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Ski touring performance - weight penalty?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
So what is the penalty in performance of a freeride rig eg 2kg ski, 1kg binding (eg shift), 2kg boot vs an (affordable) skimo setup 1.3kg ski, 500g Tech binding, 1.3kg boot?

Sure some of you guys have both and Strava’d it or similar for comparison?
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@BobinCH,

don't know how to quantify it, I'd just say that if you skin from 2500m to 3500m you'll be having a lot more fun on the latter. Of course you'll have a bit more fun coming down on the former. But it will be for a tenth of the time... personal choice. Suffice to say I've never seen a guide opting for the heavier option for that kind of outing.
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@BobinCH, I’m never trying to do a climb as fast as I can so no meaningful comparison
Some of my setups are noticeably different so that must have some effect on my speed (or lack of)
Planning to do the Patrouille on your Lotus 124s?
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@BobinCH, coincidence you posted that!

Yesterday I used my lighter ski touring set-up, Scott Powd'Air & Vipecs (100 wide 183 long) as opposed to my Blackcrows 184 108 wide & Tectons (same MTL Lab boots) and OH used her lighter touring setup as well and it was noticeably easier for the both of us, no great surprise really rolling eyes

Plus snow was a lot lighter easier to skin through as opposed to the last three sorties over the past week where I've been breaking trail and ending up with around 3kgs of snow on top of each ski (was not uber light powder), I even waxed the top sheet of one ski to see if that made any difference for the build-up of snow.

I do prefer a more downhill orientated setup, and in the likes of Japan and Siberia, the Blackcrows setup was fine, probably also helped by a guide breaking trail.

I do have a light SuperGuide 88's setup with Dynafiddles and I only use them in Spring, as well as some K2 115 Coombacks with Dynafiddles but I opt now for the BC's over those.

When I'm on week-long hut to hut or like I was this year at nigh on 4,000m then light is obviously the best option, that said I still opt for around 95mm waist as do all the guides I know and all the Scandis I tour with.

A mate of mine has gone down the stupidly light route (not quite ski mo) but he is also doing a lot of ski mountaineering.

Only sensible way is to have more than one pair of touring skis Laughing

Should also add ski choice will often depend on who I'll be touring with, whether I'm the guy being pinged out the back or the strongest as well as snow-pack etc
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I think more if it in terms of vertical (I'm 100% not trying to be fastest haha!). 1000 vert metres (+/-) I find fine on a freeride-y set up. Much over 1200m vert the effort of lugging it up outweighs the better ski down for me. My gf would probably rather that tradeoff came earlier so she doesn't have to wait as long for me though wink (I reckon she's to blame for that by running 15k every single morning!)
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Arno wrote:
@BobinCH, I’m never trying to do a climb as fast as I can so no meaningful comparison
Some of my setups are noticeably different so that must have some effect on my speed (or lack of)
Planning to do the Patrouille on your Lotus 124s?


Haha not quite stupid enough for that but almost... I have a pair of Blizzard Rustler 11’s mounted with Shifts and K2 Pinnacle 130 Freeride boots. I’m doing the short version of the PdG but it’s still about 2000m of climbing over 6-7 hours. I don’t want to buy a new rig just for this but don’t want it to be such a struggle that I don’t enjoy it.... maybe I’ll just borrow/rent some light skis and use my boots. Used 90mm waisted Crusairs with DF Titans last time and was fine but I was fitter and 10 years younger....
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BobinCH wrote:
So what is the penalty in performance of a freeride rig eg 2kg ski, 1kg binding (eg shift), 2kg boot vs an (affordable) skimo setup 1.3kg ski, 500g Tech binding, 1.3kg boot?

Sure some of you guys have both and Strava’d it or similar for comparison?


Are you talking up or down? I'd worry about your own weight before the gear. Skin quality will also make a big difference but hell 5kg on each foot plus skins (which are heavy) is going to have an impact if you are doing any kind of distance. In a competition you'll have a well packed route to follow, which will make life nicer.

