotmail.com (listing your qualifications/attributes), I can certainly forward your email to the person in charge of the news pages at Daily Mail Ski and Snowboard. Looking at your website, yes your prices and group sizes do look very competitive, and I imagine that's the message that you need to get across. No guarantees; I am not the final arbiter on who gets in and who doesn't, but no point in not trying. (At this stage, space in the remaining issues to be published starts to get squeezed.)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Martin Bell, Thanks Martin, I'll write as you suggested. No need to apologise - it's normal!!!
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David Goldsmith, A bit harsh that on Easiski. From a conversation that I overheard recently I know that Easiski and PG are quite concerned that they not be seen to be profiting from Snowheads. Personal experience is of Easiski helping me out with no benefit to her whatsoever.
At the risk of inflaming a resolved issue, pick on someone your own size.
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You know it makes sense.
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Martin Bell, I have nowhere near your experience , knowledge or skills and I enjoy your contributions here and to other media but one of your assertions about British ski schools in that article is inaccurate and incorrect. I know that one of the schools mentioned on your list does not employ 'only instructors who hold the top level of certification'. Determined operators find ways around even the 'staunchest' rules and bureaucracy - even in France.
They are also ridiculously pricey - whilst I could never argue with your other points that one is simply inaccurate .
I would name them here , but that would need me to expose how I know - and that isn't going to happen on a public forum I'm afraid.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Cymru am Byth, yup, judging by her note above to me, I think that's fair.
easiski, email sent to address on your website.
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Poster: A snowHead
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eEvans, you'll see that I did use the words "tend to" (glad they weren't cut out!) Obviously I can't guarantee that every single UK-owned ski school uses no-one but BASI 1's, short of going around them all and asking to see their certificates.
Still, I would argue that the proportion of higher-qualifed instructors is almost always higher with the small UK-owned schools than with the larger, established ones. One exception is of course Interski, which is an an invaluable asset for giving Alpine-based experience to trainee British instructors.
I didn't mention the reason, which is (I believe) that very few British-owned schools in France are "accredited training centres" and therefore cannot employ trainee instructors. (This understanding dates back a couple of years so anyone with recent experience, please let me know if things have changed.)
If you wish to pass on any information confidentially, please PM me via this forum or email me at martinbellskicamps@hotmail.com . I will guarantee not to "reveal my sources" - hopefully not ending up like this poor woman:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/06/reporters.contempt/
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Martin Bell, Yes I did cut out the qualification , I'll make a lawyer one day ! Apologies!
AFAIK the 'training centre' rules still exist, I just happen to know how one of those companies circumvents them.
I'll pm you ..
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Martin Bell, As I understand it the ESF union (FFS) are trying to get British "Training Centres" stopped. The ESI union (FFES) are trying hard to keep them going. I think the trouble is that as with the TOs own ski schools, there's been a sudden proliferation of Grade 3s (presumably nice and cheap to employ) who have absolutely no chance of getting their Test Technique, never mind Eurotest. BTW, one such school I know pays their British stagiares more than some of their fully qualified Italian or French instructors - that's a disgrace!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| easiski wrote: |
| BTW, one such school I know pays their British stagiares more than some of their fully qualified Italian or French instructors - that's a disgrace! |
Why would they do that? Because they are desperate for English-speaking instructors?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think the Observer list is slightly confusing as the likes of Snoworks, Warren Smith etc excellent as they are not ski schools as such but performace courses which move from one place to another.
Correct me if I'm wrong but the British Schools Martin mentioned in France would just about all be grade 1 composed with a only a handful of grade 2s trying for eurotest etc working alongside them. I agree with what Martin says about Interski but not sure what the state of play with that is now.
I think British schools in the alps and esp France on the whole offer good value for money, the teaching IMO is generally superior to the local compertition.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Martin Bell, Because they have to pay them what they'd earn in the 3 Valleys/Val D which is more than we earn here (no committment to the resort). The majority of non-native English speakers here do speak very good English, and in that particular school they all do an excellent job. It's sad though, I was recommending snowboard instructors to an English guy last year, and although all the best ones I know are either French or Italian and speak excellent English, this guy wouldn't hear of it. I was unable to recommend a British snowboard instructor that I rate! Result - the guy didn't have lessons. 
