ESF for non-beginner little ones/cancelling Crystal extras

A snowHead

We have a family ski holiday booked second week of April at La Plagne 1800. We have three children - one is nearly two and will be in Crystal's Pepi Penguin club.. hopefully he will have a good time!

The other two are four and six. We live in Hemel and have been sending them both for skiing lessons regularly in recent weeks. They're both progressing very well (amusingly the four year old is currently a higher level than the six year old and already had a go on the main slope which is causing all sorts of fighting, but hey ho..) and really really enjoying themselves. They're hugely excited about the upcoming holiday and loving skiing!

We booked through Crystal as I'm fairly new to skiing myself and not yet brave enough to DIY and the price was good. At the time I booked, I put them both into ski school in the mornings through Crystal.. thanks to info from posters on here it seems the school is going to be ESF.

I was doing a bit of rummaging through the forums today and saw that some people have had problems with ESF putting four year olds into classes more suited to their experience. We've spent a lot on lessons at Hemel - the last thing we want is for the four year old to be stuck right back at the beginning again while her big sister has more suitable challenges. Then again ESF's site seems to imply they'd need to be 7 or hold one of their badges in order to do anything worthwhile anyway. I also read that some people consider ESF to be pretty inflexible about moving between classes?

Frustratingly we won't actually know what level they're likely to be at until just before we go simply because they're still having lots of lessons!

So two questions really:

1. Are my fears justified - i.e. is it likely that one or both of them will be stuck in classes well below their ability? Would Oxygene serve them better? We'd use Reflex but they only take children from five.

2. Anyone know if Crystal charge a fee for cancelling the ski school booking if we did put them into another ski school? It's not very clear in their T&Cs.

Thank you!! snowHead

PS - I'll contact both Crystal and ESF tomorrow and ask them too, but I know from bitter experience that what a company says it will do and what it actually does are often two very different things, hence asking here as well!

A snowHead

What level are they currently at on the Hemel scale?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

The four year old is at level 4 and the six year old a strong level 3, but we've got at least another 5-6 lessons planned (they've already done a similar amount) so we're hoping to get them both a bit further.

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Is this a holiday or a test? Hemel isn't known for blistering side winds, falling snow or fogging googles, I'd be inclined to let them play in the snow garden, sod about and go un-challenged than have them terrified and out of their depth in higher classes. Remember the only English they might hear for 4 hours a day is "for sure" Laughing

this might knock the confidence a little too.

My daughters are 11 and 13 now and still enjoy sking beacuse it has always been a "treat" not a test. Don't worry, they will still get a taste for sking and have you freezing your whatsits off on the nocturnal club race practise nights wink

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sparklies, If you go to Oxygene, who are highly thought of within the UK market, you will have to get the children from 1800 to Plagne Centre every morning in t me for ski school start. This will at best involve getting them to the collection point in 1800 and waiting for the Oxygene bus Or getting the ski bus (making sue you get on the Plagnne centre bus and not the Bellecote bus!) up to Plagne Centre each morning and then walking from the bus station up to the Oxygene ski school meeting place.
If you stay with ESF you will have to simply wander along to the ESF school in 1800 itself.

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I agree with andrew e. I also think that ESF, in my experience, are very good at ensuring kids are in the right level of class. We used oxygen once, through Crystal, it was a right PITA getting the kids from Belle Plagne. I'd stick with ESF.

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Thank you everyone!

*Boredsurfing* - that's a very good point - bad enough getting the bus with ski gear on your own, let alone dragging along two small children too. We're staying in the Lauze apartments so right near the ESF meeting point I think? Not entirely sure from the map though!!

*andrew_e* - it's not a test! Happy

But I know my children - they are pretty competitive with each other and love learning or we wouldn't be sending them to Hemel every week - they're really into it, try very hard and beg to know when their next lesson is most days! We're hoping that by going in April that conditions will be a bit more pleasant too. I'd hope if they were out of their depth they'd be moved back down quite sharpish - it's the other way round I'm concerned about as they have big ambitions! Or we'd have stuck them in the kindergarten non-ski thing.

