 Poster: A snowHead
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A group of veteran French ski instructors, denied work this winter, have successfully sued their union for age discrimination. They may consider an additional action for loss of earnings ...
http://connexionfrance.com/ski-instructors-age-discrimination-union-Grenoble-14562-view-article.html
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| The SNMSF [ski instructors' union] says that the decision leaves their profession in an impasse as “ski instructors have no age limit for working; “from this day on the Ecoles du Ski Français will be totally frozen, instructors wanting to stay in work can work as long as they want”. |
How old would you like your ski instructor to be? Do you like the mature/vintage ones?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Some where down the line could this also lead to the unraveling of the Euro Test?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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That's going to have an effect on the tour guide issue 'cos that's where these crumblies are headed.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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This news is over 1 year old. please keep up CG
| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
| That's going to have an effect on the tour guide issue 'cos that's where these crumblies are headed. |
Not a chance. All these guys are fully qualified and have gone back to the top of the planning list.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Winterhighland,
That thought went through my head too.
stewart woodward,
I have certainly read this "news" before as well. Is CG having a senior moment and re-postingt?
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| This news is over 1 year old. please keep up CG |
Happy to be corrected. When did this hearing take place, then?
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I had an instructor in his seventies this year (Austria). He was very much an old school skier - but I consider that to be a good thing as you learn something different.
He was a great skier and perfectly capable of instructing good intermediates/ advanced students. Why should he be excluded from instructing if he reaches a certain age?
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Does somebody want to tell me why it matters in the slightest that my ski instructor could ne a 'crumbly'? Old news, perhaps, but the court made the right decision IMV.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| musher wrote: |
| I have certainly read this "news" before as well. Is CG having a senior moment and re-postingt? |
Probably, it's why people of his age should face compulsory retirement from forums. The easy way to get around this year old news thing is to change the thread title to "over 63", shirley.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| Does somebody want to tell me why it matters in the slightest that my ski instructor could ne a 'crumbly'? Old news, perhaps, but the court made the right decision IMV. |
Depends on whether they've kept pace with modern equipment and technique? It's not the age it's the attitude that counts. Does rather make a farce of the idea that Graham Bell is intrinsically "unsafe" as a instructor until he passes his Eurotest as his FIS points are > 5 years old while Jean-Luc Moutard can be plugging away the top class till he pops his clogs.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thanks, Swiller. Very gracious of you. This nursing home you're suggesting - has it got wi-fi?
Googled this ...
26 May 2012. Simon Atkinson, blogging from Les Arcs:
http://simon-lesarcs.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/en-colere-industrial-relations-in.html
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| ... there is an ongoing dispute between the ESF and some of its older instructors. The ESF employs 17,000 moniteurs in 250 resorts across France. In 2007 it adopted a policy of getting instructors aged over 60 to cut back their hours outside school holidays - the intention being to provide more opportunities for younger workers. This was adopted at Arc 1800 in 2009, and prompted five instructors aged 57-62 to take the ESF to court. The latest ruling by the court in Albertville was in their favour, declaring it to be a clear case of age discrimination. |
Stewart Woodward (above) actually posted this in March 2011:
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=50772&start=80#1747890
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French ski instructors, who are members of the ESF syndicate, currently have to retire at 60. A number of instructors are challenging this retirement age due to the retirement age in France being raised to 62(?)
Perhaps they will have to retake their Eurotest to keep working  |
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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stewart woodward,
1.) stewart woodward, (i) It's not old, the case was decided recently and (ii) guides have to be qualifed in France following the TO case.
2.) think about it - TO's are banned from guiding and suddenly the ESF has a surfeit of qualifed guys who want to wind down a bit and work less hours and who ESF cannot fire BUT can direct to what they do whilst working for ESF just as a whole new potential area of employment has opened up because unqualifed people have been banned by a French court from doing what they did. Hmmmmmm ... let me think ... what could these senior ski instructor guys do that would suit everyone??? It's a puzzler.
