 Poster: A snowHead
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| jibber wrote: |
Maybe the title is wrong
Warning for beginners - make sure you instructor is actually an instructor. |
+1
I think the a "friend of a friend of my sister" line says it all. I guess you wouldn't take Karate lessons on that basis.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sorry about your injury hope you recover well. Beginning to ski should be done on beginners equipment and have it set up by the shop. At beginner speeds there can simply be not enough force to make some bindings release. This is not a rare mistake. I saw a couple in the ski shop setting bindings to the boots and when the girl was asked some stats, she said she had never skied before and her boyfriend would take her to the nursery slopes. Well, the skis that she brough were some older Salomon race skis from ebay with metal bindings that will simply never release - they didn't even have appropriate DIN settings. And she just refused to listen to any advice guys in the shop tried to give her. I wonder if her ligaments were still attached after the holiday.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Badgerpig wrote: |
| jibber wrote: |
Maybe the title is wrong
Warning for beginners - make sure you instructor is actually an instructor. |
+1
I think the a "friend of a friend of my sister" line says it all. I guess you wouldn't take Karate lessons on that basis. |
3 pages in a nutshell
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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albinomountainbadger, Well stating weight lower than actual will result in a smaller DIN but low DIN + high speed = "walking out" of skis.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm far from an expert (either skier or ski tech), but my innate distrust of 'professionals' working in rental shops leads me to double check bindings thus:
1. With foot in boot ensure heel releases by leaning as far forward as possible (one foot at a time, maybe need someone standing on tail of ski)
2. With foot out smack front of boot with palm of hand to ensure toe releases (needs a good hard smack this one).
Hardly a calibrated test, but at least I know the bindings release somewhere within the limits of my own personal physique.
YMMV.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Not sure about #1.....
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| martinm wrote: |
| Not sure about #1..... |
As I said I'm not an expert! But very interested in your opinion, are you saying this test is too applying too little, or too much, pressure on the binding?
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| Zero-G wrote: |
OliviaDB, from a lateral view, women tend to angle their pelvis backwards, basically creating more arch in the lumbar spine and sticking their bums out. Men tend to angle their pelvis forwards, thus tucking their bums and sticking their genitals out, so to speak.
In skiing terms, tucking your pelvis (and bottom) in, seems to change how you balance over your skis.
Here's an experiment: stand in a neutral position with your feet at hip width. Now, bend your knees like you do when you're skiing and lean forwards slightly. Stick your bum out (you can exaggerate this). Now, tuck your bum in (sort of like trying to pull the bottom of your pelvic bone towards your belly button), again, exaggerate this. Notice how you feel more stable when your bum is tucked in and bottom of the pelvis is angled forward? Perhaps this is because your abdominal muscles are more engaged when the pelvis is tucked forward... I don't know but it definitely completely changes how stable I feel when skiing really steep pitches – I have way more control.
Crotch shots are for another forum entirely  |
Interesting. I actually have weird lower back issues, and do naturally stick my back bottom out too much, so when I remember make a point of trying to tilt my pelvis more forwards (eases back ache issues). So perhaps I'm doing this naturally. Unnaturally. Sometimes doing it.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| kerb wrote: |
| martinm wrote: |
| Not sure about #1..... |
As I said I'm not an expert! But very interested in your opinion, are you saying this test is too applying too little, or too much, pressure on the binding? |
I'm no expert either. But I've never heard of that release mode.
I'm under the impression bindings only release sideways. The only exception I heard of is a toe release, which happens when the skier leanning BACK...
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If the bindings release that way then I'd expect a lot more force to be required to do so than in your test.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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martinm, It would depend on what din he set them on
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Had a woman in the shop once who would clip into one ski on the carpet then kick her foot with the free one to see if the binding released. It did and she promptly fell on the floor, before repeating on the other foot and falling down again. This result seemed to please her and, having informed me she was an ex-instructor, she paid and left. Takes all sorts...
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 6-03-13 18:04; edited 1 time in total
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I think you are still confused. Your boots being tight will have no relevance to the tightness of your bindings. There are standard charts for the DIN settings that a hire shop set the ski bindings too. It is the bindings on your skis that are adjusted not your boots.
There are simple lessons that are nothing to do with checking that you bindings are not set too tight - as much as anything else unless you looked up on the correct charts you would never know.