After all it is free

sparklies, an hours lesson a week (give or take) is not the same as skiing for many hours day after day. Their class length might only be 2.5 hours but they will probably be moving about on or with skis for much longer than that eg skiing over to a restaurant for lunch, to and from the hotel, skiing a bit with Mum and Dad after lessons. If I was you I'd be content with my child in piou piou and then do a few little runs with them in the afternoon if thats what everybody wants to do. Mention to ESF what she does in her class at home, her capabilities and then leave it with them.

In my experience once a child has mastered the 'snow garden' they will move them out on to the slopes. The ESF take the teaching very seriously and will always ensure your child is taught to the right level. British holiday makers don't always agree with their judgement or decisions but in my experience they are very honest.

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Thanks all! I think they will be okay, and if not we can easily take some downtime on some of the afternoons - I am fully expecting it on at least a few days. We're a pretty active family in general, and do a lot of outdoors stuff as well as lots of walking day to day, and we know they have a lot of stamina for their ages in particular. The most important thing is that they are enjoying themselves, and for them part of that usually means competing with each other as well as the joy of the activity!

Of course if ESF don't think they're ready for outside the snow garden I would rather it that way round than sticking them unprepared out there, but I hope that they will be out there for at least some of the holiday. I promise I'm not a pushy parent despite what it might seem like - they more than push themselves, trust me!! I just want to feel sure they'll have an opportunity to continue pushing themselves if they want to as there's nothing more frustrating than being capable of more but not being allowed to do it. There's often negative comments about ESF on here, hence my concern.

*Simon* - at the moment most of the lessons are on Saturday but that's just been how it's happened with spaces etc. Chances are high we might have them on Sundays at some point before we go - if I spot you I'll say hello! I don't imagine either of them will be up to level 6 before we go, not for one minute, but I'd hope they'd be beyond the "absolute beginner" level when they're placed in lessons.

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Blue Lange Boots will lead you to me! or the name badge!

I will keep an eye open! Very Happy

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

sparklies, from experience I would say that you are justified in having some concerns. I am pretty sure that the 4 year old will be stuck in the Jardin to 'play' and the 6 year old will go out in a group. That said I don't know this particular branch of the ESF but the website does say 3 & 4 year olds go into the Piou Piou club. It doesn't look as if your alternative ski schools are all that convenient though. Good luck.

A snowHead

It does vary, hence the need to talk to the ski school itself. In our ESF, kids from 4.5 can go into a "proper" group if they've done Piou Piou - so you need to explain about the experience at Hemel which might be accepted as an equivalent. I wouldn't just turn up and hope for the best.

A snowHead

Thank you to both of you! There's such varied feedback on ESF here - presumably so much depends on the school itself and of course individual instructors. I had a lovely private instructor in ESF Les Menuires when I took a short break on my own back in January, but then I also often read about what pam_w says about crocodiles with fallen sobbing children at the back and feel a bit concerned.

I have to agree they'd be better off being the better ones in their group than the worst! Even at Hemel where the group make-up changes with each lesson, it's interesting to see the difference in their confidence post lesson depending on the aptitudes of the other class members. So if they're in a class a bit under their ability it's not the end of the world, but I think we'd all be disappointed if they never made it out of the snowgarden at all. The point of the lessons at Hemel is to bypass the bit that they could basically do anywhere, so they can take advantage of having a proper mountain! In my (not so expert!) opinion from watching the videos on ESF's site, they'll hopefully be at least at their Ourson level by the time we go, if they're not at that level already which I think they may well be from comparing the descriptions to Hemel's scheme.

From watching the children's lessons at not just skiing but other things too like swimming etc (they have a brilliant strict instructor for that!) I actually think the children would do better with a stern instructor who pushes them, and less well with one that babies them. So in this particular case the style of teaching is no bad thing, although I wouldn't want them abandoned on the mountain!!