This 300 meter climb I've done in 11 minutes which would get your 2000m done in about an hour and a half Happy...

https://www.strava.com/activities/244104380#11436795720

Happy

but that was on very firm spring snow (which makes a big difference) and I was fitter. More realistically these days it is more like 20 minutes on normal freerando gear (1.4kg skis, 300g dyna bindings and 1.4kg boots), about one hour for the 800 meter climb but I couldn't do 2000m at the same speed. With your gear and 2000 meters, I dunno, it is going to be a challenge. To descend you still need to have a bit of strength left.

I'd expect a skimo rig to weigh less than that, you are into freerando territory there.

What speed do you normally climb at?


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 14-11-19 14:27; edited 1 time in total
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@BobinCH, it’s a team event right? If it was me and I knew I’d be the slowest (likely in my case Laughing ) I’d probably want all the help I could get. If there’s someone slower less of a big deal
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@davidof, jeeeessss nearly all the climbing I do, be it with a guide or without is all around a max of 400m per hour no where near 800m an hour!

Old Farts are us Laughing
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davidof wrote:


What speed do you normally climb at?


No idea! Last time I think we finished in 6 hours and were in the top 25% despite being on freeride gear but we were really fit. It’s over 25km so several transitions and some long flat poling sections. The K2 boots are seriously bulky - will see if I can find some lighter ones from last years models. I can always rent/borrow skis.
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3 years ago we hired a local guide for a day's touring from Vent, near Obergurgl.

I was very surprised to see him on Fritschi Diamir (non-pin) bindings and when I asked him why, like other guides, he didn't have an ultralight set up he replied, "because I am strong enough to tour with these." Very Happy Very Happy
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Weathercam wrote:
@davidof, jeeeessss nearly all the climbing I do, be it with a guide or without is all around a max of 400m per hour no where near 800m an hour!

Old Farts are us Laughing


snow conditions make a big difference, those skimo guys get their trails prepared, either by piste basher or skiers sent out to tamp everything down. You then have to factor in technical difficulties, altitude etc. It is like the difference between climbing an 8% slope on a nice road bike and climbing the same hill, off road, on an mtb.

The segment I posted is under a ski lift, so they bash it and the snow is nice to climb on.... when the lift isn't running.


Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 14-11-19 16:10; edited 1 time in total
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BobinCH wrote:
davidof wrote:


What speed do you normally climb at?


No idea! Last time I think we finished in 6 hours and were in the top 25% despite being on freeride gear but we were really fit. It’s over 25km so several transitions and some long flat poling sections. The K2 boots are seriously bulky - will see if I can find some lighter ones from last years models. I can always rent/borrow skis.


Your set up sounds a bit heavy to me, as I said I'm not sure I'd like to cover that distance on it. 1000-1200 meters no worries but 2000m is quite a lot.

I bet your previous top 25% time pissed some off the rando lycra louts off.
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@davidof, possibly. They certainly didn’t appreciate a few close shaves as we straight lined the descents!

Will get out on the heavy rig this weekend. Let’s see if the cycling fitness transfers to the high alpine!
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I'm interested in this as well. I haven't toured a lot, but what I have done has been on a heavier setup, and I've done what I can to ditch weight from my bag etc. instead. I can see that I'll be doing more, especially if it's easier. Fitness wasn't great last season, after sitting around for a couple of months with a broken leg Confused I've been dragging myself and my bike up mountains all summer though, so it should be better now, though I'm not doing daily 15k runs or any such nonsense Laughing

Currently on:
Scott Superguide 95 168cm: 1.1kg (approx coz I can't quite remember but I think they were the same as the binding)
F12 Tour small: 1.1kg
Alpine boots: 1.9kg
Total: 4.1kg + whatever the skins weigh

I save a little bit of weight because my kit is smaller, but arguably it makes more of a difference to me because I don't weigh much more than 50kg – it's almost 20% of my bodyweight extra altogether.

