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Arrested British ski instructor held in custody: flashmob protest at police station

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
What Bindingcheck said, exactly.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
shep wrote:
What Bindingcheck said, exactly.


+1
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Simon Butler's statement from fb;

Quote:
In 2006 I won a landmark case in the French court in Bonneville allowing me to continue my business of teaching our own guests using BASI trained instructors of various levels openly and in uniform. I have been working in Megeve like this for 30 years.
The judge ruled there was no significant difference between the ESF pyramid system of full cert instructors and training instructors and our system. Thus we were able to continue and have done so for the past seven years in peace and without being hindered.
Juenesse et de Sport have recently changed the rules and have taken us to court winning a decision to now have us deemed illegal. The rule changes are that a minimum of 10 full cert instructors are required for the right to have training instructors and those 10 must be French qualified. This is discrimination not only against equivalence holders like myself but also against small business enterprise.
This happened on December13th giving us just 24 hours to try and change before our season started, with full capacity of over 100 guests per week in our two hotels, totally impossible.
The case was immediately appealed and with confirmation from the European Parliament that we could carry on working under appeal, we did.
After a control by the JDS in February we were told that it was their belief we could not work under appeal.
I immediately stopped our team of instructors teaching and announced this on our web site and wrote to all are guests still to arrive to inform them.
Myself and one other instructor continued to teach as we have the ISTD and we took the beginners and novice skiers.
Having confirmed with my French lawyer who had contacted the JDS that our own now former instructors out of uniform could ski with our more advanced guests who did not require tuition and film them as long as they did not teach them on the slopes.
I even employed two other instructors who run a ski school here in Megeve and both hold the ISTD to help with the many beginner groups.
I was advised that Alex was still allowed to ski, socialize and film our guests as long as he did not teach them on the slopes and was there as an amateur cameraman and companion. Watching the video and giving critique back at the Hotel bar in the evening was perfectly legal. Our former instructors are all friends with our guests due to the 94% return rate that we enjoy.
This is what Alex was doing at the time of his arrest and his group of 6 guests who are regulars with us confirmed that he was not teaching, one of whom is a lawyer. They felt so strongly about Alex's treatment that they went to protest at the Gendarmerie.
The appeal is on May 30th in Chambery
There is obviously much more to this case but i hope this clears up some of the points.


Maybe a couple of people posting in this thread owe Simon an apology Puzzled
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http://www.planetski.eu/news/4806
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Bindingcheck, Good post.


Quote:
There is an agreement, not legally binding, with selected Ski Instructor Associations within Europe which the people on the BASI Board (and historically the majority for them were/are ISTD's) have signed up to.


As this agreement evolves it appears to impact the work opportunities of non ISTD Instructors in other Europe territories.
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fatbob wrote:
I struggle to believe that any logicial, unbiased thinker would believe the safety justification so giving Mr Renouf some credit I suspect he's toeing a BASI political line, sad that a spokesman has to be so disingenuous. Unfortunately doing over rather than supporting his members in the process.

If the safety justification is true than surely Renouf and BASI should be lobbying heavily for mandatory re Eurotesting every few years as most professional organisations would expect that safety critical elements are refreshed frequently.


Most of the BASI board and current BASI Trainers certainly wouldn't have had to have passed the Eurotest in its current form, they would more likely have done the earlier Slalom version or indeed been awarded their ISTD based on grandfather rights not having to do a speed test at all, if they already held the old BASI Grade 1.

Most of the old ESF guys that get brought of of the cupboard come half term certainly wouldn't have had to train for their qualification to the same degree as instructors now.
Maybe like you say, a repeat Eurotest every 3 years would be in order, just to guarantee that instructors were safe. Toofy Grin
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Spyderman wrote:
Most of the old ESF guys that get brought of of the cupboard come half term certainly wouldn't have had to train for their qualification to the same degree as instructors now.
Maybe like you say, a repeat Eurotest every 3 years would be in order, just to guarantee that instructors were safe. Toofy Grin


The alps would suddenly have an awful lot more taxi drivers...
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So is Mr Renouf, the head of the British Association of Ski INSTRUCTORS saying that the vast majority of the membership are UNSAFE to teach skiing?

This should be publicised immediatly!!

There are skiers all over Europe being taught....at this very moment....by unsafe instructors!
Indeed there are a number of unsafe instructors teaching just a few miles away from his office as we sit here.....and what is he doing to protect those customers?
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snowHead Absolutely agree. Is an ISIA safe to teach in Scotland or Italy but not in France? If not, exactly why not? As all the Eurotest threads have argued in the past, Eurotest is NOT a safety issue. BASI would have far more legs to stand on if the focus was off the test and on, for example, the European Mountain Safety element of ISTD which you could easily argue was a safety requirement.
Whatever the outcome of this for Simon and his team, if Dave Renouf was quoted correctly (and I know how reporters can be selective in what they report) I think it raises a few questions about BASI's objectivity.
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albinomountainbadger wrote:


The alps would suddenly have an awful lot more taxi drivers...


