Poster: A snowHead
|
Sorry for my first post being a question but could do with some advice.
So I have been working as a ski host for a British TO this season. When the big companies suspended their hosting service with a bit of a push we suspended our service too.
Now my boss believes that he has found a solution but as a person with a career to return to I don't want to do something illegal, so is this solution ok?
Instead of having a hosting contract I will now be paid for my hours in the hotel. That's the first contract and covers financial payment, travel, lift pass etc, normal season stuff.
My second contract says that I will be given room and board for volunteering to run a ski club during the day. I will not wear company clothing but will effectively be a non paid ski host. This contract also says that it is acceptable for me to have another job to fund myself.
Every hotel guest who wants to ski with me will join an English based ski club on arrival at resort and will be given a membership card.
The company public liability insurance has been changed to include the ski club within its policy.
So is this legal? Could I be stopped for guiding? Would I be insured if there was an accident?
Thanks
Carvey
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Always wear a helmet in a court of law I've consulted with the snowHeads legal team on this.
They say it's a load of cock. If you're doing one unpaid job which is forced on you by doing another paid job, then obviously they are one and the same thing. Is your employer actually a banana?
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Is that fact? Ie you can't have two contracts with the same company?
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Carvey, I'll be honest that I don't know what I'm talking about and am only guessing. My grandfather Ernst Goldschmidt was a lawyer in Berlin, but he died 3 years before I was born.
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Quote: |
Could I be stopped for guiding?
|
Carvey, I'm damn sure you could be stopped and taken away for questioning. Your argument would then be to present those contracts and other evidence and maybe have to argue it out in front of a French beak. For sure, it sounds like a workaround but how much stress would you have to go through to make it stick?
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Good solution if it works. Though I suspect ESF will find grounds to complain.
|
|
|
|
|
|
I know next to nowt about English employment law, and even less about french.
But, your second contract has you getting room and board for running a ski club; that's remuneration.
That means you're getting paid to run the club.
So I'd say it won't work.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Carvey, and, by the way, if you were to go along with it and eventually get done for it (let's face it, it's probably a gamble), it's you that might suffer and end up with a criminal conviction. Some employers are very good at saying "don't worry we'll be right behind you" but that does mean "behind". Simple things like filling in the ESTA to gain entry to the USA, become tricky. Job applications become tricky. Personally, I'd be asking my employer to go and test this theory themselves first and asking for cast iron proof that the authorities considered it legal. If ALL the big tour ops were to adopt this workaround then there might be some mileage in it because they will have had it legalled properly.
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Carvey,
Dude, just go for it. You will probably be fine and a criminal record doesn't follow you home. Or walk out on the job and go home, close the curtains and wear a helmet whenever you walk more than 15 ft.
Seriously though, if you don't do it then someone will probably come along that is willing to do what they ask so you need to work out whether you like your job enough to risk it.
I would do it but it's up to you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mosha Marc wrote: |
But, your second contract has you getting room and board for running a ski club; that's remuneration.
That means you're getting paid to run the club.
So I'd say it won't work. |
So how does that differ from the SCGB reps, sorry leaders, who get room and board in return for leading members around the slopes?
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Alastair Pink wrote: |
Mosha Marc wrote: |
But, your second contract has you getting room and board for running a ski club; that's remuneration.
That means you're getting paid to run the club.
So I'd say it won't work. |
So how does that differ from the SCGB reps, sorry leaders, who get room and board in return for leading members around the slopes? |
No idea. Maybe they're more under the radar than the TO's who are in, nearly, every big resort.
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Mosha Marc wrote: |
I know next to nowt about English employment law, and even less about french.
But, your second contract has you getting room and board for running a ski club; that's remuneration.
That means you're getting paid to run the club.
So I'd say it won't work. |
According to the SCGB, board and lodging does not count as remuneration for the purposes of the relevant French law: that's why they say that SCGB hosting is not affected. If that is right (and I am not a specialist in French law) then the solution proposed by Carvey's employers could work. The principal legal concern I would have in such circumstances - if the matter were governed by English law - is that the arrangements could be attacked as being a sham, designed to dress up the actual arrangements behind a veneer which pretended they were something else. If I were in Carvey's shoes I would want an assurance that the arrangements have been signed off by a French lawyer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Carvey, we have family legal cover as part of our buildings and contents insurance can you make use of this to find out?
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
SCGB leaders, I used to be one, do not get paid any salary. Half board and some genuine expenses are paid, but not all. You even have to supply your own equipment for example. The OP says that he will be "paid" for his hours in the hotel, so there is clearly a wage or salary, whether or not that can be connected to his hosting activities is a different matter.