Going to see a bootfitter for some touring boots in the next week or two, and then I'll get a lighter touring binding as well (not sure which one yet, as it depends on hole clash on the Superguides). Going from frame to pin should help too.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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As I recall Swirly and I headed over from Nendaz that morning expecting to see team Bob finish and found them already in the bar. Weren’t you something like the second fastest team down from col de la Chaux?

Anyhow, short answer: buy lighter gear. Or at least QK the rustlers for a lightweight binding and take 500g off per foot relative to the shifts.

That will screw the resale value but I assume you were going to thrash them until they explode anyway.
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@Scarlet, I have the Superguide 87 in 177 as my lightweight spring/drag up on an ice climb ski. I can heartily recommend Dynafit Superlite bindings. Under 200g per foot (I have the same bindings on my most of the time touring ski; Salomon mtn Tour 95's). They are almost weightless.

Having used Marker F10 myself previously they are chalk and cheese. The Dynafit's probably add 100m an hour to your long trip climbing rates and (to my ski senses) ski just as well.

There is a very interesting item on Blister where each of their main reviewers sets out their individual philosophies on where and how to save weight in your touring set up. I am more attuned to the approach involving putting your heft into skis and boots (which [arguably] contributes most to pleasurable downhill). For that I am prepared to theoretically sacrifice some increased risk of injury in the event of an accident with helium filled bindings. The Salomon Shift crowd no doubt have a different take on that.
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@BobinCH, It's not an easy and direct comparison, because apart from vertical, also depends on the tour, but I guess it isn't proportional, more in an exponential way Sad
Is not only the weight, but also the length make difference, this probably 10cm more in front of you will have an impact doing kick turns
IMO Actually there are a lot of freerando setups (95-100mm) 1.3-1.5kg + 300-400gr bindings if you never tried before you will be surprised how performant they are.

Also, as commented before, skins are normally underestimated, and not only the weight but the glide (more taken into account that will be a "carpet" tracked and prepared).
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Ok so if I throw money at the problem what would the ideal setup look like?
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Quote:
So what is the penalty in performance of a freeride rig eg 2kg ski, 1kg binding (eg shift), 2kg boot vs an (affordable) skimo setup 1.3kg ski, 500g Tech binding, 1.3kg boot?


General rule of thumb is that x1kg carried on foot is equivalent to x3kg in back-pack.

Your example above : the free-ride set up is 5kg per foot.
The light set up could be 3kg per foot.

The difference (2x 2kg) is equivalent to carrying 4L bottles of coke in your backpack.
Might be ok on a short skin. But over a longer day (1000m ascent) you would feel it!

Quote:
IMO Actually there are a lot of freerando setups (95-100mm) 1.3-1.5kg + 300-400gr bindings if you never tried before you will be surprised how performant they are.


^ This.

For a dedicated touring ski I reckon 1.5kg and 90-100mm is the sweet spot.
There are recently some great skis in this weight range (Salomon Mtn Explore / Blizzard Zero G / Movement Apex etc).
Light enough to skip up hill but still fun to ski downhill in typical touring conditions.
You can buy lighter skis than this - but they will suck downhill : kick turning on way down not a good vibe Wink
Also - very light / stiff skis tend to get deflected around by choppy snow. So actually there is argument for something light but not super-stiff.

Key place to save weight on a touring ski, for little performance loss, is the binding.
I am massive fan of the classic Dynafit TLT (though Marker Alpinist look great).
Minimalist perfection and bomb-proof at just 300g a ski.
Remember than 90% of time you will be going uphill wink

Finally boots : 1.2-1.5kg is the sweet spot.
Similar comments to the skis. If you go too light (<1kg) then performance on downhill drops off!

