 Poster: A snowHead
|
Bear with me, there is (some  ) method in the madness...
So, even with custom boot liners, I'm still ratcheting up the boots before skiing hard and slackening them off on the lift. It's better than it was, but it still hurts. It's tiring. And I'm not alone.
So, in discussion with others in this year's ski class, a quick brainstorm decided that WE ARE NOT IMPRESSED with the lack of innovation in the ski boot industry. Is this REALLY the best they can do?
And so, here are some ideas from complete amateurs, aka "customers".
We want boots which are hard when we ski hard, soft when on the lift. Doing and undoing is a pain.
Idea #1: Electronic boots. Like posh cars, your boots "remember" your hard and soft settings and react to that remote control in your pocket. Battery in the base of the shell, spiral electronic fittings to do the adjustment. Make it happen manufacturers.
Idea #2: Non-Newtonian fluid bootliners. A step up from e.g. Zipfits, these liners are filled with non-Newtonian fluid (such as, wait for it, uncooked imitation custard!). Why? Well, under shock this liquid temporarily becomes a solid. On the lift your boots are nice and comfy; blood returns, toes are warm. On skiing hard, the liner reacts to the shock and firms up letting you ski with more control. Make it happen manufacturers.
Idea #3: Vacuum liners. Filled with tiny polystyrene beads, this liner lets you put your boots on easily. When ready to ski, you pull a slider on the shell which evacuates the air in the liner conforming it exactly to your foot for that run. Quick to activate/deactivate, warm and cheap to make. Yes please manufacturers!
So, can we get some comfortable boots please? Other random ideas welcome!
(For your amusement, the next ideas are actual holiday fixes, McGyver-style -
1) Foil liners. Cold feet? Steal some foil from the chalet staff kitchen and tape across the toes and foot of your liners, double-layer. This actually worked rather well, for a whole week, before disintegrating!
2) Dry feet. Wet, smelly boots after skiing? Pre-ski, spray feet with cheap antiperspirant. We used Dr Scholl anti-bacterial antiperspirant. Works a treat!
Any top tips to add?)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Quote: |
Any top tips to add?
|
find another bootfitter?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
idea 4 - buy a pair of boots that fit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
What about boot liners like Boarders boots that you can walk about in and hard shells to step into and buckle up for skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I sorted my boots years ago and switched to Rossignol Soft ski boots, because I could never find a comfortable boot (they don't make them any more so I shall just hope my existing ones last a while) the leather upper part of the boot gives a comfortable fit around the lower leg whilst the rigid lower section transfers the loads to the skis, not perfect though, they are not really stiff enough for most people to ski at high speeds (even my top end Soft 1's) And only someone as stupid as myself would match them to GS race skis, but I have stupidly strong legs so I can cope, the same tree trunks that mean I have trouble getting boots to fit at the ankle mean that I have enough strength there to control race skis without relying on stiff ski boots to help.
Idea 1 might be possible, there are certainly materials whose properties can be varied by applying an electric current or charge to them
Idea 2 Relies on sharp impacts but I think in boots this would not occur, you are applying a constant high pressure to a single point rather than rapidly hammering at the same point, I might be wrong there.
Idea 3 Might be possible but most such systems use polystyrene balls which will deform under high pressures, but maybe if you could substitute in a firmer plastic instead also you could end up in a situation where every time you set the boots to ski mode you'd be standing in a slightly different stance.
Of the 3 ideas I think no 1 has the most potential
Idea 5 Combine Idea 1 with Less rigid shells if leather is not working (which I assume since Rossignol stopped working on Soft boots it isn't) Maybe a Softer Polymer might be available which would be more comfortable whilst at the same time allowing greater control of the skis
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Wobbler, my boots stay on the same ratchet all day, work fine for me, who fitted your boots???
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
NeddySkiGoon, Do you mean APEX boots?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
OP by the stance of the peer of the realm it appears he does.(see newspaper front page ref Green Prince)
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
D G Orf, if effort transmission from legs to skis is woefully inefficient, I doubt that it matters how strong your legs are.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You softees and your poncey custard. What's wrong with a boot full of cold sick from the night before 
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
under a new name, not sure I'd say woefully inefficient, just that soft ski boots are by their nature never going to be as stiff as hard plastic boots, for some people this is a problem, for others like myself it's not an issue, strong ankles (and to a lesser extent knees) from cycling around with my weight means I don't need the extra transmission a stiffer boot provides, on the other hand I do need blood flow to my feet which a stiffer boot often reduces
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Ah, now, IF your boots fit, congratulations! You lucky, lucky things! However, please don't think for a second that this means nobody else has an issue with boot fitting and let's face it, you will be wanting new (and maybe better?) boots in the future, won't you? 
