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Ski accidents: who holds the secrets?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
In American ski areas, and probably the vast majority of those around the world, the only investigating professionals on the scene are the ski patrol.

What if someone dies, or is seriously injured? The cause may be a collision, in which one party is responsible, or some serious issue about the way the mountain is operating. On the roads, the police will be there, but on mountains it's different. The Denver Post has begun a 3-part series looking at "Mountains of risk" ...

http://www.denverpost.com/investigations/ci_22808316/colorado-system-investigating-ski-accidents-raises-concerns

... "risk" being perhaps the key word, since many (operators or skiers) take the view that skiers should never sue and accept all risks including negligence.

Ski areas today are, of course, giant theme parks - heavily mechanised, bulldozed, groomed, sculpted, surfaced. Pay the money and ride. They're a bit like a networks of white roads, on which skiers are drivers. The grooming is done to maximise customer satisfaction and revenue.

In that context, this stuff is quite interesting. After a blizzard of lawsuits, American ski areas in numerous states obtained protection by law from litigation. For that reason these Denver Posts articles are likely to go down like a lead cablecar with the big players (and their insurers).

Any views on whether skiers should accept unlimited risk ... and therefore no right to sue ... when buying a lift ticket? Or is there a line on the snow?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
It is hard to answer that question as US ski resorts (which are like giant theme parks you refer to) are so different to European ones. There is expectation of things being made safe in US, and no such expectation in Europe, where you are free to leave the piste but completely at your own risk. French police will be very quickly involved eg if there is an avalanche and there is suggestion guide was negligent. Lawsuits are common in Europe after collisions and that is main reason you need insurance (though maybe exchange of names etc not enforced well). So I think your question relates to US which I know much less about
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:

The cause may be a collision, in which one party is responsible

when I had a collision in January I reckon we both contributed to it (though naturally I think he contributed a bit more wink )and neither of us was being negligent or reckless. It was "just one of those things".

Not every accident is caused by actionable negligence. But when it is (e.g. failure to take sort out a potentially dangerous fault on a ski lift or do the regular maintenance required) the culprits oughtn't to be immune just because it happens on a ski slope.
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I had an accident last year whilst in ski school, no one else involved, but my more experienced friend felt that we should not be on the red run which we were on although i disagree. Having said all that, accidents happen and i retured to work with the same instructor this year. However, on a previous trip another member of the group was taken out by an up hill out of control skiing. My biggest fear is other skiers who are not in control.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
pam w wrote:
... failure to take sort out a potentially dangerous fault on a ski lift ...


Good point, and something of an exception to the point above. When ski lifts cause death or serious injury, a statutory safety body will usually investigate. But in other situations, secrets may remain secret. Ski areas manage all sorts of major risks, including avalanche, run closure due to ice etc., crevasses and other holes, obstacles and so on. Here, as the article points out, it's the ski patrol who will file the report.

With serious collisions, get witnesses immediately - it's critical. They are impossible to resolve without witnesses.
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Yes, this interests me too - I had a collision last season, in which I was blamed immediately by the (much bigger!) other skier. I was going downhill into an intersection but VERY slowly as I passed a slow sign. He came what must have been very fast (since I didn't see him despite checking my path immediately before) across the intersecting blue. He was angry and claimed he had right of way. I was too shocked/concussed to reply but after figured it was his fault (his speed) or equal (both have responsibility) - I know I always look uphill and slow down before crossing a piste.

Even with ski patrol, it's impossible to monitor all accidents, but seeing so many people ski/board so fast (in control until something gets in their way...), it's scary what people could get away with.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
They've left some "Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet" text in there, sloppy.

I agree that this stuff is quite interesting, although I can't follow your reasoning: I guess you're flying a kite.


I've never been to a "theme park", but ski resorts aren't anything like roads with drivers on them, although I'm not sure what that has to do with any of this. Most North American resorts with heavily prepared areas tend also to have a lot of "in bounds" riding which is not prepared. People who believe that US resorts are in some way more restrictive usually have failed to understand the that the rules are different, and in what way. There's explicitly no "expectation that things will be made safe". What makes you think there is?

I would guess that law suit activity levels will track participation / accident and litigation levels in the population as a whole. I'd say there's been a perfect storm of sanity and reasonableness, but that doesn't make headlines. If you've evidence for "a blizzard of law suits" I'd like to hear it.

You can't "accept unlimited risk" (to use your phrase). Even if you sign to say you don't mind if the operator negligently kills you, that has no force in law and they're still liable. Equally you can't claim you didn't know it was dangerous.