Of course my comments above for a fun-touring set up that you will enjoy skiing.
But many doing the Patrouille de Glacier seriously will just care about time rather than the journey.
Hence the lycra and ski-mo misery sticks.
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@BobinCH, this is my ideal fast and light set up , but still with and eye on the down , kastle tx 98 ski , Fischer travers boots , tecton binding , g3 alpinist + speed skins , and BD carbon poles

skis/bindings and boots are 2.82 kg per foot
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Haggis_Trap wrote:

For a dedicated touring ski I reckon 1.5kg and 90-100mm is the sweet spot.
There are recently some great skis in this weight range (Salomon Mtn Explore / Blizzard Zero G / Movement Apex etc).
Light enough to skip up hill but still fun to ski downhill in typical touring conditions.
You can buy lighter skis than this - but they will suck downhill : kick turning on way down not a good vibe Wink
Also - very light / stiff skis tend to get deflected around by choppy snow. So actually there is argument for something light but not super-stiff.


100% agree.
IMO, top3 in that range:
Salomon MTN Explore95 (1,4kgs)
Dynastar Mythic 97 Pro (1,35kgs)
Black Crows Camox Freebird (1,45kgs)

If you want something wider (>100) I read a lot of good opinions on Majesty supernova SL (1,5kgs) or the new Blizzard Zero G105 (1,55kg). But both fo them just add 200gr more.

Bindings: I'm a big fan of ATK, reliable, light, and really IMO with the best engineering. I've experienced before some prereleases with dynafit, that made me ski more cautios and with the toes blocked. With ATK (I use raider fr14) I feel very sure, ski also inbounds or hardpack without blocking toes, really confident. If now I was looking for another set without doubt I'll repeat with new FR14 ones.

Skins, I like Pomoca. Choose some with 70%-30% mix like the Climb Pro s-glide or the new Free pro 2.0 and cannot be bad Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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"because I am strong enough to tour with these."-this! if you are fit you have nothing to worry about, it is not a race, is it?
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@kedsky, it’s for the Patrouille des Glaciers so it is a race
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BobinCH wrote:
Ok so if I throw money at the problem what would the ideal setup look like?



This? (It's the all-in-one lycra fart bag that makes all the difference wink )

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Bergmeister wrote:
3 years ago we hired a local guide for a day's touring from Vent, near Obergurgl.

I was very surprised to see him on Fritschi Diamir (non-pin) bindings and when I asked him why, like other guides, he didn't have an ultralight set up he replied, "because I am strong enough to tour with these." Very Happy Very Happy


You know, that is obviously true - guides are fit enough to use heavy kit. But I am much more struck by the fact that DESPITE THAT most of them are weight weanies. I sometime think there is sort of professional competition between them to see who can carry the smallest rucsac while still having everything they need to sort out feckless clients Very Happy
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Quote:

For a dedicated touring ski I reckon 1.5kg and 90-100mm is the sweet spot.
There are recently some great skis in this weight range (Salomon Mtn Explore / Blizzard Zero G / Movement Apex etc).
Light enough to skip up hill but still fun to ski downhill in typical touring conditions.
You can buy lighter skis than this - but they will suck downhill : kick turning on way down not a good vibe
Also - very light / stiff skis tend to get deflected around by choppy snow. So actually there is argument for something light but not super-stiff.

Key place to save weight on a touring ski, for little performance loss, is the binding.
I am massive fan of the classic Dynafit TLT (though Marker Alpinist look great).
Minimalist perfection and bomb-proof at just 300g a ski.


I pretty much agree with that. Personally I'd go a bit narrower for a pure spring hut to hut set up but then while I'm pretty fit, I'm stronger downhill than uphill. While I might have a bit more fun on 98mm waist I'm very comfortable in soft snow on 88mm (and would even prefer 88mm when it is steep and icy).
I've gone for Scott Superguide 88 and Marker Alpinists.
My touring boots are about 1500g which is mid-weight really. I thought I might use them for more general skiing but they don't give me enough support. Honestly they are a bit "stuck in the middle" and I'd go lighter for a pure touring boot.
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^ true. 90mm is fine for most touring conditions. Wider skis have more weight and also friction from the skins on way up.
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jedster wrote:
You know, that is obviously true - guides are fit enough to use heavy kit. But I am much more struck by the fact that DESPITE THAT most of them are weight weanies.

