 Poster: A snowHead
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meh, might be, but when talking with people and everyone are telling me how easy it is to carve nowadays with modern skis, and then seeing their "carving", which looks pretty much same as their skiing looked 30 years ago with old style skis, then I think I have a point in this what I wrote 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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And lo it was discovered that people talk a bunch of crap. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| meh wrote: |
| And lo it was discovered that people talk a bunch of crap. |
What's crap? For the keen learner skier who is looking to improve his/her technique do you think 110mm wide skis on piste do much to help? If a light skier on 90mm wide skis is in the back seat offpiste, is a wider ski the answer?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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DB, urrrm, no need to get defensive. My post is in reply to primoz posting directly above it and is part of a series of posts between us. Nothing to do with what you posted earlier other than its a thread of conversation that perhaps sprouted from it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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meh,
Wasn't sure if you were talking about the whole thread or not. No stress but as someone who gets to ski a fair amount of powder in places such as Japan (lucky bügger) I think your answers/opinions to the questions would however be appreciated by many here.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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DB, well we've done those questions to death elsewhere in the past few days and I don't think mine are any more valid than others.
For the keen learner skier who is looking to improve his/her technique do you think 110mm wide skis on piste do much to help?
Probably not but people also advocate learning to ski off-piste on skinnier skis because it's harder, so maybe we could reverse that thinking and say learning to carve wider skis probably makes you more technically proficient overall. I personally think that's silly, to take it to the absurd everyone should learn with leather boots and wooden skis before moving up to anything else. I tend to think people learn better with equipment that helps them do what they want, after all learning anything new requires a lot of practice so you need to want to put the time in. Learning should be fun.
Of course it does depend on the learner in question (we're all hopefully still learning stuff!) as per this thread about moving from 68mm->108mm skis. I wouldn't say fatter skis were particularly harder to control either, certainly they require more effort to carve but as per the above not a lot of people are doing that on skinnier skis anyway!
If a light skier on 90mm wide skis is in the back seat offpiste, is a wider ski the answer?
No, skiing all back seat isn't really a function of kit and 90mm is a good width for most modern all-mountain skis with a bit of rocker.
There are loads of criteria in skis that people probably shouldn't get whilst at an early stage of learning to ski. Waist width has been overly worried about in the majority of the last few threads IMO. Mostly I think because that's the most easy way to generalise about the differences between skis. The beginner on super stiff GS skis is probably at a larger disadvantage. Lifes too short to worry too much about what other people are skiing on, in or with strapped to them without some serious reason to bother.
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Meh thanks for the answers.
If a lower level learner is going heli skiing or on an off-piste course then I can see the point of wide (110mm+) skis but not as an every day ski including training on piste. For advanced skiers who are just using the wide skis to get to/from the lift at the end of offpiste runs it probably doesn't make much difference.
The kit can in certain instances cause back seat problems i.e.
1. Binding position e.g. when the binding is too far forward or back.
2. Boot / Binding height setup - Delta angles etc. Noticed myself when moving to a different boot / binding setup that I became much less prone to back-seating in powder.
As for worrying, I'm not losing any sleep over this just trying to help other Brits who do worry/are concerned over their skiing performance and point them in the right direction. Always good to see other Brits putting in nice turns on difficult terrain against the odds (in a "Cool runnings" / Jamacian Bobsleigh sort of way). The Brits in Saalbach scraping 110mm+ waisted skis onpiste also serve as a form of amusement. 
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I think you'll have to put up with people making decisions you think are substandard for them. It's a similar thing to people taking offense at others using GoPros to record stuff they consider rubbish.
Much better to shrug your shoulders, carry on and offer advice when asked. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I find the idea quite entertaining really. I'm a mountain biker too, soon to become a mountain bike guide; as a major part of my future career you'd think I've got a full shed of different bikes for all the varying types of riding, but you'd be wrong - I have a single 6.5" travel All Mountain bike, and quite happily ride every type of trail on it, DH, XC etc. Technique for me is way more important than gear - in the MTB world we have a saying: "It's not the bike, it's the rider." I've probably spent about £2500 on my bike, but at the level I ride at many others will have easily spent £8000+, and still be fretting about the tyres they're running 
I suspect that the situation is broadly the same in skiing, a good skier will ace one with bad technique regardless of the level of gear they have. I'm just tentatively starting to build up my arsenal of skis, my current piste skis are from '03, and you know what? They work just fine in powder, on piste, the lot. (That said I'm midway through the purchase of a pair of twin tip powder skis, but I digress.) I respect that people enjoy having good gear but it begs the question of why they are not spending the money getting out there getting more slopetime in on rental skis than spending a large proportion of their cash and henceforth limiting their slopetime - I'd say it's greatly related to the fact that skiing is a minor leisure activity in their life, rather than a great passion or even a way of life like it is for many of us. It's also part of the whole 'consumerist society' deal, where people would rather buy a product to do something than work hard to learn the skills.