If you want to lean about American ski law, here's a good place to start: http://www.skilaw.com/ Click through to find the various state laws, but none of them are close to the sort of thing you're talking about. There's really nothing to worry about, there's no law which suggests that resort operators are immune to the law wink


--
I'd be interested to hear about specific examples of European litigation. Has anyone here been hit by someone and pursued them for damages. I'm assuming we're talking civil here; criminal stuff ya can't insure against I believe.

--
As far as "accidents" are concerned, even if both parties are equally liable, that doesn't make it an "accident" in the sense that it could not be avoided even if people had acted differently. I'm not saying that taking avoiding action is always going to be reasonable (or that it was in this case of which I've no knowledge), but quite often it is.

For example.... There's an GoPro helmet cam video of a guy and his buddy both dropping into a bowl. They drop in simultaneously, gain speed for a few turns, then turn directly into each other at full speed. They collide face to face and bones and teeth break. The guy who posted it said it was "just one of those things that can happen, a freak accident". That's manifestly nonsense: both riders made half a dozen basic errors, not least of which is not looking where they're going. People who walk into lamp posts probably claim that's accidental too.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Another extensive article from the Denver Post (second in the 3-part series) ... this time focusing on the Colorado Ski Safety Act, which shields ski areas from litigation and - resorts argue - keeps down the price of liftpasses:

http://www.denverpost.com/investigations/ci_22813161/colorado-ski-industry-enjoys-protection-from-law-waivers

Quote:
In 2009, a 9-year-old skier was hit and injured by a Breckenridge ski instructor who was on duty and allegedly skiing "unreasonably fast," according to the court complaint. U.S. District Court Judge William J. Martinez found that the resort had immunity because collisions with other skiers are listed as an inherent danger and risk under the act. The Colorado legislature, the judge said, did not carve out an exception for collisions with ski-area employees.
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Here in Canada we have to sign a waiver in order to get a season's pass. I questioned the waiver and did a little research before deciding we had no chohce but to sign. In it there is reference to the term negligance, however it also appears in law and probably in US too) that there is negligence and gross negligance . Ski hills can be grossly negligenct and noone signs to waive rights if they are.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:

My biggest fear is other skiers who are not in control.


Trouble is, it's very easy to go from being perfectly in control to not in control - that was how I tested the safety nets last year in Les Arcs. I was skiing at a moderate pace on a gently sloping road, when I caught an edge and slid gracefully across the piste, over the edge and down into the netting.Had there been anyone en route I would have collected them as well.

Nothing anyone could have done about it - that's why it was an accident.

Sure there is always room to improve, but we seem to have forgotten that accidents will always happen and there isn't always someone to blame
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Quote:

I was skiing at a moderate pace on a gently sloping road, when I caught an edge


Sorry but if you caught an edge you were not in control.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
There isn't much in the way of secrets or much point to creating an industry of investigators or "expert witnesses". Most ski accidents involving collisions will either be person with static object - person clearly at fault unless static object unreasonably camouflaged or deliberately placed so as to obstruct, or person on person - will come down to he said/she said in absence of witnesses and many people unable to accurately describe their skill level or speed/trajectory.

Most resorts do a damned good job on safety in the context of a hostile mountain environment and high volumes of users so unless they are doing reckless stuff like running punters over in snowmobiles/cats or erecting steel spikes in the piste I'd prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt in most litigation. It isn't Disneyland after all. That goes for signage etc as well unless wilfull misleading is going on e.g. grading a black run as a green etc.

Anyone who thinks US resorts on hill are any more theme parky than European either hasn't been there or is seriously misguided. (exluding faux European base "villages" and other similar nonsense of course)
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:

Anyone who thinks US resorts on hill are any more theme parky than European either hasn't been there or is seriously misguided. (exluding faux European base "villages" and other similar nonsense of course)


Totally true. I wouldnt describe much of where we have been this season as a theme park.

The patrollers there do a great job and generally the area is made safe from avalanches, and other hazards but at times its not always possible and so ski at your own risk.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Having lived through the whole transition from raw ungroomed mountainsides - in 1959 cablecars, crude gondolas (open skeletal frames, no windows), chairlifts and ski tows all existed. But you skied snow as nature laid it down. Any bulldozing of terrain (you'd be surprised how much goes on in summer), snow-making and snow-grooming produces a theme park to some degree. Places like La Grave (France) and Mad River Glen (Vermont, USA) are exceptions in leaving their mountains absolutely raw and natural.


Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 19-03-13 13:38; edited 1 time in total
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Comedy Goldsmith wrote:
Places like La Grave (France) and Mad River Glen (Vermont, USA) are very exceptions in leaving their mountains absolutely raw and natural.

