Shoulder swinging/upper body rotation is not what I would call "a bad habit" . That is just total lack of proper technique, not exactly hard for someone to diagnose themself.
I would still argue that if someone has had good instruction in the core concepts then they may well be better off getting out skiing and assimilate what they've already been taught rather than pumping out good money to hear the same things again!
Next time your on a hill, take a look around, I'd wager 60%++ of the skiers will be sitting back or using their upper body to turn. Maybe not on perfect green pistes, but as soon as it gets lumpy/slushy/steeper etc.
These are deeply ingrained bad habits that folk cannot self diagnose and IMHO have come about from folk either having no lessons, or a week or so, then "just skiing" and copying the bad habits they see from others...
There are then loads of really subtle bad habits (once again IMHO), around being centered in the boot, ankle flex, hip position, hand position, pole planting, leaning, upper/lower body seperation, feet too close together/too wide apart, not adapting technique to conditions/snow/hill steepness
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
kitenski wrote:
I'd wager 60%++ of the skiers will be sitting back or using their upper body to turn.
And almost all of them will be having a great time and won't give a toss!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
maggi wrote:
kitenski wrote:
I'd wager 60%++ of the skiers will be sitting back or using their upper body to turn.
And almost all of them will be having a great time and won't give a toss!
and that is fine, but then they wouldn't be on here asking for help if they couldn't give a toss, would they??
I suppose the real question is how does a skiier get his/her confidence back,
Drop back to easier terrain/snow conditions and focus on skiing with good control and precision. Then slowly increase the level of demand (terrain and/or snow) but continuing to focus on making those same movement patterns that you were making in easier conditions.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
I'd be interested in seeing some video of the non-professional skiers posting on this thread (i.e. not instructors) who take lessons at every opportunity and have been doing so for years to see how they compare to the average joe you see on the slopes who doesn't bother doing so. Presumably it would be fairly obvious to see what all those lessons have given you that others don't have?
swiftoid, The really relevant vids would be before and after and there are a variety of those, as well as TR videos. Enough to give a flavour.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:
almost all of them will be having a great time and won't give a toss
we do see quite a few people writing about lack of confidence, feeling very nervous, being afraid of falling, afraid of picking up any speed, finding poor visibility or difficult snow conditions really unpleasant, etc etc etc. The OP is certainly not alone - I expect most of us feel like that sometimes and when I do I know it's because I'm not skiing as well as I can - so I either give myself a good talking-to and go back to basics, as rob suggests above, or seek out a lesson if that ploy doesn't succeed too well! or give up for the day and go home for a drink - but that's not such a good solution when you only have a week to ski.
Just looking round the slopes you also see skiers whose body language makes it pretty clear they're not really having a great time at all! Equally you see lots of others skiing really badly but with body language telling you they're having a great time.
Anybody who is sufficiently self-aware and open-minded to post, as the OP did, having not enjoyed himself as much as he'd hoped, and wondering how to cope with more difficult conditions, deserves some careful feedback - he gives a toss, even if others don't. Ski holiday time is too scarce, and too expensive, not to be enjoyed to the full and for quite a lot of people that means feeling fully in control and confident to tackle the runs you want to do (which might well not be all of them....).
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
As the OP on this thread I can confirm that I do "give a toss" hence asking the question, there are two reasons for this. Firstly, whenever I take up a sport or hobby I like to study and do it properly - this forum is a part of that. Secondly, when I ski I want to be able to ski with friends with more ability or see areas of the mountains without having to wonder if I can get back safely and enjoyably.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
beequin, here's a before and after sort of video. One of our regular clients who started as a very timid snowplougher. The footage from an Alpine resort towards the end of the video was his second week in the mountains.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 13-03-13 20:43; edited 1 time in total
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
panthersdave, of course you give a toss! You're a snowHead . And I did say, earlier in the thread, that a private lesson would be useful. But the majority of Brit holiday skiers just learn to ski the basics (2 or 3 weeks group instruction), then go on holiday to have a good time. So long as they are not dangerous, I don't see why we should criticize them for all their faults. It just seems a bit rude.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
panthersdave wrote:
I think the instruction might help to develop confidence, at no point during my holiday was I dangerous. As one of the group I was skiing with pointed out, I can turn and stop at any point so was never out of control.
What I wasnt doing -in places- was allowing myself to pick up enough speed to develop a nice rhythm of turning, I seemed to have developed an irrational fear of falling and was possibly skiing well within my limits.