Just my two pence.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rasmanisar wrote: |
I find the idea quite entertaining really. I'm a mountain biker too, soon to become a mountain bike guide; as a major part of my future career you'd think I've got a full shed of different bikes for all the varying types of riding, but you'd be wrong - I have a single 6.5" travel All Mountain bike, and quite happily ride every type of trail on it, DH, XC etc. Technique for me is way more important than gear - in the MTB world we have a saying: "It's not the bike, it's the rider." I've probably spent about £2500 on my bike, but at the level I ride at many others will have easily spent £8000+, and still be fretting about the tyres they're running
I suspect that the situation is broadly the same in skiing, a good skier will ace one with bad technique regardless of the level of gear they have. I'm just tentatively starting to build up my arsenal of skis, my current piste skis are from '03, and you know what? They work just fine in powder, on piste, the lot. (That said I'm midway through the purchase of a pair of twin tip powder skis, but I digress.) I respect that people enjoy having good gear but it begs the question of why they are not spending the money getting out there getting more slopetime in on rental skis than spending a large proportion of their cash and henceforth limiting their slopetime - I'd say it's greatly related to the fact that skiing is a minor leisure activity in their life, rather than a great passion or even a way of life like it is for many of us. It's also part of the whole 'consumerist society' deal, where people would rather buy a product to do something than work hard to learn the skills.
Just my two pence. |
rasmanisar, you paraphrased comments that have already been made but your condescension is wholly undisguised, so well done for that. And like some of the the previous posts, you've made a whole bunch of assumptions based upon your prejudices as a self professed master, contradicted yourself and glibly attempted to patronise anybody who wasn't like you, as if they would actually care. But mostly, you paid £2,500 for a freakin' pushbike, you muppet !! What a waste of money ... my old Schwinn 4-Banger is about 15 years old, cost me less than 1/5th of that and is still going strong.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| DB wrote: |
| Meh If a lower level learner is going heli skiing or on an off-piste course then I can see the point of wide (110mm+) skis |
I would disagree, unless they could pretty much guarantee powder. A 110mm+ ski is not going to help a lower level learner in most off-piste conditions
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| Quote: |
But mostly, you paid £2,500 for a freakin' pushbike, you muppet !! What a waste of money ... my old Schwinn 4-Banger is about 15 years old, cost me less than 1/5th of that and is still going strong.
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Google translated to ski speak
But mostly you paid 700 Euros for a pair of skis, you muppet !! What a waste of money ... my old Rossignol excesses are about 15 years old, cost me less than 1/5th of that and are still going strong. (so are my salomon sx 91 boots by the way)
Yup, bike tech has changed as well !!
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You know it makes sense.
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| moffatross wrote: |
rasmanisar, you paraphrased comments that have already been made but your condescension is wholly undisguised, so well done for that. And like some of the the previous posts, you've made a whole bunch of assumptions based upon your prejudices as a self professed master, contradicted yourself and glibly attempted to patronise anybody who wasn't like you, as if they would actually care. But mostly, you paid £2,500 for a freakin' pushbike, you muppet !! What a waste of money ... my old Schwinn 4-Banger is about 15 years old, cost me less than 1/5th of that and is still going strong. |
Would you care to clarify on this comment? Yes, I obviously hold a certain level of condescension for people who would be classified as 'all the gear no idea', as they're only fooling themselves. Does this mean I resent/dislike them? Obviously not. Self professed master? Again, feel free to point out where I claim to be a 'master' of anything. And no, I'm not patronising, I'm simply making my opinion on the matter clear, as you have so abundantly done in response. Any solid point you might have had is thoroughly disparaged by your final comments, as you obviously have no idea whatsoever about the industry on which you so delightedly thrust your opinion. Just to clarify, professional level mountain bikes can cost up to £10000, the way I personally manage and maintain my equipment is considered economical by professional standards, and as a semi-professional in the industry with years of experience I do not have to listen to your uninformed time wasting rubbish. If you want to spout meaningless agressive nonsense then kindly take it elsewhere.