I do not think I would like to be the one to prove if it can work.
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Carvey wrote: |
My second contract says that I will be given room and board for volunteering to run a ski club during the day. I will not wear company clothing but will effectively be a non paid ski host. This contract also says that it is acceptable for me to have another job to fund myself.
Carvey |
You're not exactly a volunteer if the arrangement stipulates you must have a contract
But as Alastair Pink has already pointed out, how does this differ to the SCGB arrangement, tbh I cannot see much difference, but it is a sham all the same.
Dare we ask who you work for, go on spill the beans.
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Clubs are able to operate in France in insofar as the club coaches can take their members out on the slopes. Although, I imagine, there could be insurance issues if one of your clients has a mishap as you are not actually holding any alpine coaching or leading qualifications.
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Sounds like a dodgy work-around to me, with you potentially having to face the questionning. Sounds clever on paper but I would guess it would not stand up in court.
A few years back I was skiing with a BASS ski school director (of Meribel) when he was stopped for questionning at Mottaret, where you would think he would be pretty well known. If even people like he could be stopped for 15 mins, and he had all his paperwork on him, it wouldn't take much for someone to tell the gendarmerie about what your TO was doing and for the ski hosts - er sorry, ski club volunteers to be pulled in for questionning.
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Carvey, Let me first say that I am not a lawyer.
This sounds like a complete sham to me. You have to consider your status whilst 'running' this club. When people 'join' the club who do they think their contract is with? There will presumably be no reference to the TO in the membership documentation so on the face of it you are the club. So you take them off for the day and someone has an accident which, reasonably or not, they blame you for. You try and rely on the fact that the TO has an insurance policy to cover you, but how can the policy cover you when there is no mention of the TO in the club membership? They will hold you personally responsible, leaving you to try and argue that you are covered by an insurance policy in the TO's name.
Also, I fail to see how the two contracts can in reality be separated. How could you fulfil your duities in the hotel without having your accommodation paid for? That contract only works if the second contract is also in place. The two contracts are completely inter-dependant on each other. I cannot see any court treating the two contracts as being independent of each other. If I'm right then a court would treat the contracts as being one contract covering two roles and your earnings as covering both of those roles.
So what are the implications for you? You could be liable for any action taken against you whilst running the 'club' and you could find yourself being escorted off the slopes for questioning. Even if it went no further than questioning it would be a very unpleasant experience. No insurance policy covers the policy holder's employees breaking the law and any idemnity the TO may claim to be giving you would be of limited use.
Finally, I am surprised that the policy can have been amended so quickly. I realise that you are not in a position to disclose the name of the TO, but I would speculate that it is a small company that thinks it can make up its own rules as it goes along. Personally, I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Carvey,
I understand that the TO's who had a joint meeting last Thursday will be making a statement at the beginning of next week. A multi million pound company like TUI will have had their lawyers checking what they can and cannot do. I would wait and see what they are doing before you commit to a new 'contract'.
If you do get arrested do not answer any questions without demanding a representative of the British Consult is present. That should shock the local police
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Carvey, at the very least I'd say you should have some kind of personal liability insurance. Anyone who, for example, is an absolutely genuinely volunteer sailing instructor in the UK would have personal insurance (provided automatically if they join the RYA) even though they are instructing - or just taking kids on a "guided" evening sail - under the institutional umbrella of a genuine sailing club carrying its own insurance. You'd be crazy to take the risk of being sued without that cover.
I imagine that unless you are suitably qualified an organisation such as BASI would be unlikely to provide such insurance.
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
How to solve the problem. Dont go to FRANCE! Dont spend any money in the country! Dont give them a thing! They are dirty and dont like us anyway so why do me make a big thing about going there. Go anywhere but France.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Let's solve this issue of 'benefit in kind' and 'renumeration'
The situation under French law is significantly different from UK law so don't confuse the two.
Seasonal work in France will have room and board included as part of the employment contract, as well as other things we may consider a benefit such as lift-pass. However, as these things are required to perform your role, French law does not consider them renumeration nor benefits as they are required to allow you to carry out your role. Therefore ski-hosts, such as those operating for the SCGB as totally unpaid. The board, lodgings and lift-pass are not considered benefits nor renumeration under French law. This would be the same for any other role, paid or not.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Philbo wrote: |
Clubs are able to operate in France in insofar as the club coaches can take their members out on the slopes. Although, I imagine, there could be insurance issues if one of your clients has a mishap as you are not actually holding any alpine coaching or leading qualifications. |
Do you think that Club Coaches should be providing performance race training only or do you think that normal intermediate skiers visiting a resort skiing under the guise of belonging to a "Club" ?