I feel very sorry for you but would suggest some different lessons, similar to others advice:
1) Only use a properly qualified instructor
2) Only use a reputable ski hire shop to get ski equipment fitted
3) Never use a friend of a friend for ski lessons or blagging stuff.
p.s. Have you thought about your ski insurance (assuming you have it) suing him for damages for supplying dangerous goods. Assuming you were told by someone who really did know what they were talking about that they were adjusted incorrectly for your height, weight and boot size.
| proteus wrote: |
| jibber wrote: |
Am a little confused here. Your instructor lent you some bindings and boots you say. So you had your own skis and just needed boots and bindings? Who was this instructor? From the ski school? Properly qualified?
As far as I would be concerend a beginner should go to the hire shop and give their details to the people in the shop so that the correct settings can be set for the individual. Also gives you a chance to try on various types of boot to get a decent fit.
Does sound like this was all carried out by friends of friends who cobbled together some kit and someone to teach you and sent you up the mountain.
Sorry to hear of your injury but maybe a little research (and perhaps new friends?) would have been advisable in hindsight? |
No, it was all lent to me by the instructor, boots and skis. He wasn't set up in any ski school, just someone who was a friend of a friend of my sisters.
I had gone out intending to go to the hire shop but he lent me his when I turned up, although as I say they were a bit too tight so I tried the hire shop anyway. I have to say, the hire shop didn't offer any alternatives to the tight fitting ones I tried on and I would have obviously liked to have got a pair that fitted, but sadly they didn't seem to have any options when they saw I wasn't getting on with them. I was surprised there weren't different width options etc.
Perhaps Krvavec isn't as well set up as other resorts. |
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You know it makes sense.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| Have you thought about your ski insurance (assuming you have it) suing him for damages for supplying dangerous goods. Assuming you were told by someone who really did know what they were talking about that they were adjusted incorrectly for your height, weight and boot size. |
But the OP said...
| proteus wrote: |
No, it was all lent to me by the instructor, boots and skis. He wasn't set up in any ski school, just someone who was a friend of a friend of my sisters.
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You're right I suppose... if a hire shop had sent someone out with completely inappropriate gear, fair enough... but it wasn't, it was a friend of a friend of a sister...
ACL injuries are a right bug for sporty people but this time next year the OP will be good as new, and with a lot more knowledge about what sort of set up he should be on next time and who to trust for instruction - tough way to learn the lesson, but it could have been so much worse.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| abc wrote: |
I'm no expert either. But I've never heard of that release mode. I'm under the impression bindings only release sideways. The only exception I heard of is a toe release, which happens when the skier leanning BACK... |
I'm thinking of the "comedy" effect you get where someone skis into side of a mogul and gets ejected forwards - leaving the pair of skis neatly lined up stationary on the snow. Are binding not meant to release that way?
| Cynic wrote: |
It would depend on what din he set them on
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No idea of the din - would be whatever the hire shops give to an 'intermediate' skier. Although I'll add I wasn't expecting them to come out easily. Think leaning forwards with all your body weight on a single leg until something gives - hopefully the binding!
But not wanting to cause disagreement, just saying how I double check the shop hasn't got it horribly wrong. Would never even consider adjusting my own bindings 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Cynic, True - I guess what I meant was that if set correctly for 'normal' skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| kerb wrote: |
| abc wrote: |
I'm no expert either. But I've never heard of that release mode. I'm under the impression bindings only release sideways. The only exception I heard of is a toe release, which happens when the skier leanning BACK... |
I'm thinking of the "comedy" effect you get where someone skis into side of a mogul and gets ejected forwards - leaving the pair of skis neatly lined up stationary on the snow. Are binding not meant to release that way?
| Cynic wrote: |
It would depend on what din he set them on
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No idea of the din - would be whatever the hire shops give to an 'intermediate' skier. Although I'll add I wasn't expecting them to come out easily. Think leaning forwards with all your body weight on a single leg until something gives - hopefully the binding!
But not wanting to cause disagreement, just saying how I double check the shop hasn't got it horribly wrong. Would never even consider adjusting my own bindings |
Except to do a forward comedy flip presumably you need to be ejected from the back binding, in which case you are no longer fixed to the ski and your toe just slips out anyway. So your test is not actually testing anything worthwhile
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| sev112 wrote: |
| kerb wrote: |
I'm thinking of the "comedy" effect you get where someone skis into side of a mogul and gets ejected forwards - leaving the pair of skis neatly lined up stationary on the snow. Are binding not meant to release that way? |
Except to do a forward comedy flip presumably you need to be ejected from the back binding, in which case you are no longer fixed to the ski and your toe just slips out anyway. So your test is not actually testing anything worthwhile |
Thought I was testing the back binding release, have I completely misunderstood how this stuff works?????