Every hill that I've visited in North America has had extensive areas of absolutely raw and natural terrain that skiers are actively encouraged to access without any need for a guide. The presence of a few isolated groomed trails does nothing to remove the raw edge of the rest of the mountain. It's normal to find a couple of flimsy signs warning you about the biggest cliffs, and parts of the mountain that offer no safe escape might be fenced off, but, apart from that, you're on your own.

Crashed into a tree? Tripped over some undergrowth? Gashed your gear on a rock? Reduced to a whimpering wreck by a steep, narrow chute? Fallen into a tree well and died? Stuck in powder up to your armpits? In North America, it's your own stupid, dumb fault for not looking where you're going.

That's why legislation that restricts resorts' liability is so important. It means that they're free to make things fun without the fear of being sued by namby-pamby folk who can't cope with the sheer gnarliness of it all.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Fast Pat wrote:
Quote:

I was skiing at a moderate pace on a gently sloping road, when I caught an edge


Sorry but if you caught an edge you were not in control.


Err no I wasn't that's kind of my point - these things happen. I was in control, then caught an edge on something during a turn. If you ever watch Ski Sunday you may notice Pro skiers fall at some point, feel free to point out to them that they were skiing out of control rolling eyes

That's why I said in post

Quote:

Trouble is, it's very easy to go from being perfectly in control to not in control



But of couse I forgot some people are perfect skiers and never have accidents, or at least they're not their fault. I bet you're a perfect driver as well aren't you
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Boris, Yeh but who do you think gets the blame if you injure a kid on your slide to the net? I appreciate it is an accident but the racer analogy is a bit out as by definition they are on the limit of control in order to be as fast as possible on a closed course, one would reasonably expect a responsible slope user to be comfortably within their personal limit where there is anyone else around.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
fatbob, yes I also admitted that I would have been at fault on my slide to net - but the point remains I was skiing in control right up to the point when I made a mistake! I had no intention of skiing beyond my limit or hurting myself when I fell.

The point I am trying to make is that accidents happen - are you seriously saying you have never fallen skiing, when not doing anything out of the ordinary, or spilt a drink, dropped something, tripped over your own feet, misjudged a doorway, forgotten to indicate.............the list is endless.

There seems to be a view that with enough regulation accidents will never happen - which is just rubbish - unless the legislation is to ban skiing and boarding completely.

By all means clamp down on bad behavious and deliberate reckless skiing - but there will be always be cases when a mistake is made which results in an accident.

I'll think I stop now as I don't think I'm explaining myself well, if at all.
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Boris wrote:


I'll think I stop now as I don't think I'm explaining myself well, if at all.


I disagree Boris! I think you have make your position quite clear, & I agree with you. Accidents happen - but in this litigious society, I think that has been forgotten.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Boris wrote:

There seems to be a view that with enough regulation accidents will never happen - which is just rubbish - unless the legislation is to ban skiing and boarding completely.


I actually agree with you and do have a considerable objection to those who think the FIS code provides adequately for everything, even if it were followed by everyone. I think there is a certain amount of caveat emptor attached to every lift ticket purchase in that in accessing a ski resort you are deliberately exposing yourself to all sorts of idiots with variable skills, so first and foremost personal responsibilty should extend to situational and spatial awareness and the development of appropriate skills for where you choose to be on the mountain.

I know this view doesn't make me popular with those who hold that snowploughers ought to be able to plough where they please, and everyone ought to defer to the less competent. Yes in their "zone", no on the mountain in general.


Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 19-03-13 15:32; edited 1 time in total
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 You'll need to Register first of course.
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Here's today's (third) Denver Post article ... which focuses on the causes of death and injuries (far less quantified/analysed) on Colorado's slopes ...

Part 3
http://www.denverpost.com/investigations/ci_22820133/colorado-skiers-die-groomed-blue-runs-after-hitting

Quote:
Experienced male skier. Thirty-seven years old. Wearing a helmet. Loses control on an intermediate, groomed run and hits a tree.
That's the average person who died on Colorado ski slopes in the past five seasons


Part 2
http://www.denverpost.com/investigations/ci_22813161/colorado-ski-industry-enjoys-protection-from-law-waivers

Part 1
http://www.denverpost.com/investigations/ci_22808316/colorado-system-investigating-ski-accidents-raises-concerns
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Regarding the Denver Post articles, we've collected and posted responses from several industry organizations, including the one I work for, Colorado Ski Country USA, and posted them on our blog: http://blog.coloradoski.com/. Thank you for hearing our side of the story.
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