It's not so much of some competition but thing, which is not really so easy to understand to someone who goes skiing one week a season. They need to do this every day, from November or December till May in good or bad conditions with old fat uncapable of walking and skiing clients and with super fit all hyped young guys who can outski them any day. While they can keep up with most of clients easily even with heavy gear for a day, there's no way to do this day in and day out. So once you are doing this for living and you are out there everyday, you forget about fun part and just concentrate to get through as easy as possible and be as rested as possible next day. And super light equipment help with this.
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@primoz,

yes that makes a lot of sense

The guide we were climbing with in the summer met us straight from guiding a group on a 6 day tour of Monte Rosa. Then he did 6 days with us climbing easy 4000m peaks around Saas. The day he left us he was getting back to Chamonix to start a "climb Mont Blanc" week the next day. Even if you are very fit, that risks a lot of wear and tear on knees, ankles etc and cutting the weight must make a difference over a hard season.
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 Poster: A snowHead
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I had the chance to talk to Leo Slemett this evening (at the Volleges film festival) about what kit he used on a recent trip to the Hunza region in Pakistan, scoring 6000m peaks. He used his standard freeride skis (albeit mounted with tech bindings), and Tecnica zero-g boots. His view was that he wasn’t putting in all that effort to get to the top to then have to ski down on some shitty skis!
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@BobinCH, my thoughts exactly! My lightest skis are Faction CT 3.0 108mm with Dynafit Speed Turns on, light enough on the up and awesome on the down Very Happy


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 18-11-19 16:51; edited 1 time in total
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i cant give exact figures just real life leg feelings. Touring 1 day on volkl 90eights with dynafit beasts then touring the following day on Atomic backland 85s with dynafit superlite 2's. It was like cheating on day 2 as if i were floating up the mountain.
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@BobinCH, I agree on that. I still use super light (for me) Rossi Seek7 for days days when conditions are hard, icy or it smells as spring, but when there's powder, I have no problems going far up with my Rossi Super7 RD and Marker Duke. It's worth dragging that weight up once terrain turns downhill... well at least for me. Very Happy But my "normal" ski is still Rossi Soul7 with Look ST10 (Dynafit Speed turn 2 painted in Look colors), which is not super heavy buy also not super light.
I would have some numbers from Polar how much time it would take up the same hill with Super7 and with Seek7 but it's irrelevant, as it also depends on this how hard I was pushing that day, and what kind of conditions they were. Days I have on Seek7 are much faster up, not just because of skis, but due snow conditions, as those when I'm on Super7 and knee deep in fresh snow, so it's pretty much impossible to say. But yeah weight matters a lot.
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Ski touring when it comes to climbing, some of the parameters in road cycling up mountains must be the same; if you're on the large frame heavy side (90kg+) that's going to be more restrictive in performance than a 65kg lightweight?

And obviously fitness comes into it far more along with altitude acclimatisation, I often see the wheels fall off someone be it cycling/ski touring from around 2,200m on their first couple of sorties.

Weight of pack is another factor, you very rarely see experienced ski tourers with ABS packs/helmets even on day tours, but you'll see plenty of tourists with them.

That said I know quite a few guides that are built like feckin tanks, but they are very strong.

This week I was touring with a highly experienced female who can out ski many a man and we were chatting away about kit, and like many an experienced skier she's not a gear junkie walking text book of the latest must have innovations etc and she just takes the view that most hold on here, something around 100 with tech bindings that is not too heavy on the up but is great for the down, and like most that will be her gear of choice when not touring.