Case in point; GF had boots fitted in resort on the last holiday. This year, crippling pain had her in tears. At the ski shop, the fitter there found the boot two sizes out! He explained that very few people in shops have the level of training necessary to correctly fit boots. Nice chap, certificates on the wall, sensible sounding. Naturally, she bought boots from him and enjoyed much more comfortable skiing. But here's the thing; they're still not 100% comfortable even fitting perfectly. Hence the wish to explore the art of the possible in this thread. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I like the idea of materials which change rigidity when a current is applied. I was actually thinking of something more primitive, where a grub drive/worm drive tightens/releases each clip. Some very simple electronic controlling would be able to remember the soft/hard settings and adjust accordingly. Any advance on this?
I love the idea of soft boots, but the Intermidiot in me still equates firmness with security. How could we get the rigidity/softness to switch when necessary?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Wobbler, Well early ski boots were made from leather (and were much lower in height on the leg) A good walking boot is still safe, the modern plastic boots post 1970's came about for several reasons, firstly and obviously mass producing plastic is much easier, but there is no reason why different materials can't be used. Another thing is that many of todays skiiers typically ski for far shorter periods maybe as little as one week (6 days) of skiing in a year, they need all the support they can get to muscles that don't normally do the sort of work skiing requires.
Cost will always be the deciding factor for manufacturers
The advantage an electronic setting has is that you could get the same settings on/off each and every time, repeatability is important otherwise you will be constantly adjusting your boots, I want a boot I can walk a few hundred yards in with no problem and then ski all day in, just loosening off at lunch time
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Take up snowboarding.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
My Salomon boots (c 2000) just changed had a device on the back to turn which is/was calibrated Walk - Ride - Attack. As far as I could tell when the boots were newish it tightened up an internal plate with success, although walking in ski boots is just not a good thing to do for the boots or for your feet. When the boots were worn out it might as well have read sloppy- uncomfortable - painful....
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
My boots are Atomic LiveFit 80s, and they have rubber bits on the side of the shell which allow your foot to expand. Works for me!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Quote: |
Case in point; GF had boots fitted in resort on the last holiday. This year, crippling pain had her in tears. At the ski shop, the fitter there found the boot two sizes out! He explained that very few people in shops have the level of training necessary to correctly fit boots. Nice chap, certificates on the wall, sensible sounding. Naturally, she bought boots from him and enjoyed much more comfortable skiing. But here's the thing; they're still not 100% comfortable even fitting perfectly. Hence the wish to explore the art of the possible in this thread.
|
the process is called boot fitting, it is a process not a 1 off experience, what do you consider 100% comfortable/perfectly fitting? maybe what you are looking to achieve is simply not possible, maybe the fault does not lie with the boot or the fitter but with the foot which is being put into the boot? there are a lot of factors to consider... fitness , flexibility, bio mechanics, hydration, skier ability, circulation, etc etc
i somehow don't thing we will see some of the dreamt up ideas in our lifetime but hey, you never know i guess if you have the money you can have anything you can dream about, But it will never be mass market due to cost
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Or go to a good fitter and MTFU? People's perceptions of discomfort vary.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Wobbler wrote: |
| Ah, now, IF your boots fit, congratulations! You lucky, lucky things! However, please don't think for a second that this means nobody else has an issue with boot fitting and let's face it, you will be wanting new (and maybe better?) boots in the future, won't you? |
Yes and I will go to a well known and trusted boot fitter. My boots took about 3 years of fettling before they were good for all day, that's after being fitted in resort and going back every day for 4 days having various things done to them.
I think you need to realise that everyone can get well fitted boots, but unless you have feet that perfectly fit a boot shape it takes
a) time
b) repeat visits with minor tweaks being made
c) the services of a well known, experienced boot fitter for the initial fit and the resulting fine tuning
regards,
Greg
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Wobbler, your idea #3 already exists - sort of. Instead of sucking air out, you pump it in. This has three benefits, first the liner will take the shape of your foot, second you can adjust the stiffness incrementally and last, it provides very good protection and prevents shin bang especially well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Wow! Some interesting comments here! A bit surprised actually - "I'm all right Jack" is quite an old fashioned point of view, don't you think?
Let's be clear - the process isn't perfect. This thread is about exploring how technology could improve the comfort and fit of ski boots, and isn't just a whinge-fest; we want to do something to improve matters. So, could I ask that "my boots are fine..." posts make way for "how about trying...?" posts - that way we may improve matters for everyone please? If you have no ideas then that's fine. This thread is the result of a group of skiers getting together and deciding that our boots aren't good enough - and a desire to do something about it.