And that would be a bad thing?

Maybe some of them would condescend to working after 22h00.

Or maybe just working.
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HeidiAmsterdam wrote:
Sadly, at the end of the day, the only way for me or anyone else to show our detest over this deplorable approach of monitoring a system, is to vote with your feet.

I love skiing France, but I am so sickened by this, I don't feel like going back to Megeve, or France for that matter.

And, I'm not even British, I'm a full blooded yankee, but you know how us yanks are, ever since we all got past that little tiff around 1775, we stick together...

In all seriousness, even though my children learned great skiing and achieved the French Gold Standard, after having muddled through ESF instructors speaking primarily French, and I therefore am not personally affected by this. It's a matter of principle.

I mean detaining him for 9 hours?

And there are drunks out there that are threatening the well being of real persons are held for less than that? It is just so wrong.

I've had my own run ins with the French Police, non skiing related, but equally ludicrous, and costing me dearly, so I know what this is like, and it is exactly the opposite feeling that one has living in a free country. It is the most repressive of experiences. And then you know, what the Jews felt like living under Stalin.


When was the last time you were back here? Les Flik are paragons of restraint and good manners compared to the ignorant, intolerant, ill trained, gun happy asswipes that now fill our PDs.
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spud wrote:
http://www.planetski.eu/news/4806


Usual poorly written Planetski stuff.
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under a new name wrote:
albinomountainbadger wrote:


The alps would suddenly have an awful lot more taxi drivers...


And that would be a bad thing?

Maybe some of them would condescend to working after 22h00.

Or maybe just working.


I doubt they'd do any more work, the existing problems would just be even bigger for the transfer companies.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
albinomountainbadger, hmmm, they'd probably establish something, let's call it a "Eurotest" whereby any non French, non-ESF minivan driver would have to get within 18% of Alain Prost's time around Le Mans in their Transit.

For safety reasons of course.
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under a new name, Laughing Laughing
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under a new name wrote:
albinomountainbadger, hmmm, they'd probably establish something, let's call it a "Eurotest" whereby any non French, non-ESF minivan driver would have to get within 18% of Alain Prost's time around Le Mans in their Transit.

For safety reasons of course.


Challenge accepted, if Alain Prost has to use a Renult Traffic, I'll happily take up the challenge in a 1998 VW T4 ex airport transfer van ruining on the (recycled) extract of Chamonix restaurants
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Idris, this would becalledrealityTVwouldn't it ?
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under a new name wrote:
Idris, this would becalledrealityTVwouldn't it ?
yup Wink
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Just to try and put this in perspective as some of the stuff I have seen doing the rounds is laughable. I am just shy of my ISIA have a couple of modules to attempt and hopefully I will be up to the standard.

I have no intention or desire to teach in France nor am I to pushed on completing my full ISTD. Although I would love to get the Eurotest as I savour a challenge and will attempt the ISTD mountain safety module for their educational value.

With an ISIA qualification (Level 3) You can teach anywhere in the world pretty much unrestricted (Guiding and some circumstances excluded) with the exceptions of France where you require an ISTD or to be a Stagiere limited to 3 years (I think), & Italy which requires a ISTD but will allow L2 and ISIA to teach for 3 weeks a year.

So the French and Italians have added an extra layer to the requirement to teach. At a conservative estimate 85% of the people who are looking for ski lessons in Europe would be more than satisfactorily catered for by an ISIA instructor, the added value of the Eurotest is beyond my comprehension as to how it will aid or benefit the final customer. Few first week skiers or 8-10 week skiers will in need of the skills the instructor will have gained passing the Eurotest.

At a higher end client requirement yes I can see the value or if the instructor has a desire to peruse a race based aspect to their career.

The reason the French and the Italians insist on the extra level is not for safety it is for protectionism. Any other argument is irrelevant. Yes they are their mountains and the only real solution is not in the courts but with the ISIA and other ski bodies to agree on a standard and roll it out.

To make it even better a number of native UK ISTD have been very vocal on social media about how they are not happy about ISIA teaching in France, one of whom I know for sure received an exemption from their Eurotest as part of the grandfathering process when it was introduced and I suspect one or two more so what is their reason? Well it is the same as above Protectionism especially from those those are slightly older and cannot keep up with the up and coming competition they seem to be making the most noise.

So it is not a French V British thing, there are plenty of other ski instructors from multiple nations who can not teach in France with their qualification but are deemed perfectly safe by the Swiss, Austrian, USA Canadian and Spanish authorities, so perhaps we could compare ski school accident figures based and see which nation is safer?