The above is all very well for European Alps, this time last year I was touring in Siberia and most people had 110+ and when we go touring in Japan next year I'll probably go 115 Coomback's with Dynafit.

Key difference in Siberia and Japan (Hokkaido) is that you are not at altitude and many ascents are only 500-600m (you tend to do two ascents a day), and snow is so light plus you're not breaking trail.

Day off today after six sorties in the past ten days, yesterday was on my own and went at pace (500m per hour) for 2hr 15m and I'm now the proud owner of a blister on each foot, which is what tends to happen when working hard and sweaty feet, the resultant callouses should be good for the rest of the season though Laughing
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primoz wrote:
jedster wrote:
You know, that is obviously true - guides are fit enough to use heavy kit. But I am much more struck by the fact that DESPITE THAT most of them are weight weanies.

It's not so much of some competition but thing, which is not really so easy to understand to someone who goes skiing one week a season. They need to do this every day, from November or December till May in good or bad conditions with old fat uncapable of walking and skiing clients and with super fit all hyped young guys who can outski them any day. While they can keep up with most of clients easily even with heavy gear for a day, there's no way to do this day in and day out. So once you are doing this for living and you are out there everyday, you forget about fun part and just concentrate to get through as easy as possible and be as rested as possible next day. And super light equipment help with this.


Hmm. I've a week and a few days ski touring - problems with boots and achilles tendon scars, plus being on the edge of required fitness put an end to further touring, despite my enjoyment. However, the physics says that ski weight matters. As your skis are going up the hill they are gaining potential energy. And the source of that energy is you. Of course being fit and keeping your weight down is a must. But once you turn up at the foot of the hill, you are stuck with the weight and fitness standard you have - then light kit weight helps. For my week's touring I remember I hired some Stokli skis, which were light yet torsionally stiff. I recall skiing down a long descent ranging from ice to breakable crust though to deep powder. The skis were spot on for the job.
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Quote:

And obviously fitness comes into it far more along with altitude acclimatisation, I often see the wheels fall off someone be it cycling/ski touring from around 2,200m on their first couple of sorties.


This is a key point to me. If you don't live in the mountains and you rock up to do some ski-touring involving skinning above 3000m, even if you are fit you are likely to be butting up against your aerobic threshold at some point (especially if you are following some UIAGM racing snake with ruthlessly weight optimised gear). In my experience, going lighter means that you spend less time at your limit which makes the whole thing more fun.
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Did another tough tour in deep snow on Monday and well fecked again breaking trail, maybe not fully recovered from the Saturday?

Today we opted for touring (8th of this Snovember) up the pistes that were being prepared for Montgenevre's early opening this weekend.

With that in mind, I quickly waxed my Superguide 88's & Dynafit ST's (one minus the brake) and what a difference.

With the bashed piste only had to use a heel lift when it was really steep, and my HR was nigh on 20bpm down on my recent averages.

We skied back down the corduroy of the piste which was quite a nice change and the dogs were happy with the going good to firm Laughing

Anyway, I've just ordered up the new Diamir Xenic 10 to replace my 2nd generation Vipecs, though appreciate unlike the Tecton holes not the same these will go on my Powdairs for the time being.

One of the plus points I've read about the Xenic's is their ease of entry in super-soft snow, unlike my Tourettes inducing Vipecs Laughing
snow report
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Daily setup 1.7kg ski 1kg binding (F10) 1.5kg boot. (Roxa RX3)

Rando. 1.3kg ski 185 g binding (plum) 1.1kg boot (Roxa RX1)

300m and 400m an hour at the moment. More the stride efficiency than the weight.

Bear in mind my daily setups uphill capacity is just in case not intended for long haul.

If I am going up but need more performance down. Ski are the first change then boots, the bindings are last to go, heavy.
ski holidays
 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@Idris, excellent! So going from 4.2kg per foot frame to 2.5kg pin brings a 33% improvement.

Anyone else? Come on @Weathercam do some experiments for us on your 17 different setups Very Happy
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