CEM, all due respect to you (and we have spoken in the past), but boots aren't sold under the premise "you are beginning a journey...", and certainly not in resort. Yes, I know responsible boot fitters offer an after-sales service but what we are trying to get to is a state where this isn't necessary. Likewise, Greg - thanks for your input, but that's rather like "I have a great chiropractor - I've been going to him for years.". If the boots were built to adjust or fit appropriately, you wouldn't need three years to get a good fit. Just think; what is changing over those years - you, or the boot? And if it's the boot - wouldn't you rather that had been sorted on Day #1?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Wobbler, do you think the ski industry is hiding a revolutionary boot that does all the things you would like, or perhaps the boot manufacturers are colluding with each other to not invent anything new?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RattyTSR - interesting. I wonder if the inflation gives the stability required? Will Google!
The idea for evacuation comes from the mat they use in ambulances. A scoop stretcher + casualty is lowered onto a "bean bag", from which the air is evacuated. This molds into a rigid, supportive shape, hence the idea for boot liners.
Shins seem to take a bashing. I wonder if the stuff they stick TEMS pads onto you with would be good as skiing shin guards?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| CEM wrote: |
i somehow don't thing we will see some of the dreamt up ideas in our lifetime but hey, you never know i guess if you have the money you can have anything you can dream about, But it will never be mass market due to cost |
You know, at one point, people said the same about cars.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Wobbler, Stroltz may be the boot for you, if you have £1000 to play with, otherwise I agree with Greg, it's an empirical thing IMO, you think the latest F1 car just came out of the box?....no it's a development process, likewise you tweak and give feedback to the techs who understand the product, they fettle the boot and you go back making minor incremental changes until you get what you want.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Interesting. Google says £650 though? Good suggestion.
We have 3D laser scanners now - maybe this is a good progression from a simple footbed measurement? Likewise, we have 3D printers - I wonder if a more anatomically accurate "last" could be created from which a better moulding of the liner could be made?
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Mon 11-03-13 23:45; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Wobbler, Fischer do a vacuum boot, also the £650 I believe is "entry level", thereafter it's bells and whistles that get you climbing towards £1000 I believe, could be wrong but I understand there are various levels.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Wobbler, the issue is that you are dealing with the human foot, each one is as unique as the person it is attached to and you are putting it into something which is mass produced at a price that people (for the most part) are willing to pay
if "your group of friends who are not satisfied" are that keen to do something, buy a ski boot company, plenty of them out there, then you will be in a position to understand that they are all trying to make boots fit better but are restricted by current technology and costs, you might make it 1/2 way through a season before you ran out of funds.
3d laser scanners have been used in orthotic manufacturer for a number of years, the results can be as variable as the old methods mostly due to a 3d scanner not being able to determine soft tissue compression ratios
| Quote: |
Yes, I know responsible boot fitters offer an after-sales service but what we are trying to get to is a state where this isn't necessary.
|
so you are going back to the early 80's when boot fitting wasn't really available to the masses and you picked the boot off the shelf and just got on with it, perhaps sticking a bit of sticky foam to the liner around an ankle bone
the only thing that has moved on is the quality of the foams being used, the boot fitter is simply there to expedite the process of selection
for the most part people going to a boot fitter have a reasonable experience, certainly better than walking into A.N Other ski shop , they might need a few adjustments here and there but the start is normally a good point to work from, so why aren't all shops getting the start right, which to be honest is what this is all about.... if everyone who bought boots knew that they may need a small adjustment but the start point was very close then there would be a lot less problems out there....BUT not all shop owners can see the benefit of training staff to a really good, seasonal staff leave in december just after you have invested in training so the shop owner simply doesn't bother.
there is that other thing that i mentioned in the earlier post.... the human foot/body
everyone is different in terms of biomechnics, flexibility, tolerance to compression/fit and of course there is the BS factor that boot fitters are better at sniffing out than the average member of retail shop staff ... how many weeks have you skied? 1,...... how many weeks do you ski each season? 1 ....what level of run are you happiest on? BLACK......what are your aspirations as a skier? "already and advanced skier thank you!" (YES THAT WAS WRITTEN ON AN EVAL FORM)
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
I think there's also an issue of need - I mean, how many people who ski actually need a new technology at the price it will cost? The vast majoirity of skiers ski at a level that does not require any high tech solution and are perfectly happy with what they have already. Some unfortuante soles (sorry, getting coat) need help but, lets face it, these are a minority. The discomfort I get results in waiting for the boots to pack down a little, badly chosen boots (no Salomons anymore for me) or the fact that I am suddenly slamming G's on to feet that mainly sit behind a desk. No tech solution short of innovative bio-surgery is going to cure those ills. So the real problem is need. As CEM says new foam is being invented all the time and this seems to fill the niche. I think it would be brave for anyone to step up (sorry again) to some of the solutions you are suggesting since the possible market is quite limited. Most of the innovation seems to be directed towards the shell shape/tounge or new foams (e.g. the stuff that makes the Fischer vacuum system work).