Jake, This moving about is part of the problem. These guys have no committment to the resort they're based in (doesn't apply to Ali Ross), this upsets the locals, of course where it's seen as profiting from the resort and not contributing to it. Many of the British instructors here don't even bother to learn French - that's just rude! I'm astonished you think most of them give good value for money, a couple of years ago I recommended one british school in Val D to clients of mine, and they were charged TWICE AS MUCH PER HOUR EACH as I charge per hour shared for a private lesson. Now i can't, in all honesty, recommend that school again, as I found their prices outrageous. I'm not saying they're not good - they are - but so are many of the local teachers too.
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Easi- The British schools in 3vs and Espace Killy no doubt about it are not cheap but you are going to get top quality coaching in return. I paid for a 3 hr private for my father last yr and I was delighted as he had loads of stuff to be going on with for the rest of the week and a couple of things really clicked with him.
It costs a wedge to train for grade 1 now (one guy i talked to thought in training , living etc it cost 20k for him to pass speed test alone) so to get some kind of pay back on your training investment lessons really can't be cheap. I know its not all about the money but there has to be some kind of decent reward at the end of what is now a seriously hard sytem.
As a part time grade 2 I get about £15 / teaching hr which is not bad but runs out damned quick in ski resorts. You would need double that anyway to make a career of it I reckon.
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| Quote: |
| one guy i talked to thought in training , living etc it cost 20k for him to pass speed test alone |
An absurd amount of money.
I paid £95 for two weeks BASI 3 training, exam, and half-board accommodation at Glenmore Lodge at the foot of Cairngorm in 1975. The lift ticket had already been paid for as I'd worked unqualified on the hill for the preceding winter. The above amount of money is more than 200 times what I paid to get a BASI ticket.
Ski instruction should be an occupation that's open to lots of people at reasonable cost - it's not rocket science.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Jake, So who do you work for ? Fascinated to know ... just being nosey !
Perhaps the British expectation of what is a decent wage is somewhat higher than the French. I know that the partners in one French ski-school (And they obviously are 'fully' qualified) earn about €28-50 per teaching hour having had a 15% deduction to cover property/marketing costs etc ..... at least one of them is ex-French ski team.
I would agree that 'earning a living' from ski instruction is hardly the way to make money and major respect to all of you who take that route... without exception, but the mismatch between UK companies ( and they are not all as well qualified as you) and their French equivalents in terms of price ) smacks of exploitation and the contribution of some to the lifestyle/culture of resorts is appalling. It is of course not really the companies fault but that of the UK punter who pays those prices ...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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OK Easi you obviously feel quite strongly about this...The only thing I would say is why shouldn't the guys charging top dollar continue to do so if they are busy. Theres no such thing as a fair price only a market price and if they can get the west London type punters to open their wallets then fair dues to them...it may price some people out of the product but thats the way of things generally. Its just reward for getting to basi 1 otherwise whats the point other than as a mere personal objective.
Take your point about basi always having been expensive but surely you can see that with the speed test (not to mention a stringent tech course, mountain safety etc) the system has become more onerous in cost, time and difficulty.
I really didn't intend getting into a basi stylee debate though....to mention the word basi at dinner on courses incurs an immediate punch, fine or round at bar!!! Have a good season....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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eEvans, my perception is that the French think we'll buy anything at any price, numerous examples from paying way too much for apartments and chalets, through to the British section of local hypermarkets where you can buy baked beans at over £1 per can.
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You know it makes sense.
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David@traxvax, I'm ashamed to say I agree.
I won't quote the French version of it but loosely translated "Flash, Brash ..and nothing to shout about". I convinced myself for years that it was due to Macro-Economics . I now concede I was totally wrong. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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In the end it's all about supply and demand, what the market will stand, and levels of competition. In the US, where there is no intra-resort competition (almost every resort has a monopoly on ski teaching), a one-day (6-hour) private lesson can now be as high as £350. Certain rich Yanks are used to paying that for golf or tennis coaching, so they fork it over.
With the number of companies offering gap year instructor courses, perhaps there'll soon be an over-supply of instructors, although perhaps not fully-certified ones. So the cost of basic instruction may drop even lower, as will the pay rates. It's a glamorous job that everyone wants to do, so Adam Smith dictates that pay should be low. (Why do you think dentists earn so much?!)
Perhaps the "perceived value" of the "name" instructors (Ali Ross, Smiths Phil and Warren, etc) will hold up for a while, at least until some of those youngsters start making their way up the ladder in large numbers. (Hopefully the unique value of skiing with a former top-10 World Cup skier will always be seen as priceless! )
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I was described as that by an instructor once 
Different context methinks.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
I was described as that by an instructor once
Different context methinks. |
Maybe, or perhaps the instructor could see hidden talent that has yet to blossom?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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FAQ