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Many years ago before DIN settings and when you tied your ski's to you legs you set your bindings yourself with a large screw driver
You clipped in one foot, and used the heel of the other foot to kick the toe of the boot in the bindings. you then set the tension till it would just release. You then did the back by leaning forward and jerking the heel up
Not exactly scientific, but at least you knew the binding worked and it was kind of based on your leverage and strength
DIN is good but not consistent. Some bindings are smoother and easier than others. My Atomic bindings are spot on the correct torque and I ski at 7 front and rear. My new Vist bindings are also spot on the correct torque but I ski with 7 on the toes and 8 on the heels as I step out of them every time they hit a snowflake at 7 on the rear but they are fine at 8.Its because the centring force varies and the initial smoothness that allows the boot to start to move easier
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| OliviaDB wrote: |
| Zero-G wrote: |
OliviaDB, from a lateral view, women tend to angle their pelvis backwards, basically creating more arch in the lumbar spine and sticking their bums out. Men tend to angle their pelvis forwards, thus tucking their bums and sticking their genitals out, so to speak.
In skiing terms, tucking your pelvis (and bottom) in, seems to change how you balance over your skis.
Here's an experiment: stand in a neutral position with your feet at hip width. Now, bend your knees like you do when you're skiing and lean forwards slightly. Stick your bum out (you can exaggerate this). Now, tuck your bum in (sort of like trying to pull the bottom of your pelvic bone towards your belly button), again, exaggerate this. Notice how you feel more stable when your bum is tucked in and bottom of the pelvis is angled forward? Perhaps this is because your abdominal muscles are more engaged when the pelvis is tucked forward... I don't know but it definitely completely changes how stable I feel when skiing really steep pitches – I have way more control.
Crotch shots are for another forum entirely |
Interesting. I actually have weird lower back issues, and do naturally stick my back bottom out too much, so when I remember make a point of trying to tilt my pelvis more forwards (eases back ache issues). So perhaps I'm doing this naturally. Unnaturally. Sometimes doing it.
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I'm struggling to grasp this. Could you post some pictures to help with the understanding ??? 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thornyhill,
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Explains exactly what I was trying to describe.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Which is easily sumarised as: sh@g not shet.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Thanks, that improved my mood no end this Morning. Probably for the wrong reasons.
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You know it makes sense.
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sev112,
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Except to do a forward comedy flip presumably you need to be ejected from the back binding
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There are perils in setting binds too lose. Discovered 'my' setting is supposed to be 8. Had mine on 4.5 as I am v.scared that I will damage my R.knee that was damaged before from non-ski related activity. On a steep red two weeks ago my son stopped hard and I wanted to see if there was an issue so I turned hard, and promptly popped out of both skis. Given it was very steep I had to self arrest to stop my head long plunge into the valley.
Tightened them up at the next lift to 6 which is still low but should help somewhat!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| WayneC wrote: |
albinomountainbadger, last week in Les Arcs the hire shop used a computerised weighing scale; you put your boot in a guage slot and stood on the scales, then pressed buttons relating to sex, age, abilty, etc... and then a print out appeared with a DIN setting which was dutifully dialled in to the bindings by the ski tech...
First time I had seen anything like it... |
I had something similar in la plagne in 2011, did all that as instructed by the first tech, gave the slip to the second tech adjusting the bindings, and he goes 'boeuf' and chucks it on the floor and then does the 'how heevy', 'good skieeer?' routine we've all heard a million times.
Interesting enough the charts suggest and 8 for me, but I've dialled down to a 7 due to having a faceplant onto ski moment in les arcs a couple of season ago and horrible extending my calf muscle. Now I test my release points by schussing at speed towards Plein Boe in Arrabba, catching an inside edge, and not being Bode Miller, wipe out in front of a pile of other  Still at least I know they release about right..
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Poster: A snowHead
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Just out of interest, who told you the release settings were wrong?
Beginner skiers will not be able to assess whether the binding release setting are correct, so they should only hire or buy from a competent source. That should be the key message here.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Zero-G wrote: |
Explains exactly what I was trying to describe. |
I think I just had a eureka moment!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| FraserP wrote: |
Just out of interest, who told you the release settings were wrong?