I suppose the real question is how does a skiier get his/her confidence back, the point about changing snow conditions causing a problem certainly seems valid.
What I would do is go back to easier blues and spend time relaxedly skiing with good technique and as your confidence improves, as you prove to yourself that you can do it, start to ramp up to something steeper. Part of the problem may have been that it was 2 years since you'd done it and deep down had forgotten you could!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rob@rar, that's so impressive. I'd love to see my own trajectory from Poppy Tailtosser (now that would be a good screen name, wouldn't it? ) to...whatever it is now.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rob@rar wrote:
andyrew wrote:
I was thinking in terms of hands close in to the body - the "are you cold?" syndrome, which you may not notice in yourself unless pointed out.
Why is that a problem? You might not like the style or the look, but does it, in itself, interfere with a skier's ability to make effective movements?
Yes, I would say it does. Skiing lazily with "your hands in your pockets" surely increases a tendancy to let your shoulders rotatate? You won't be in a good position to respond to changing conditions. I've always felt it a good maxim to have your hands where you can see them!
I don't want videos from a website with a vested interest in selling lessons.
I'd like to see how good the people on this thread who advocate lessons at every opportunity are in comparison to the average punter to gauge if it was money well spent or not.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I had not had lessons for a few years. This year I felt that I felt that I was at the edge of control and not skiing with precision when skiing fast, which resulted in me not enjoying my skiing. On my second trip this year I had a 3 hour private lesson, my instructor took me on a range of terrains, we worked on technique, and added some skills to the toolbox which I did not previously have. I had a big smile on my face for the rest of the week. Following this experience I will try and work in a refresher lesson toward the beginning of each season. I suspect the benefits are greater than having the latest boots/skis etc.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
swiftoid,
Quote:
how good the people on this thread who advocate lessons at every opportunity are in comparison to the average punter
Strikes me as not being the point. After many years of no lessons, I've had a few years of lots of lessons. The point for me is that I now ski better than I did before, that is to say with more ease, pleasure and style. But I'm still no better than the average punter!
Strikes me as not being the point. After many years of no lessons, I've had a few years of lots of lessons. The point for me is that I now ski better than I did before, that is to say with more ease, pleasure and style. But I'm still no better than the average punter!
But some people are criticising what they see the average punter doing so presumably they think all those lessons have raised them above what they are criticising?
I don't want videos from a website with a vested interest in selling lessons.
I'd like to see how good the people on this thread who advocate lessons at every opportunity are in comparison to the average punter to gauge if it was money well spent or not.
swiftoid, well I'm a qualified Level 1, but don't instruct for a job, so am willing to throw some video up! I don't advocate lessons at every opportunity, I advocate quality lessons at appropriate times.
This is from 2008, I was enjoying my skiing, but hadn't had lessons for years and made the decision I wanted to improve my skiing
This is from Hemel about 2 years ago when I decided I wanted to become better than an 'average' UK skier and was thinking of training to do my Level 1, I'd had one or two individual lessons I think between 2008 and 2011.
This is from December 2012, during my Level 2 training, short performance turns on a red(?) gradient slope. By now I've had a solid week of lessons indoor for my L1.
But some people are criticising what they see the average punter doing so presumably they think all those lessons have raised them above what they are criticising?
Possibly. In my case, I had lots of bad habits, some people might describe them as average punters' habits. I've eradicated some of these with the help of lessons. Doesn't make me an overall brilliant skier, but the purpose (for me, anyway) of the lessons was fulfilled.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Hi Panther,
Everyone can always improve more and learn more, i would say you need a combination of decent personal instruction and practice.
why don't you identify a dry slope or dome near you and see if you can join some improver/coaching sessions, or if you can afford it book a couple of private lessons then practice more. Good instruction will help you improve your stance, balance, technique in turning, transfering weight etc. if you practiced regularly you would be a different skiier by next season.
Good luck
ATG
After all it is free
After all it is free
andyrew wrote:
Yes, I would say it does. Skiing lazily with "your hands in your pockets" surely increases a tendancy to let your shoulders rotatate? You won't be in a good position to respond to changing conditions.
OK, so that skier has poor rotation control. It may or may not be related to hand carriage. I've recently had this exact discussion on the hill and one way of illustrating the cause and effect dilemma was to ski with your hands on your pockets. Some of the group skied just as well, others lost performance (although flex/extension control rather than rotation control). Most of the time I see hand carriage being a symptom of something else rather than the cause of the problem. Changing hand carriage I think isn't terrible effective as mostly you'll be "treating" the symptom of the problem not the cause.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
swiftoid wrote:
But some people are criticising what they see the average punter doing
Who is doing the criticising?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rob@rar wrote:
Who is doing the criticising?