I've sent a message to ESF to see what they say. Worst case scenario I guess we could always arrange for a private lesson or two for them in place of one of the ski school sessions (so as not to tire them out!) so they at least get some instruction outside of the snowgarden. Husband and I have a couple of lengthy private lessons booked for ourselves with Reflex which we're really looking forward to!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Not sure what the age guidance is but if you are in the Flocon group in the Snow Garden then they do go out on the slopes and don't just stay in the snow garden. Pretty sure this is what Evie did at 5.... And then skied with us some afternoons ... Or swam with Daddy as it was his first trip!
ESF at La Plagne/ Les Arcs gets a better than average ESF press as far as I can see (and got a very big tick from us at Christmas)
My kids have had a mix of private lessons and ESF over the last 4 years and got lots out of each style of teaching... In fact I think the mixture itself is a strength. Hope you and they have fun.... There is nothing nicer than a kid skiing with a huge grin on their face or the sight of a little bum in the air as they tuck up to get over a slow bit (or more terrifying sight when your 8 yr old decides she is in a strop on a slightly steeper slope... But that is another story!)

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katedenhaag, if they get put in Flocon that'll be fine as Flocons do ski on the mountain, and often Oursons do too depending on the local area I guess. The problem will be if the ESF stick to their rules and keep the 4 year old in Piou Piou even though he can already ski.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Exactly!! I've been loving seeing the massive grins on their faces at the bottom of each of the runs they've been doing in Hemel - they really are loving it and totally giving it their all. We want them to have the best time possible basically! And I know my four year old will sulk immensely if she is stuck in the snow garden and her big sister is out on the slopes, especially as ironically at the moment she is (just about) the better skier! They love each other to bits, but they are ridiculously competitive with each other which isn't always a good thing (oh gawd, the fighting..) however it does help them progress well with stuff like this.

I'm hoping they'd be good enough for Flocon, but if they're put in Ourson but still go out on the mountain a bit that's a win in my book too. Worst case scenario I guess we could have them in different ski schools if they won't let the four year old out.. a nightmare of logistics given the other school is a bus ride away, but there are two of us at least.

Thanks!!

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

pam w, you are lucky with your branch. The one the OP is going to says 3 & 4 year olds in Piou Piou. Some places it's hard to get them into a proper class until they're 6.

sparklies, agree with what pam w says, make sure the 4 year old is as independent as poss, also although they can ski make sure they can get up quickly unaided if they fall and catch up the group. My son did lessons in the dome at age 4 and could ski quite nicely but expected to be picked up when he fell and they did pick up the littlies then, it did him no favours when he went into ski school in resort Laughing

After all it is free

Heh, our four year old will be *counts* 4 years almost 5 months, so not quite 4.5 years! That's a very good tip on the boots though - I'll encourage her to put them on and take them off herself (without eating all the snow off them rolling eyes

) as you're right - it's that sort of thing that could tip the balance. She's thankfully pretty good at going to the toilet in all her ski gear.. um, I mean actually going to the physical toilet and sorting out her buttons and zips, rather than treating it like a wetsuit in the sea!

I wonder if it turns out ESF won't put the four year old in a higher group if they'd be prepared to offset the cost of their lessons against private instruction with them instead? Probably not, especially as the lessons are booked through the tour operator, but worth asking I guess.

Forgot to say to katedenhaag - I'd also not encountered anything negative about ESF La Plagne online anywhere, which is reassuring - after all there's plenty of horror stories easily found about other ones.

sarah - Good point, I'll speak to them both about it. I've seen them getting themselves up before in the past so I know they can do it, but sometimes out of laziness I think they wait for the instructor as they know the instructor will help them. Far better if they get used to doing it themselves!

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sparklies, worth asking if that turns out to be the case. If not you can always go back to Crystal for a refund/credit and say that the ESF can't offer an appropriate class for your child.

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Oh, that's true. Especially as I could argue if the place for the four year old isn't suitable, we'd need them to be together in the same ski school and/or private lessons for obvious logistical reasons. It may well be worth a try! Thanks!!