As for the topic at hand, I stand by my opinion.
EDIT: Although I might add at this point that I completely support people's right to independent choice and if they want to buy a load of expensive gear for no reason then that is entirely up to them.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 14-03-13 17:07; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I hate the way mountainbike "pro" kit has inflated in cost over the past 10/12 years.
I sound like a right old duffer, but even then you could get a real top draw frame and build it up for around £2K and end up with a bike that would be pretty much the same spec/weight/whatever as the team riders rode.
if that had happened in skiing then most skis would now be well over the £1K mark.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Patch wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| Meh If a lower level learner is going heli skiing or on an off-piste course then I can see the point of wide (110mm+) skis |
I would disagree, unless they could pretty much guarantee powder. A 110mm+ ski is not going to help a lower level learner in most off-piste conditions |
Why?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
I hate the way mountainbike "pro" kit has inflated in cost over the past 10/12 years.
I sound like a right old duffer, but even then you could get a real top draw frame and build it up for around £2K and end up with a bike that would be pretty much the same spec/weight/whatever as the team riders rode.
if that had happened in skiing then most skis would now be well over the £1K mark. |
Oh god no, I totally agree. The cost is mental for some of the parts, to the point where even things in moto-X are cheaper than MTB, which is just absurd.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| Patch wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| Meh If a lower level learner is going heli skiing or on an off-piste course then I can see the point of wide (110mm+) skis |
I would disagree, unless they could pretty much guarantee powder. A 110mm+ ski is not going to help a lower level learner in most off-piste conditions |
Why? |
Let me turn it around ... why would a 110mm+ ski help a lower level learner?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Patch wrote: |
| clarky999 wrote: |
| Patch wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| Meh If a lower level learner is going heli skiing or on an off-piste course then I can see the point of wide (110mm+) skis |
I would disagree, unless they could pretty much guarantee powder. A 110mm+ ski is not going to help a lower level learner in most off-piste conditions |
Why? |
Let me turn it around ... why would a 110mm+ ski help a lower level learner? |
In pretty much all ungroomed conditions bar very firm and icey, a bit of width and rocker (and weight, for that) makes things easier and more fun. If anything, you get more benefit from bigger skis in crust/crud/tracked than you do in powder. More stable, easier to pivot quick turns without getting bogged down in variable snow/crust, easier to go fast and make big turns too. If it's easier and more fun, the learner skis these conditions more (and for longer before getting tired). Time spent doing makes for a better skier than one who avoids 'bad' conditions. Making the conditions easier to ski allows the skier to think more about technique and 'skiing well' (body position, fore/aft balance/etc), and apply technique rather than 'survival skiing.' The right tool for the job raises 'ability' relative to 'skill level,' so the outcome (the important bit) of efficient skiing or skiing harder terrain is achieved quicker.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
In pretty much all ungroomed conditions bar very firm and icey, a bit of width and rocker (and weight, for that) makes things easier and more fun. If anything, you get more benefit from bigger skis in crust/crud/tracked than you do in powder. More stable, easier to pivot quick turns without getting bogged down in variable snow/crust, easier to go fast and make big turns too. If it's easier and more fun, the learner skis these conditions more (and for longer before getting tired). Time spent doing makes for a better skier than one who avoids 'bad' conditions. Making the conditions easier to ski allows the skier to think more about technique and 'skiing well' (body position, fore/aft balance/etc), and apply technique rather than 'survival skiing.' The right tool for the job raises 'ability' relative to 'skill level,' so the outcome (the important bit) of efficient skiing or skiing harder terrain is achieved quicker. |
It's a good call tbf, especially when you're talking about tracked snow - in my experience (which I'll grant you is not all inclusive but nonetheless), things are much harder going in tracked snow. On the flip side, you could argue that learning with a thinner ski will build stronger technique and henceforth mean that when they hop onto big skis they really feel the benefit, rather than just being average on big skis and incapable off piste on thinner ones.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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rasmanisar, even if you don't recognise it as such, your post was so patronising that it was bordering on sneering so I tried to include some irony in my reply. I am sorry that wasn't obvious enough.