The current law in France may be an ass but it is the Law and we all know and understand most of it, if you don’t like it go elsewhere.
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Fattes13, I agree with you, but have a different perspective on the last sentence. It could well be the case (and, personally, I think it is) that the current French law, especially as it relates to "centres de formation", is incompatible with European law.
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I would have thought this kind of comment:

THE THING wrote:
SAINT..........I have been a qualified instructor since 1980 and have worked in Scotland when it had snow and Europe. Its not a proper job. Tell me in 5 years time if your still doing it full time when you have a family and are thinking about your pension. Then you will get a real job.


isn't helpful either... isn't this what the protectionism is about - ensuring local instructors DO have a proper career that allows them to pay for the mortgage, pension, family, food etc?
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miranda, that's the theory - but it benefits no-one in the long run. Funnily enough, that was most cogently explained by a Frenchman (Frédéric Bastiat).
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laundryman, yes, I can definitely see the arguments... but it would no doubt get up my nose (which I then might cut off to spite my face wink ) if johnny foreigner was espousing the "it's not a proper job and only something you can do when you have no responsibilities" theory whilst I was trying to hold my job in my home town and meet my responsibilities.
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Fattes13 wrote:
The current law in France may be an ass but it is the Law and we all know and understand most of it, if you don’t like it go elsewhere.

To be more precise, if you don't like it, don't get instruction in France. My personal experience of French instructors vs elsewhere (warning: limited sample size Little Angel ) is that they have been less good at instructing - maybe because they spent too much time learning how to pass Eurotest rather than learning how to instruct.

So not France for beginners but that doesn't mean that it isn't a good place once you've learned how to ski (and to read a piste map wink )
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miranda, well put!
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Is there an argument that there are so many French people, in mountain areas, who want to be ski instructors and are very good skiers that there has to be some means of restricting numbers, given that there are only so many paying customers? The alternative, I suppose, would be to have an over-supply of instructors which would mean that some (just people with no family responsibilities and/or no intention of making it a career) would be prepared to do the job for a few bob a week, a scuddy room shared with three others and a free lift pass. wink

The French rules obviously are protectionism but it's just a means of restricting competition and pushing up prices, is it? Private lessons with French instructors in ESF or ESIs seem to cost less than those with most of their British competitors.
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Quote:

To be more precise, if you don't like it, don't get instruction in France

or get instruction with one of the many British ski schools which seem, despite all the dirty tricks and protectionism, to have established a far bigger niche in France than in any other skiing nation.
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Fattes13 wrote:
Just to try and put this in perspective as some of the stuff I have seen doing the rounds is laughable. I am just shy of my ISIA have a couple of modules to attempt and hopefully I will be up to the standard.

I have no intention or desire to teach in France nor am I to pushed on completing my full ISTD. Although I would love to get the Eurotest as I savour a challenge and will attempt the ISTD mountain safety module for their educational value.

With an ISIA qualification (Level 3) You can teach anywhere in the world pretty much unrestricted (Guiding and some circumstances excluded) with the exceptions of France where you require an ISTD or to be a Stagiere limited to 3 years (I think), & Italy which requires a ISTD but will allow L2 and ISIA to teach for 3 weeks a year.

So the French and Italians have added an extra layer to the requirement to teach. At a conservative estimate 85% of the people who are looking for ski lessons in Europe would be more than satisfactorily catered for by an ISIA instructor, the added value of the Eurotest is beyond my comprehension as to how it will aid or benefit the final customer. Few first week skiers or 8-10 week skiers will in need of the skills the instructor will have gained passing the Eurotest.

At a higher end client requirement yes I can see the value or if the instructor has a desire to peruse a race based aspect to their career.

The reason the French and the Italians insist on the extra level is not for safety it is for protectionism. Any other argument is irrelevant. Yes they are their mountains and the only real solution is not in the courts but with the ISIA and other ski bodies to agree on a standard and roll it out.

To make it even better a number of native UK ISTD have been very vocal on social media about how they are not happy about ISIA teaching in France, one of whom I know for sure received an exemption from their Eurotest as part of the grandfathering process when it was introduced and I suspect one or two more so what is their reason? Well it is the same as above Protectionism especially from those those are slightly older and cannot keep up with the up and coming competition they seem to be making the most noise.

So it is not a French V British thing, there are plenty of other ski instructors from multiple nations who can not teach in France with their qualification but are deemed perfectly safe by the Swiss, Austrian, USA Canadian and Spanish authorities, so perhaps we could compare ski school accident figures based and see which nation is safer?

The current law in France may be an ass but it is the Law and we all know and understand most of it, if you don’t like it go elsewhere.


A very well put together post... simple, informative and inteligent imho.

If i may just add to that...after achieving ISIA status, it maybe more desireable in the eyes of a potential Ski School Director... but after 30 years of age... you're really stuffed unless schools are willing to give you a sponsered work visa or you can speak the local language.