3.) zellmaniac, (i) insurance - have you any idea how much it will cost to commercially insure one of those blokes?? (ii) it prevents progression and hiring of people who want to come into the profession. It could also have a knock-on effect on economies which are heavily based on generational progression for reasosn that are political, social, economic and legal. The raisng of the retirement age has been specualted on at length from various academic POV's
Lastly it could have all sorts of implications with regard to healthcare and the French govenrment legal obligations and options.
In theory, I am actually for the decison IF the people concerned have the choice but this might be a decison that totally swings the balance of the French economy at a time where France is the most quickly growing country in Europe i.e. where it has a shed load of unemployed young people not adverse to rioting. If they hear that old white guys have just got the right to keep their jobs as long as they like ....well, duck and cover.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| Thanks, Swiller. This nursing home you're suggesting - has it got wi-fi? |
The one I'm thinking of is in Wimbledon, you'll love it. No wi-fi but it does have something called WTF?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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RattytheSnowRat,
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3.) zellmaniac, (i) insurance - have you any idea how much it will cost to commercially insure one of those blokes?? (ii) it prevents progression and hiring of people who want to come into the profession. It could also have a knock-on effect on economies which are heavily based on generational progression for reasosn that are political, social, economic and legal. The raisng of the retirement age has been specualted on at length from various academic POV's
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I hadn't thought of the insurance angle, however why would it be a lot more expensive? Is an older instructor intrinsically more likely to cause or have accidents? In my limited experience I find that older instructors are more safety conscious.
Given age discrimination legislation it is incumbent on the employer to show that an instructor is no longer capable of performing his/her duties. It is not acceptable to say that they must give way to younger people, no matter how well intentioned that may be.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| Does somebody want to tell me why it matters in the slightest that my ski instructor could ne a 'crumbly'? Old news, perhaps, but the court made the right decision IMV. |
Doesn't bother me overly, at least I can almost keep up with the older instructors. I remember spending some time with the granddad of Paul and Martina Accola, he was in his late 70s and still instructing.
This winter my son and I did some slalom training with an ESF guy into his 60s, he was very quick and very good. Don't expect he could get his eurotest but he was impressively quick.
If I'm skiing with a female instructor I prefer her to be young, pretty and curvacious and I don't give a toss whether she had her eurotest or can even ski that well  .... maybe one of those former ski reps would like to apply?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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RattytheSnowRat,
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| It's not old, the case was decided recently |
If you are refering to the age discrimination case the instructors won their case over a year ago. Our ski school settled claims from some older instructors at the end of last season. They were awarded loss of earnings and reinstated on the planning list. It was just not reported.
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| guides have to be qualifed in France following the TO case |
This again is not new. Ski Olympic were prosecuted for the same offence 10 years ago. The recent case followed the previous case law.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Ski Olympic were prosecuted for the same offence 10 years ago.
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I distinctly remember a (very good) Ski Olympic guide in very poor visibility in La Rosiere saying he was happy to give us some hints and tips on our skiing in such weather, but if anyone in a red jacket came anywhere near, he'd have to stop. That was a lot more than ten years ago. Probably nearer 20. There's nothing new in all this.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I thought our esteemed president wanted to put the retirement age in France back down again - if so they'll all be sacked again next season.
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My kids had an instructor in his 80s at the local dry slope a few years back. He was their favourite out of all the staff.
Attitude and aptitude are what counts. Some people lose it when they get old, but many don't. I don't believe we should sacrifice experience on the altar of youth.
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Whether they're ESF seniors or BASI legacy pull-the-ladder-up-behind-you royalty they all need to move over and let the younger blood have a go.
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And how do you suggest the older types feed themselves and their families? Are you suggesting some kind of Logan's Run style solution here, or are you happy to fork over loads of tax so a bunch of perfectly healthy and competent 60-year-olds can sit on their bums doing sod all for the next 30 years?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Met a few old ESF boys over the years, one was a taxi driver, one opened a restaurant and another a ski shop. In any case they all said it was their choice to stop, fed up hanging around beside the piste in the cold! I would hope they can earn enough in a forty season career to set something aside for retirement, it's hardly a minimum wage job.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| shep wrote: |
| lizzard...feed senior instructors lessons irrespective of their ability or enthusiasm. |
I don't think that anyone wants an incompetent or unenthusiastic instructor. But dealing with poor employee performance through enforced retirement is a stupidly blunt instrument that gets rid of capable and motivated older staff whilst allowing idle middle aged duffers to continue ripping off their clients for decades.
