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20 French ski instructors (over 62 y.o.) win age discrimination case

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Lizzard wrote:
shep, so your beef is with the ESF's system of allocation, not the age of working instructors. Vote with your feet and go with one of the multiple other schools/independents out there.


Exactly. Most of the old guys wouldn't have a job if it weren't for the cosy priorité system which ensures the clients rarely get the best instruction available for their money. That's why I said the other schools will become more and more attractive the longer ESF continue to unfairly protect the old-guard.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Lizzard wrote:
boredsurfin, you will also find 17-year-olds looking after your children whose only qualification for doing so is that they can ski very fast round a load of gates.


Not true. They have to pass all the other teaching/safety elements as well as test technique. Agreed that doesn't necessarily mean they're any good at looking after the kids though!
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Quote:

an Italian instructor in Macugnaga once compared my stance to a stork trying to pass a bag of nails

Laughing either he had a fine grasp of English or you speak excellent Italian.
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shep, you still seem to be of the opinion that over 60 = rubbish at the job. People can be rubbish teachers at any age, and there's no real reason why an inexperienced 21-year-old should necessarily be a better instructor than someone aged 61 who has been doing the job for 40 years.
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Finally something I can agree with Lizzard about. It's taken ten years (and I turn 60 in a few weeks).
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pam w, we had a fluent parliamo man in our class Laughing Laughing
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My two most treasured instructor comments are-

-An ESF instructor a few years ago told me I skied like a Parisian. I think he meant it as an insult but I took it as a compliment.

-A tall American instructor, not unknown on these forums, told me I skied like an Austrian Farmer from 1957. I reckon some of those mid twentieth century Austrian farmers were probably pretty good. Toofy Grin
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Quote:

An ESF instructor a few years ago told me I skied like a Parisian. I think he meant it as an insult but I took it as a compliment.


sounds like my reaction to the butcher in Beaufort who asked if I was Belgian. Laughing

I'd be thrilled to be told I skilled like an Austrian anything.
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Lizzard, ok one more time since it appears I'm not making myself clear.

- I have no problem with older instructors if they are still working because the clients are getting value for money and good modern instruction from an enthusiastic and energetic monitor. I do have a problem with the unfit and tired old codgers just going through the motions because they're qualified for life and the priorité system continues to spoon-feed them work. How are the youngsters supposed to get that experience we all value if they're left on the bench all but 4 weeks of the season?

- I wonder if too many over 60's would compromise the safety role of the ski-school when called on in an emergency. (I also think the client can reasonably expect their moniteur/trice to be strong enough to climb back up in steep/deep snow to help look for a lost ski for instance.)

- Finally I don't think it's healthy for the skiing industry or a resort to be "fronted" by a bunch of wrinklies, particularly not on-the-hill. Young people are the future clients and like it or not, they are less likely to find skiing "cool" without role-models with whom they can identify.

Yes I agree there are plenty of good and bad instructors of all ages, but that's not what this thread is about.

I don't expect you to agree with me, but please stop mis-representing what I've said snowHead .
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Zermatt had a mountain guide called Ulrich Inderbinen whose life (103 years) spanned the entire 20th century - give or take a few months - because he was born in the year 1900 and died in 2004. He retired at 95, having climbed to the summit of the Matterhorn for the last time at the age of 90.

I daresday he would have had a few things to contribute to this discussion.

Info. about his biography (recommended):

http://www.cordee.co.uk/CNU003.php
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Quote:

I don't think it's healthy for the skiing industry or a resort to be "fronted" by a bunch of wrinklies

the wrinkly clients might quite like it; and the "silver pound" is a powerful economic driver. Early retired, good pensions, still got all their marbles and a fair proportion of their teeth. From casual observation quite a few private lesson clients are far from young. The young can't afford it and are going to have to work till they're 72. wink
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shep wrote:
- Finally I don't think it's healthy for the skiing industry or a resort to be "fronted" by a bunch of wrinklies, particularly not on-the-hill. Young people are the future clients and like it or not, they are less likely to find skiing "cool" without role-models with whom they can identify.

That's one of the most outrageous posts that I've seen in the history of snowHeads. I would far rather be taught by a 'bunch of wrinklies' than a young prat like you who thinks that he's a cool role model for kids. You're just an offensive idiot.

Presumably you think that we should remove any ski instructor whose image puts of potential punters. White supremacists might be discouraged from booking lessons if their instructor isn't a pure-blooded Arian. Heterosexual studs might feel their virility is threatened if a gay instructor can ski better than they can. Husbands and fathers won't trust handsome instructors with their wives and daughters. Young men might feel their masculine supremacy is threatened by a gifted female instructor.