I'm only a CSIA 2 aiming for 3 this winter. I was offered 6 jobs this last season as an Instructor, but only 2 could give me a visa. This summer I applied to pretty much every NZ and Oz snowfield... again only 2 can offer me a visa. There's plenty of work out their... it's just France and Italy that make it really hard for a foreigner.

Another thing that has become very obvious, it's who you get to know that can open doors for you and not always what you know.

As for a proper job... I've not met many Brits who have family and mortgages whilst working abroad as an Instructor. But, I've met plenty of Instructors in their own country who do though. It can pay quiet well.
I know of one Instructor who is employed by the local race Club to coach every weekend from mid Dec to mid March... they pay him $25,000 to do that. He works as a normal Instructor during the week as well, and averages 6-7hrs a day... Has a 'normal' job during the summer.

On a more personal note... why would anyone want to ski in France if there is a general feeling amongst locals of 'we don't want you here'. There are plenty more mountains in other country's to explore, with friendly locals and far less expensive...as well as having imho, better Ski Instructors generally.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
pam w wrote:
Is there an argument that there are so many French people, in mountain areas, who want to be ski instructors and are very good skiers that there has to be some means of restricting numbers, given that there are only so many paying customers? The alternative, I suppose, would be to have an over-supply of instructors which would mean that some (just people with no family responsibilities and/or no intention of making it a career) would be prepared to do the job for a few bob a week, a scuddy room shared with three others and a free lift pass. wink

There is such an argument … but I cannot see anything wrong with the outcome you describe. In addition to such people, there would be highly motivated and skilled individuals who would offer services at a premium and/or innovative services to attract loyal followings.
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Where do you ski when on holiday spud?
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Quote:

I cannot see anything wrong with the outcome you describe

well it would be a similar outcome to removing barriers to competition of many other kinds - how many more British workers would be out-competed by foreign workers, especially east Europeans, who often speak English a lot better, within a year or so of immigrating here, than a lot of British school leavers?

Personally I like the fact that the resort where I ski is manned (and womanned) largely with local people who are by no means paid a fortune but who can afford (with a different "summer job" - farming, building, for example) to have a modest permanent life here with their families. And how could Simon Butler, with his highly qualified and probably quite fairly remunerated, instructors compete with a load of 19 year old Slovenians and Bulgarians prepared to sleep 6 to a room and be paid well below the minimum wage?

Regarding some of the posts above, I see no reason why anybody should expect to get a decent job anywhere without "speaking the local language" or at least showing some strong motivation to learn it. Evil or Very Mad
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the complete removal of barriers to competition in France could well reduce the number of British instructors able to work here.
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pam w, fine by me.
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spud wrote:
On a more personal note... why would anyone want to ski in France if there is a general feeling amongst locals of 'we don't want you here'. There are plenty more mountains in other country's to explore, with friendly locals and far less expensive...as well as having imho, better Ski Instructors generally.


I would agree if that was the case? But it's not something I've experienced in France (well apart from one restaurant this year). Maybe I've been lucky to experience friendly locals, reasonable prices and excellent ski instructors (French & British).
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laundryman, The only person that will benefit from a challenge on it is someone like me who works in Legal Toofy Grin
The French & a number of nations do have exemptions in relation to free movement of trade etc. Just look at what happened recently when nations were added to the free trade bloc countries blocked their citizen’s from working

1gunsalute, I have said this a thousand times from a purley observational perspective the delivery of lessons I see in Austria and Switzerland 9/10 appears to be better than what I see in France.

spud, Thanks and have a good season in NZ
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Quote:

fine by me.

it might be fine by you, laundryman, but some of the British instructors aspiring to work in France with lower level qualifications need to be careful what they wish for. They probably wouldn't really want all barriers to competition to be removed. wink
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pam w, I'd still ski with Alex Casey, and at the same price as now! But yes, as an avowed free-marketeer, the commercial fortune of aspiring ski instructors, British or French, is not my concern. Let the market prevail. wink
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pam w wrote:
the complete removal of barriers to competition in France could well reduce the number of British instructors able to work here.

How so?
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pam w, I don't see that it follows that despite the example set by UK ISTD's working in France who have a vested interest in maintaining the status quo, lower level Brit instructors wouldn't be up for a bit of competition from other nationals given their language advantages for the target demographic. While ski instructor is a desirable job IMV it's not more desirable than lots of other ways to earn a living in the Alps which probably provide either more free skiing time or more cash. What you might find is a pool of instructors who primarily were passionate enough about instruction to bear a bit of hardship while they built a personal book of business (repeat and referred).
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Quote:

How so?
Because of competition from instructors from ski nations such as Bulgaria, Croatia, Serbia and Slovenia who can often speak a number of European languages and who are willing to work for lower wages and poorer conditions.
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