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Carvey, every local instructor will be looking out for people ignoring the judgment, so you will most likely be pulled up at some point. Are they going to give you the benifit of doubt over the contrived arrangment, I think not.
Don't touch it.
If you are still tempted, and I guess your job depends on it, ask at the Maries office, but don't think for a minute you will not be spotted. It's like being asked to do a bit of unqualified gas fitting.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote: |
My second contract says that I will be given room and board for volunteering to run a ski club during the day. I will not wear company clothing but will effectively be a non paid ski host. .. |
Unless things have changed since my day, no consideration, no contract. Or to put it another way, your contract does not compute, unless the room and board is the consideration - in which case, you're being paid. Pass the popcorn.
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Spyderman, Not everyone wants to race. Club coaches can provide training for lots of different requirements.
Our club has been running non-race training weeks every year for over 30 years without any issue - in the last ten years this has expanded to two trips per year. But the coaches are genuine club coaches who come out and return with the group and the attendees are genuine club members - in some cases for over all of those 30 years. We've consistently been told by TO reps that they are _staggered_ by the level of skiing of the participants, and whist it is true that some of the newcomers are relative beginners, but we are consistently welcomed by resort management who welcome our business year after year (and are very disappointed when we say that next year we are going somewhere different...),
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Forget it your job (hosting) is no longer allowed in France. Dont sign any new
Contract & certainly do not host customers while under any other contract with your employer.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Carvey wrote: |
as a person with a career to return to I don't want to do something illegal |
Walk away, do not look back. Is what's left of this winter worth jeopardising your future for?
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Carvey,
Have you new guests arrived?
Have you formed your new club?
Are you guiding/hosting/leading this week?
Just interested in what you have decided.
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Thanks for the responses, I have put your suggestions to my boss in an email to hopefully let him see the position he would be putting me in. The guests have arrived and are disappointed by the lack of hosting and they do feel a little cheated as the TO has not told them of the situation. However, they are fully supportive of not breaking the law. I am continuing to work in a different role until we find a solution.
Thanks for the heads up on the TO's meeting I've seen that its happened on planetski but they don't report any subsequent methods of solving the hosting problem other than continuing the legal appeal process is this right? Also the suggestions of talking to the Marie or a French Lawyer sound like good ones.
Fingers crossed I will still be in a job till the end of the season
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
Carvey wrote: |
My second contract says that I will be given room and board for volunteering to run a ski club during the day.
|
Sorry how can you have a contract that volunteers you.eit her you volunteer, and have the option to do nothing,
Yoou may well come to a non binding mutual understanding with somone on the basis of an informal arrangment, however a "contract to volunteer" has no meaning.
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Lets be honest though, with regard to rights (and duties) the average TO contract means absolutely nothing anyway.
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Good point, can anyone confirm that volunteers don't have contracts? Are the SCGB volunteers contracted? Anyone know how the Olympic volunteers were contracted and paid or remunerated? Thanks
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
This sounds like the workarounds that people used around ten years ago for driving minibuses using their ' grandfather ' licence rights not for 'hire and reward'.
Didn't work for them as when things were examined it was obvious that the arrangements were false.
If the French judiciary start feeling that TO's are taking the pee and trying to get around existing law then I think things will start going very badly for them. My guess is that the French would then stop a blind eye and start looking at employment contracts and minimum pay in a much broader context.
I think you would be at possible risk of a more serious set of offences than if you just ignored the ski hosting. If your career could be adversely affected by a French crminal record then you might want to be careful.
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
I suggest that your employer instead contracts you to carry out the role of official photographer for his business.
Your duties could then include you suggesting various locations in the resort where photgraphs of your employer's guests could be taken, i.e standing beside the lift that takes you to the resort's highest point. In front of the restaurant that provides the resort's best value. At the top of that lovely cruisey blue etc. etc. Obviously you would not suggest any photographic opportunities which involve black runs or off-piste.
When your employer's guests agree that they would love to have their photographs taken, they could follow you ski-ing to these locations.
You don't need any qualifications to be a ski photographer in French resorts.
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
I think you might need Joséphine Karlsson to defend you if you get caught.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Alastair Pink wrote: |
I'm still not quite sure how the French courts would view that though..... |
Fairly, justly and without prior predjudice of course Alistair... written into their constitution that is.
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Mr Marmot, love it!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mr Marmot, Nice!!!!! Perhaps a ski butler would work.
|
|
|
|
|
|