You don't deserve to work at all in a public-facing role with an old-fashioned attitude like that. Go home, join the dole queue and don't ever dare to offer your services to this paying punter. It's pretty unlikely that my entirely modern kids would ever regard you as a role model, but I wouldn't let them within a mile of you in case some of your antediluvian social attitudes rubbed off on them.
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Jonny Jones, well, I was thinking to myself that that post was one of the most blatant bits of ageism I'd seen on Snowheads, but I'm glad I left it to you!

Some of us are old and we wear the wrong kind of clothes but we have a few years of skiing in us yet and the disposable income to pick and choose what ski instructors we want to engage.

The only one of the many visitors who have come to stay with me and taken private lessons who has been injured by what I regarded as the stupidity of the instructor was taken down a blue run with quite a steep little section on a day when it had snowed overnight and there was a lot of chopped up snow - the sort of stretch which needed care and a bit of experience. It was his first hour ever on skis. He fell, knee ligaments went, and that was the end of that. None of the wrinkly instructors I usually ask for would have done that, I am absolutely positive. But that day none of the people I knew was available and he took "pot luck". The very young instructor was no doubt a superb skier and great athlete, but he was a cr*p instructor. My friend was with his wife, who had a bit more experience, but clearly the instructor should have picked terrain suitable for the weaker skier. Of which there is an abundance in this resort - there was no excuse for the route the young guy took. He was probably just bored with nursery slopes.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
and - I should hasten to say - I am absolutely NOT saying that older instructors are necessarily better than young ones. There are good and bad of all ages.
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pam w, at 46 I'm not exactly a wrinkly but that post made me so angry that I still haven't calmed down. We had a great lesson this year with an older instructor who seriously impressed my kids by talking about expeditions he's led up Everest and across Antarctica. Last year's instructor was young and impressed them by showing them how to handle steep, narrow chutes and seriously nasty drops. Both instructors worked magic with our skiing and both proved their worth as aspirational role models.

Age doesn't come into it.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

I don't think it's healthy for the skiing industry or a resort to be "fronted" by a bunch of wrinklies, particularly not on-the-hill. Young people are the future clients and like it or not, they are less likely to find skiing "cool" without role-models with whom they can identify.

I blatantly have not misrepresented anything you said. You've just said it again right there. "Crumblies out", in summary. Laughing
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Jonny Jones, ah, the joys of quasi-anonymous internet fora.

I am sure shep won't mind if I point out, that contrary to received opinion, he is quite wrinkly himself. I and his wife have nagged (or considered nagging) him about moisturiser, but does he listen?

I would, however, argue that he is a cool role model for kids if they watch him ski, at least until the point when he reveals his wrinkliness. He has quite cool ski kit this season.

If I may put words into his mouth, is that he is not getting at anyone who is capable to do the job, regardless of age, but (for example) the regretable phenomenon (probably not restricted to France, but certainly very evident at least in the Haute Savoie [actually, I can cite incidence in Aosta as well]) of instructors old beyond their ability to function to the full extent demanded of an instructor being wheeled out because despite their condition, rules give them priority.

I would also ask when you last saw a resort/TO (SAGA excepted) brochure/marketing campaign suggesting that resort X was very attractive due to it's attractiveness to the "grey" currency (not that that's a good thing I hasten to add).

But shep has a point. The sport is sold as appealling to youth. Right or wrong that's how it is. Castigating him for alluding to an unfortunate reality is a bit of a strawman. Especially once you see his wrinkly face.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Jonny Jones, yes it does... [oh and shep's older than you...!] and I have been twice as old as you, some time ago...
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Well Shep will no doubt be retiring soon in order to provide more opportunities to the instructors in their 20s and 30s. To someone of, say, 17 it matters not whether you are 40, 60, or 70 - you're just old. End of.
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pam w, and?

...does that not bolster his argument?
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pam w your championing of the ESF in all and any circumstance is admirable, but in this case shep & the other reprobate probably have the main flaw in their "system" nailed.

It's not those that have the passion of skiing still in their hearts, it's those for whom it's just a job they learnt by rote a long time ago that you want to avoid.
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Quote:

your championing of the ESF in all and any circumstance is admirable

fatbob, are you following this argument properly? If anything I am championing the ESF's opponents.

I hold no brief for the ESF and don't use them if I have a choice - I use the ESI which charges much the same and which, incidentally, does not have the same system of giving the old boys all the best jobs.

What I HAVE done is point out that in many cases the ESF is the cheapest outfit around - by miles - and asked those who claim that ESF instructors are very highly paid to explain how they can provide private lessons at half the cost, or less, of their British competitors. IIRC there have been no responses. wink
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pam w, "old boys"?