There are only two pages. It shouldn't be hard to find the references to the bad habits of a very high proportion of holiday skiers or the lots of skiers seen from chairlifts for example. I'm just interested to see if those pointing out such faults in others have eliminated them from their own skiing through regular lessons.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
swiftoid, so only those people who are entitled to recommend ski lessons are those who have perfect technique?
What I can see in this thread is people offering a range of opinions and advice, often based on personal experience, and not everyone agreeing with each other. It's up to the OP to take from that range of opinion what he likes. Surely that is the purpose of discussion forums?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
rob@rar wrote:
andyrew wrote:
Yes, I would say it does. Skiing lazily with "your hands in your pockets" surely increases a tendancy to let your shoulders rotatate? You won't be in a good position to respond to changing conditions.
OK, so that skier has poor rotation control.
...
Most of the time I see hand carriage being a symptom of something else rather than the cause of the problem. Changing hand carriage I think isn't terrible effective as mostly you'll be "treating" the symptom of the problem not the cause.
What would you consider it a symptom of?
I do see people, often on not so steep terrain, skiing with arms by their sides, "hands in the pocket", poor or no pole use, and the end result is a sloppy upper body with shoulder rotation dragged around by the poor hand position. In addition they're easily put off balance by "blips in the terrain".
Would'nt treating that by getting the hands forward "into view", bringing the body into a much stable "ready for anything" posture sort that? So I'm seeing the sloppy "hand carriage" as a "bad habit" in itself not as a symptom of something else. What would you see it as a symptom of?
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 13-03-13 19:49; edited 1 time in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
andyrew, hand carriage isn't that important provided you are still able to make effective pole plants. As I said, if you can ski well with your hands in your pockets then why not? It might be stylistically unusual, and not to some people's taste, but if your skills are good enough to ski like that I don't see what the problem is.
I don't see that shoulder rotation is a symptom of low hand carriage. I see it as a problem in itself. Someone with good rotation control won't automatically lose that skills just because they drop their hands. What might be more of a problem is not low hands, but "marching hands" - when people stretch too far for their pole plant, then let that hand drop back as the other hand stretches too far forwards. This can set up a swinging shoulder rotation.
To some extent I agree with you that low hand carriage can be a bad habit, but mainly because it makes timing of the pole plant (or the existence of a pole plant) more difficult. But if skiers are able to manage those important skills and still keep their hands quite low then who am I to say they are 'wrong'. By coincidence one of the guys I'm skiing with this week does carry his hands relatively low; not down by his sides, by certainly lower than me. He's an extremely good skier, way better than I could ever hope to be, although some people might not like his "style".
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rob@rar wrote:
swiftoid, so only those people who are entitled to recommend ski lessons are those who have perfect technique?
No, but if they're criticising things other skiers do and they still do them themselves having had loads of lessons it does suggest those lessons weren't very effective.
rob@rar wrote:
What I can see in this thread is people offering a range of opinions and advice, often based on personal experience, and not everyone agreeing with each other. It's up to the OP to take from that range of opinion what he likes. Surely that is the purpose of discussion forums?
Well, yes. That's exactly what's happening. I think everyone can see that.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
swiftoid wrote:
No, but if they're criticising things other skiers do and they still do them themselves having had loads of lessons it does suggest those lessons weren't very effective.
Or it suggests that for some people their skiing is a "work in progress" and that while they might have had lots of lessons they are still working towards being a better skier. I'm OK as a skier and can speak from extensive experience about the value of good lessons (and the futility of bad lessons). I don't profess to have perfect technique, and I am determined to get better as a skier, but that doesn't mean I'm unable to offer advice about the value of lessons.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
swiftoid wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
What I can see in this thread is people offering a range of opinions and advice, often based on personal experience, and not everyone agreeing with each other. It's up to the OP to take from that range of opinion what he likes. Surely that is the purpose of discussion forums?
Well, yes. That's exactly what's happening. I think everyone can see that.