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At our ESF, 4 year olds (without Piou Piou) have gone into Piou Piou at the start of the week and graduated with Ourson - each local ESF is different. The instructors are lovely, and will always tell the little ones the positive points about what they have achieved, but they won't give them the medal if they don't make the grade.

You know it makes sense.

Thanks!

With ESF's grades, is it what they expect them to have achieved by the end of the course, or what they expect them to already do? I am pretty sure both of mine will be able to do the video shown in "Ourson" before we go, they may even be able to do it already.

I guess the big issue is whether they'll accept that they've learned the equivalent elsewhere, instead of the Piou Piou medal requirement.

I don't mind them starting out in Piou Piou for the first lesson if that's what it takes to assess them as needing to be elsewhere, but I don't want them stuck there all week side-stepping etc. when they're already beyond that.

Thank you miranda for reassuring over the instructors! I hope ours are as good!

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Also I find esf are pretty good about switching credit about between activities. Channel being french when initially told it's impossible and just ask again with a shrug to acknowledge that it is not offcially allowed Twisted Evil

A snowHead

Is this thread seriously about whether a 4 year old is in an advanced enough ski class ??

A snowHead

patricksh, yes, why not? At 4 years old, some kids will just want to go sledging, make snowmen, eat cake and so on, and some will want to go skiing and could ski for hours. At 4 years old, kids are little people, with different personalities, strengths and interests. sparklies doesn't want her kids to feel bored or frustrated and that's understandable. They will be fine, though (unless they really strike unlucky), as they will move them up (and down) if they think that's necessary. I would definitely give them a call first and ask your questions about what they are expected to have done before they can enter into a particular class - as said many times on this forum, you can't talk about "the ESF" in general, as they are local establishments.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

a.j. - That's good to hear! I mean, most companies want a happy customer.. but there are always some that cut off their nose to spite their face! Especially as they'd be making more money out of us..

What miranda said Smile

Children are all massively different, and these two happen to be really excited to be learning to ski (probably to copy mummy and daddy!) and given the ridiculous size of the investment we're making in this holiday, I want us all to have the best time possible! Now, if I was talking about lessons for my almost two year old you may have a point Razz

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Ha sparklies, you think this is a big investment? It is a slippery slope from here on.... 2 keen kids means you can justify more trips as 'everyone enjoys it'..... I have managed to justify 3 trips this year for kids (husband misses out on last one)..... Rather low key summer hols coming up for us this year!!

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I guess I picked up on comment about kids being competitive and wanting the 4 year old to be suitably challenged. Good post Miranda but in fairness even if you are pretty new to skiing you would know that ESF won't be having them eat cake and build snowman instead of ski! I understood sparklies was concerned 4 year old would spend most of week on nursery slope and she felt that might not be advanced enough? Puzzled

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Thanks sarah!!

katedenhaag - ugh, I know!! This is this year's main holiday, no summer holiday for us.. and we're self-catering in a shoebox apartment at that! And as you say, it will only get more expensive especially when the littlest starts ski school too in a few years Shocked

Have to confess that in the future we're considering taking them out of school or we'll go bankrupt!! Since we moved here in November, we now at least live near a fridge (heck, we can walk to it!) so it won't be just a once a year thing even if it's not quite the same as a real mountain. It's something we can all get enjoyment out of with clubs, recreational passes etc all year round.

I'm sure the holiday will be worth every penny but I can't help but wince that I spent a tiny fraction of this price on a fabulous short half-board midweek break on my own to Les Menuires back in early January! I suspect I may feel the need to do so again in subsequent years to get more than a week's fix each year Very Happy

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Ohhh, so true!! Food bribery gets my children everywhere.. I take a regular stash of treats to get us round long walks. And they *do* enjoy the walks, and talk about the fun they had as well as the food they had! A treat, or even the thought of an upcoming treat, gets them through the odd low point.. just like it does with adults!

Help!!

ESF for non-beginner little ones/cancelling Crystal extras

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