Isn't that both sexist and ageist? wink
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under a new name, shorthand. Like not writing "his or hers" all the time. though there are a lot more old boys than girls around in the red uniform.
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fatbob, shep thinks that old instructors present a bad image and that they should therefore be put out to grass. I regard that as an outrageous position to hold. To me, it sounds like the excuses people used to make for having a workforce that's entirely composed of one ethnic group, gender or religious persuasion.

Poor employee performance is an entirely separate issue that can happen at any age. I have no patience with it: underperforming staff should be given an opportunity to improve; if that fails, they should be removed regardless of age or tenure.
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pam w, ah, ok, then. Or not. Twisted Evil
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under a new name, the "boys" could be construed as sexist, but the "old is just what they are. Like me. Unlike shep I'm not suggesting their age should mean they are banned from teaching (that would be ageist....). I agree with Jonny Jones that the useless ones of any age or sex should be dumped if they can't improve their performance to the required level.
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pam w wrote:

What I HAVE done is point out that in many cases the ESF is the cheapest outfit around - by miles - and asked those who claim that ESF instructors are very highly paid to explain how they can provide private lessons at half the cost, or less, of their British competitors. IIRC there have been no responses. wink


It's a bit OT but I'll have a stab based solely on uniformed punterdom - private lessons are a very small part of their mix and something of a loss leader. The real rake is in the group lessons which are grotesquely oversized and at peak times provided often by the office trainee on a pittance. Happy days. Private lessons at least keep some of the old duffers out of trouble for a bit but the advantage of using the duffers on them is a) the lessons aren't too good so not many people want them and the leakage is minimised and b) priorite is recognised.

Why the British competitors charge twice as much is cos they've worked out what the market will bear for a quality product (& if they are sold out at busy times who is to say they are wrong). The ESF secretly would love those rates but recognise that a) they've got an image problem with the type of punters that are prepared to pay them and b) Parisians are generally tightwads.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Interesting seeing some of the comments on "wrinklies" and on the "silver pound."

I've been collecting my pension for a year or two now, and I was surprised to see in the hotel in Austria a couple of weeks ago that probably 70% of the residents were my age or older. And there were a lot of them !

Does anyone know the demographics of the skiing population ? Are they getting older, and if so, older instructors may well be in demand from those (like myself) who do not take kindly to young whippersnappers pontificating on the basis of limited knowledge or experience.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Instruction and avalanche rescue aside, the mountains would be changed forever without those permatanned silver foxes leching over young ladies; it's part of the holiday experience...
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 Poster: A snowHead
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deerman, I'm in Serre Chevalier this week and next. There is a good mix of ages, including French children who should be at school. However there are a lot of over 60s, and quite a few instructors kicking around of similar age.
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Quote:

Does anyone know the demographics of the skiing population ?

Not specifically but a lot of the people who can afford to travel - a lot, not just one week a year, are in the SAGA age group.

I don't mind anybody of any age pontificating at me if they are competent. I did a dinghy sailing course last October with an extremely good 18 year old.

fatbob, whilst you're at it, would you have the grace to accept that in this thread I am, if anything, championing the ESF's opponent in this argument. And if you can back up your earlier accusation of my mindless championing of ESF by producing any examples I will happily donate £20 to the charity of your choice.
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deerman, the older ones are getting older. As are the younger ones!

At 47 I am I allowed to pontificate?

snowHead

I think I am no longer a whippersnapper Shocked
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under a new name, just a tad younger than me and my OH then, so of course you're still a whippersnapper. 50 is the new 30, so we aren't there yet.
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[quote="deerman

Does anyone know the demographics of the skiing population ? Are they getting older, and if so, older instructors may well be in demand from those (like myself) who do not take kindly to young whippersnappers pontificating on the basis of limited knowledge or experience.[/quote]

Wouldn't surprise me that boomer retirees (the last generation to benefit from final salary pensions while still in good health) are the main users of certain hotels/resorts. Don't see that skiing's that much different from golf or sailing which certainly offpeak aren't the preserve of
wage slaves or the youth rich/cash poor.
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Jonny Jones wrote:
a young prat like you
You're just an offensive idiot.

Even at my advanced age, it appears I have a lot to learn about being offensive Confused
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shep, whippersnapper.
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pam w, Sorry. I would never use a term like mindless with one of the many cookies far smarter than I on this forum (yes I did use the term uniformed punter non-intentionally, doh!). On reflection you don't seem to be championing any particular ski school here, which will teach me to be better at skim reading so I apologise. Did the apples and oranges discussion we had a while back not include you refering to ESF rate cards though?

As for shep, he's clearly just a bad old dog barking back to his glory days as a young pup when he was the young stud with his paws on all dem bitches.
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Quote:

Did the apples and oranges discussion we had a while back not include you refering to ESF rate cards though?

sorry, you've lost me there. What's an ESF rate card?
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