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| moffatross wrote: |
| rasmanisar, even if you don't recognise it as such, your post was so patronising that it was bordering on sneering so I tried to include some irony in my reply. I am sorry that wasn't obvious enough. |
It was entirely obvious, but spoilt because you didn't have a grasp of the fact that the example you were comparing it too was in fact one of moderatism within the industry to which it was relevant. You do seem very enthusiastic to start an argument with me, care to explain why? 
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clarky999, You sum up my skiing. Having done all my early skiing on flat ice at the Snowdome, I always struggled with snow on the piste. OK, my Missions cover up my poor technique (as much as it can be) but it does mean I can ski on days like today, where it has snowed all day and I have skied every variety of snow on every variety of piste - and even a little off.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| DB wrote: |
| The Brits in Saalbach scraping 110mm+ waisted skis onpiste also serve as a form of amusement. |
I don't really get this complaint, how do you know where people are skiing the rest of the time, how do you know they haven't been skiing off piste all day and are just on piste as the fastest way to go somewhere else? Maybe they are having an easy day on piste and in between the pistes as they are knackered from a previous hard days skiing? Maybe they only have 1 pair of skis which suits where they ski 90% of the time but you see them when they are skiing the 10% for which their skis are suboptimal? I have seen people post on here a lot about people skiing fat skis on piste but I really, really don't know how you can tell where they are skiing other than for the 10 minutes maximum that you see them, unless you are following them about all week which is even more worrying than skiing fats on piste.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rasmanisar wrote: |
On the flip side, you could argue that learning with a thinner ski will build stronger technique and henceforth mean that when they hop onto big skis they really feel the benefit, rather than just being average on big skis and incapable off piste on thinner ones. |
And really, size isn't everything. I have 2 pairs of skis with similar stats but one is old style flat tailed skis with camber while the other has rocker-camber-rocker. In untracked snow both are great to ski but anything tracked or a wee bit crusty and the flat skis are so much harder to ski, I wouldn't buy anything but a piste ski without rocker now, regardless of underfoot width.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rasmanisar wrote: |
| On the flip side, you could argue that learning with a thinner ski will build stronger technique and henceforth mean that when they hop onto big skis they really feel the benefit, rather than just being average on big skis and incapable off piste on thinner ones. |
This argument has popped up before, and it doesn't seem very compelling to me. We don't encourage people to learn in leather boots to appreciate the benefits of modern plastic boots, we don't encourage people to learn on straight skis to appreciate the benefit of sidecut... the argument can be extended ad absurdum with metal ski edges, fixed-heel bindings and chairlifts.
There's a bizarre sort of puritanical "all ski technology invented since I learned to ski is a frivolous luxury" attitude amongst a large number of grumpy old skiiers
And besides, the problem seems to have been vastly blown up out of all proportion. Honestly, you'd think having read a few of these threads that you wouldn't be able to move in the alps without tripping over clueless, ignorant newbies and incompetent, arrogant Brits (and it is always Brits in these stories, isn't it?) on 120mm+ skis
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Oh indeed, I was just playing devils advocate It's also drawing in my mountain bike experience wherein we advice people to learn to ride on hardtails, so that they learn to take the smoothest lines, meaning that when they come to use full suspension they are using it too its full potential, rather than simply using the benefits of the rear suspension to cover up for their lack of technique - this what I was applying to novices using fat skis straight away. I don't buy into the elitist comments about Brits being over geared, I think the same situation applies to most nations where skiing is considered a holiday pass time.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rasmanisar wrote: |
| Oh indeed, I was just playing devils advocate It's also drawing in my mountain bike experience wherein we advice people to learn to ride on hardtails, |
Airline pilots sometimes learn to fly in gliders so they learn about wings, aerodynamics etc. That would be similar to your scenario. Then again sailors may learn on hobycats, the fat rockered ski of the sailing world - so they can learn to sail or at least have fun rather than spending their lessons in the water capsized.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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It irks me when people assume that being British means that skiing is a holiday pastime. Nearly as much as the word 'quiver' irks me. Maybe I'm just irksome tonite. However surely we are all on here because we enjoy the snow. So whether we are working in the city of London where all the latest kit costs a weeks wages, or 30mins from a scottish ski centre cherishing every piece of kit you own who really cares. Do it, spend your money as you see fit, as long as you are wearing a smile, and not endangering others what harm can it do. Some folk want to learn some folk may never have a lesson in their lives. Some folk drive BMW' s and wish for porsche's some folk only want to get from A to B.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Crikey, you don’t half get some patronising twonks on the internet!
| Quote: |
I respect that people enjoy having good gear but it begs the question of why they are not spending the money getting out there getting more slopetime in on rental skis than spending a large proportion of their cash and henceforth limiting their slopetime - I'd say it's greatly related to the fact that skiing is a minor leisure activity in their life, rather than a great passion or even a way of life like it is for many of us.