Of all the measures of competence that I can imagine, age is near the bottom of the list. And I say that as one of the much-mocked (in some snowHeads threads) punters who actually pays the bills so that ski professionals can enjoy their lives in the mountains.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
But dealing with poor employee performance through enforced retirement is a stupidly blunt instrument that gets rid of capable and motivated older staff whilst allowing idle middle aged duffers to continue ripping off their clients for decades.
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I agree. I have a copy of the Good Skiing and Snowboarding Guide 2003 which I was sent free because I wrote to protest about a very ageist comment in their previous addition about Austrian instructors. I said that apart from having had a good week's instruction from an aged Austrian instructor I had had an absolutely spiffing private lesson in Les Gets with an aged Scot.
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| shep wrote: |
| Let them compete for their work on a level playing field and the good ones can go on as long as the clients want them! |
Not advocating forced retirement, just a booking system which operates in the clients' best interests! But also as I suggested earlier there is a safety consideration if instructors are not physically capable of assisting in a rescue mission.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Wed 20-03-13 7:31; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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What's the situation with high mountain guides?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| shep wrote: |
| But seriously I don't believe instructing should be a job for life |
I will try and have a cup of coffee with Ali Ross (he is in his 70's) this morning and tell him he needs to retire. He seemed to be ripping the powder with his clients yesterday without any problems
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Poster: A snowHead
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stewart woodward, Good for him, he generates his own work and the guests know what they're getting. How do you feel about the Planning-List ("Liste de Priorité") system? Does it operate in the clients' best interests?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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shep, so your beef is with the ESF's system of allocation, not the age of working instructors. Vote with your feet and go with one of the multiple other schools/independents out there.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| stewart woodward wrote: |
| I will try and have a cup of coffee with Ali Ross (he is in his 70's) this morning ... |
If you do, Stewart, please give him my warmest regards. He transformed my life in 1975 (BASI trainer on Cairngorm) and called me a "lamppost" (skiing posture). After two weeks of training he called me a "bent lamppost".
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Looking at some EsF schools at half term in La Plagne, there certainly is a whole group of older instrutors working for a couple of peak weeks.
I guess they are all still 'qualified' under great grandfather rights 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Comedy Goldsmith, think yourself lucky. One of Ali's Scottish colleagues once called my a f***ing lamppost.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
One of Ali's Scottish colleagues once called my a f***ing lamppost.
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boredsurfin, you will also find 17-year-olds looking after your children whose only qualification for doing so is that they can ski very fast round a load of gates.
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Is nobody selling great private pension schemes to these chaps so they can retire play golf and going on cruises just like the people in the adverts, opening for some well paid employment there?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Cynic, given the amount of their income they're already paying in social charges/tax/pro insurance/etc, I suspect there wouldn't be a vast fortune in it.
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FAQ
. Whether they're ESF seniors or BASI legacy pull-the-ladder-up-behind-you royalty they all need to move over and let the younger blood have a go. If ESF want to commit marketing hara-kiri by keeping the old duffers on good luck to them, the other ski schools will become more and more attractive (literally!). It's a bit like the airlines, the US and EU cabin-crew are now all old unsackable battle-axes (of both sexes), and most people given the choice will fly with a non-PC asian airline where the staff are young, pleasant, motivated, and decent eye-candy! (p.s. I include myself in the past-it old duffers category 
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(the lower section of the Combe du Machon black). Within 20 minutes the dozen or so local pisteurs, maybe the same number of available lifties, and I'd say 60-odd moniteurs were there probing and digging like crazy. (I saw it going on from the Prodains cable-car). In any major on-hill incident we are all reliant on the instructors for immediate assistance, they're the biggest force up there.
)