p.s. the air tech I was referring to is so old that it must be out of IP protection now and Technica are currently using it across their range but it is originally a Nordica innovation. I'm a huge fan of it and still wonder why it did not catch on more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Quote: |
I'm a huge fan of it and still wonder why it did not catch on more.
|
Punctures? And perhaps an impermeable layer in the boot layer may make them a bit sweaty.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
beequin, one puncture in 20 years of use, repaired. And the boot was still very useable. You mean impermeable like the shell of a boot? Yeah, don't see that being a major turn off, foam's air impermeable anyway so moisture is trapped in a normal boot.
One other plus, the additional air works as an excellant insualtor so the boots do get warm.
The other great innovation that also seems to have disappeared was the heel strap they added to the boot. There was a micro ratchet that pulled a band on the inside of the shell tight when you wound it. It was placed over the outside angle of the foot and would pull your heel into a heel trap at the back of the boot. Properly adjusted it meant that it was impossible to get heel lift. It really helped me improve my skiing. I'd still be skiing those boots if they were taller and had adjustable cant and lean.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Mmmmmmm....custard on apple fritters at Brandegg. Prefer it on a plate. Tastes bad from my boots.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RattytheSnowRat, I remember such a strap in my old SX72s. It was a bit restrictive on the tendons.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think it depends on what you need from a boot. If you are an instructor in them or a higher level skier spending weeks and weeks skiing each year (or someone with particularly awkward feet) then I think the 'boot fitting process' must be the way forwards - you need fit, you can probably appreciate performance and in terms of time vs ski days can probably afford to revisit a fitter to ensure you are set up with every nicety.
I don't fall into the above group. I am an intermediate holiday skier - I get two separate weeks a year if I am lucky. I don't want to waste these in boots that don't fit or don't perform, but neither can I afford the time for multiple visits back to a shop to ensure that every nicety has it's box ticked. I am not about to buy a pair of boots online (regardless of the financial temptation to do so - I could have £90 recently by doing that, which is a bit of a ouch and a whole ski lesson!) - I've spent too long on SH's for that - however, when I look at that £90 I could wish I was less well informed!!
What I need is a trip to a shop a word with someone that knows something about the process, some assistance with picking a suitable boot (I don't know which last I need and what level of boot is best - that's where that £90 comes in) and then that boot fitted as comfortably as possible in a single visit. Go ski for a week and see what it is like and maybe a second visit if it is necessary, but I'd try to avoid that visit if possible. Now I might not end up with boots that tick all the exacting criteria of the multiple weeks per year skier, but I'll probably end up with boots, that perform enough for me for two weeks skiing at my level, and are comfy for my couple of weeks skiing.
I think there is def. a difference between what the holiday skier want, and what a multiple weeks a year skier wants and what they will put the effort in to achieve for 7-14 days on the slopes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
beequin, I didn't/don't have any problem with it. My front tendons are relaxed as I am leaning forward anyway and the rear tendons fit nicely into the slot designed for them and don't get restricted as the strap does not bite on them. I skiied these boots to death and am now trying to resurect them - if I can. A nice SnowHead tried to help recently because he thought his old man still had a pair but it turned out to be a wild boot chase {sigh}.
If any one knows of any Nordica Syntech Air's going (pref mondo 27.5/2 give me a shout otherwise it's Zombistein boot time (where I fit non-standard bits and raise it from the dead!)
Megamum, seems like you agree with my points above in the main. The one thing I would prehaps disagree with is that I think the ski instructor has two sometimes conflicting drives (i) freebies - they get offered and take what they are given by the big ski companies and (ii) comfort has got to be a priority if you are in your boots as much as they are. I ahve seen some instructors in custom Austrian boots but in the main they stick to the freebies.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
RattytheSnowRat, Do instructors really get offered freebies? There are a great deal of them, and would have thought that provision of their own skis and boots came with the territory. I can understand perhaps their uniforms being handed out/paid for by the ski schol, but I am surprised by your comment which suggests that freebie boots (and maybe skis?) are common place as I didn't expect that to be the case.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