Beginner skiers will not be able to assess whether the binding release setting are correct, so they should only hire or buy from a competent source. That should be the key message here. |
Absolutely. I wish this had been posted earlier.
The first time I went skiing I did not know anything about bindings.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I seem to turn my settings up 0.5 every year or two as I increase the terrain difficulty I ski on. I just wait until I start getting pre-releases then adjust slightly.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| Zero-G wrote: |
Explains exactly what I was trying to describe. |
I think I just had a eureka moment! |
A birthday present from above
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| I seem to turn my settings up 0.5 every year or two as I increase the terrain difficulty I ski on. I just wait until I start getting pre-releases then adjust slightly. |
Does that mean your weight is going up by 3kg each year?
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| FraserP wrote: |
| Beginner skiers will not be able to assess whether the binding release setting are correct, so they should only hire or buy from a competent source. That should be the key message here. |
I agree, but with a note of caution about trusting a reputable shop.
The only time I've ended up with completely wrong DIN settings was when I swapped skis mid-week from a hire centre. It was my third week of skiing and I didn't notice that the DIN settings weren't reset when the skis were handed over. I'm sure it was a simple oversight and one of those things that happens on a busy day. I didn't find out til halfway through the day that I was skiing on what I was told were the factory settings (2.5). I may be little, but I'm not that little! It probably explained why my skis had released on a few turns in the morning. If I'd been a larger person or had been skiing aggressively then the consequences would have been much worse.
So my advice to anyone would be to always ask when someone else gives you skis (whether it's a shop, a trusted friend or a random stranger) what DIN settings they've used and why. Even if you don't know what your settings should be it is a good way to make sure that it's been thought about and of learning what factors people take into account.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Another thing regarding DIN settings is to be careful when you store your gear in hotel or hire shop ski storage rooms: make sure you pick up your own skis. gf once spotted that the only skis left in the rack weren't the set she'd been given at the hire shop, they were the same make and colour but a different model, someone had picked up the wrong set. On checking the DIN settings they were 3 points higher and we had to go to the hire shop to get them changed.
Someone probably had a frustrating day with skis releasing too early but at least gf didn't have a set that wouldn't release when needed. We now use stickers to identify our skis
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Indeed tafflondon.
It isn't just the DIN that needs checking. I've had an occasion where an instructor (who shall remain nameless*) picked up 'his' (club instructor skis), checked the DIN, went out to the slope, assembled his class, sent them up the lift, clicked in, got on the drag and was unceremoniously launched up the lift sans skis.
The DIN was correct, but some yeti had use the same skis the night before and set them for a longer boot.
When ski techs set DINs and then squint and fiddle and tut and reset and squint, they are looking at a marker for spring tension in the mechanism. This varies from binding to binding. If this tension is wrong, the binding won't work correctly. If someone has tried your rental skis on, reset the length and put them back after realising their mistake, the binding could be wrongly set.
Rental bindings have little numbers on them to indicate their position. If these aren't the same for both skis, then they may have been fiddled with, or you've picked up the wrong ski.
Regarding the OP,
How was he to know ?
We still can't be sure of the real situation. Possibly his sister's friend's friend is a fully qualified instructor with access to totally appropriate kit who thought he saw real talent because the OP is a natural skier who picked it up in ten minutes (I've seen 3 in three years). ACL injuries can happen with properly set bindings, I've seen designs where they try to overcome this with upwardly releasing toe bindings.
Alternatively he might have been a wannabe instructor who lent a pair of downhill race skis with bindings set to 15 who wanted to prove his instructorial ability by being able to say, "See him, I taught him to go from rank beginner to doing red runs at speed in an hour" along with an instruction along the lines of "if you're out of control and heading for a bump, sit right back and twist to the side".
I've known beginners on proper kit, knacker an ACL after a week of good instruction. I've know self taught human cannonballs on borrowed kit who have never had a problem. I think your chances of injury are less if the advice in this thread is taken and you go to proper equipment suppliers and ski teachers.
How a beginner is to determine that, I don't know. I've got a little badge that says I'm a ski instructor, also a card with my picture on it. I doubt that many of my holiday companions would know the legal and practical limits of my instructing authority and ability (the latter is considerably less than I thought it was before I took training and taught for a couple of years).
*oh, alright, it was me!
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FAQ