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Surely, the reason is that often the people we are talking about are relatively money rich/time poor. I have 25 days holiday a year, even if I spent it all on skiing that’s only 5 weeks a year, i.e. not a lot. Punter Brits aren’t limiting their slopetime by spending their money on jazzy skis that make them ski better than you; it’s limited by their available opportunities to go skiing.
Just because people only spend three or four weeks skiing a year doesn’t mean it’s not a passion.
Personally, my one ski quiver for next season will be 98mm underfoot, ~17m turn radius and “tip rocker” with Marker Tour 12 binding. This allows me to have fun on the pistes (I can still carve skis this wide, any larger and I struggle), enjoy the off-piste when opportunity allows and gives mean the option to tour. Bonzer. I expect to be sneered at for them being too fat for the piste, too narrow for powder and too heavy for touring. For me though, the perfect compromise!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| dode wrote: |
| Nearly as much as the word 'quiver' irks me. |
Must say I fell about laughing once I figured out what people meant by a quiver. A bit like referring to your Vespa as a Hog.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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After skiing 84mm Zags and then 90mm Punishers for about 30 weeks (or so) of off-piste skiing (in all conditions) I then (just recently) tried Rockered Fat skis at 115mm waist - thinking them probably to be just a fad. The difference was dramatic, the rockered fat skis are superb and have increased my enjoyment (off piste) loads and loads. I now have a new pair of 115mm 188cm skis waiting for Easter.
I would also say that if you ski lets say 4 weeks a season (32 days) then that is a lot of skiing - unless you are a skiing professional. That would equate to both days at the weekend for nearly 4 months solid! An Austrian commented to me that I probably ski a good bit more than most Austrians who live (and work) in the Mountains. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| JayDub wrote: |
| 4 weeks a season (32 days) |
Are you a Beatles fan ?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Patch,
Nice one!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I stopped taking lessons when it became obvious that I was spending my time following some gimp in a shiny corporate ski suit around the mountain in order to watch him teach others. I would, no doubt, benefit from one-on-one lessons but I am self knowing and humble enough to realise that actually getting much fitter PRIOR to the holiday is what I really need to do and until I do that consistently, lessons are a waste of money. And I would point out that it's not the Brits in the main producing or purchasing the kit, it's the Yanks/French/Italians/ Austrians/Germans/Slovenians. So if you want to point a 'kit obsession' finger, I suggest that collective direction.
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
| I would, no doubt, benefit from one-on-one lessons but I am self knowing and humble enough to realise that actually getting much fitter PRIOR to the holiday is what I really need to do and until I do that consistently, lessons are a waste of money. |
The better your technique and balance, the less fitness you need. I see plenty of retired men (and some women) who can ski very well but don't have a fit young body. Chatted to a German guy on the lift at Tauplitz (Austria) today; to look at his kit and his age you'd think his skiing wouldn't be up to much but he skied really well.
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| DB wrote: |
| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
| I would, no doubt, benefit from one-on-one lessons but I am self knowing and humble enough to realise that actually getting much fitter PRIOR to the holiday is what I really need to do and until I do that consistently, lessons are a waste of money. |
The better your technique and balance, the less fitness you need. I see plenty of retired men (and some women) who can ski very well but don't have a fit young body. Chatted to a German guy on the lift at Tauplitz (Austria) today; to look at his kit and his age you'd think his skiing wouldn't be up to much but he skied really well. |
Yes, but technique and balance comes from doing. And doing. And doing correctly. Which requires fitness. Most of us mere mortals need to work on our technique. And I we can get some help from good equipment along the way, then why not? Following this argument, wearing warm gloves would be bourgeois nonsense.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hi everyone. My name is Peter and I'm an addict
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FAQ