My point is that I can't see anyone is this thread criticising anyone else, just offering a range of opinions and observations.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
swiftoid, the comments made about bad habits, tail tossing, shoulder swinging etc were in direct response to someone who asked for examples of bad habits. You are really nit-picking here. Are you also suggesting that only those with perfect technique should have a stab at identifying what a bad habit is? I'm really at a bit of a loss as to what point you're making, and why.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
pam w, no I'm not suggesting that or really trying to make any point. I'm simply trying to determine whether or not the oft repeated mantra of 'lessons!' is always the best answer and how effective they are at ironing out those bad habits. I've no way of knowing for sure but I'm guessing most skiers you see haven't had many lessons after they got to the stage of being able to get around the mountain on their own and so I'd hope taking loads of lessons after getting to that stage would normally result in a skier who is appreciably better than (what I'd guess is the majority) who have simply got out there, had fun, and got miles under their skis while consolodating what they've already learned and picking up tips from watching better skiers than themselves and maybe learning from videos/books too.
When I see someone really good effortlessly glide past me I can't really stop them and ask how they got so good so I was interested in seeing the results of many lessons from people I know have taken them. In these times of austerity I only have so much money I can spend on skiing so I'm trying to work out whether or not spending it on more trips without regular lessons or fewer trips with them would be better value (in terms of both having fun and continuing to improve).
swiftoid, that's a very important question - essentially, do (good) lessons make a difference? In my experience, yes, most certainly. I was stuck on what is often called the intermediate plateau. The only thing which helped me improve was lessons. I could stick up some video, but I'm not sure that would help answer your question as I wouldn't be able to post video of what I looked with the same amount of time on skis but without the benefit of lessons.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
swiftoid, lessons can only take you so far. The really important part is to actually practise what you learn in the lessons. Each, and every, time I put my skis on I will spend at least part of my day working on one or two aspects of my skiing.
Conscious practise is key (ie really be in the present and focus on what you are doing and what you are trying to achieve). Only work on one thing at a time. Stay with an exercise until you can do it as well as possible (ie don't move on to a harder exercise one until you have honestly mastered the easier drill). Video is a really useful tool (watch yourself ski, you will learn a lot). Have lessons with the best instructors. The EOSB in April is a great place to get excellent instruction at a reasonable price.
I'm guessing most skiers you see haven't had many lessons after they got to the stage of being able to get around the mountain on their own
swiftoid, I think it varies quite a bit. I get the impression from the French families who own apartments or holiday in my area that they send their kids to ski school for many formative years. The 3 daughters of my neighbour, for example, have all gone right through the ESF progression (the younger 2 still are). That's quite common. So by the time they are in their late teens they are really pretty nifty skiers. From comments elsewhere on Snowheads I also get the impression that the instruction at UCPA centres is very popular amongst both Scandinavian and French skiers - the top groups, especially the guided off piste groups, are really at a very high level.
Many Brits certainly tend to give up lessons at a fairly early stage and I'm certainly not suggesting that all French people ski really well - but they do tend to learn as children, and to put their kids into ski school even when they get pretty good. The best of the French kids in Alpine areas will also be recruited into a Club where anyone with any promise is pushed very hard indeed to perform (far too hard for the liking of some parents - one of my friends refused to let his lad get into the "next Olympic squad" game because he had seen too many youngsters pushed too hard, and a good many injured.
You don't have to be a brilliant skier to spot when other people are making mistakes - any more than you have to be a brilliant footballer to join in the after-match slanging in the pub, or an expert singer to know when somebody is singing flat. Spotting the good and the bad from the chairlift is a helpful way of improving your own skiing.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Elston,
Quote:
Video is a really useful tool (watch yourself ski, you will learn a lot).
I agree 100%. I think I've mentioned before how useful (and sometimes embarrasing ) I've found this. I find it so much easier to understand what I'm doing wrong when I can see it for myself. Also seeing any improvements is a great motivation to keep trying to get better.
Sadly I don't think I can stretch to this year's EoSB much as I'd like to. I'm heading off for my third trip this season on Sat despite really only intending going on one (or two at a push). Ooops
After all it is free
After all it is free
swiftoid wrote:
I'd be interested in seeing some video of the non-professional skiers posting on this thread (i.e. not instructors) who take lessons at every opportunity and have been doing so for years to see how they compare to the average joe you see on the slopes who doesn't bother doing so. Presumably it would be fairly obvious to see what all those lessons have given you that others don't have?
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
. And I did say, earlier in the thread, that a private lesson would be useful. But the majority of Brit holiday skiers just learn to ski the basics (2 or 3 weeks group instruction), then go on holiday to have a good time. So long as they are not dangerous, I don't see why we should criticize them for all their faults. It just seems a bit rude.
I'd love to see my own trajectory from Poppy Tailtosser (now that would be a good screen name, wouldn't it? 
) to...whatever it is now.
