 Poster: A snowHead
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Dwarf Vader wrote:
Dwarf Vader wrote:
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A Solid 6 foot fence makes you control yourself........
I was down at the bottom of this run today again and had a closer look at the red barriers and I now see that the posts are not embedded into the snow. They have a small metal bar on the bottom which would push out of the snow easy in hit with force and the fence will fall over.
They are still big lumps of wood which will cause a bruise if hit but they are not solid into the hard pack, they have give. Maybe their bark is worst then their bite.
Netting sends the message: "This is a device design to save your life in the event you've gone too fast for the condition". Reaction: go fast and see how close you can miss the netting.
Wooden barrier sends this message: "If you hit it, it's going to hurt!". Reaction: slow way down to be absolutely sure one doesn't make contact with the said barrier.
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why don't you go one step further and have spikes sticking out of it?, are you going to say the same when your kids make a silly mistake, larking around and smack their face on a wooden barrier when a soft net could have done the same job or if some plonker takes you out and you smack your face on a hard barrier?, why not remove the padding from around the snow cannons?.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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tangowaggon, Or because your out of control just slam into a kid who is standing in the lift queue having done everything right and is minding his own business having done nothing wrong?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I swear if any wooden barrier hurt my kids I'd do time!!!
Disclosure-I haven't got any kids.
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Children have recently lost lives and legs by hitting tree / branches.
I'd rather my kids hit a wooden barrier that isn't cemmented into the ground than a tree trunk or a tree branch. I'd also rather an out of contorl skier, (skiing beyond their abilities) hit a wooden fence (that would break his fall to some degree) than a tree or my children.
If I was stupid enough to hit the fence it would be my problem and I wouldn't be suing or hurting anyone else.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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DB, everyones point on the wooden barrier thing is that there is an even better alternative specifically designed to catch and stop out of control people without hurting them too much which is a pretty standard method of gating for speed control all over the world.
For some unknown reason people take umbrage at the existence of an equally effective but safer alternative being pointed out. 
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DB,
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If I was stupid enough to hit the fence it would be my problem and I wouldn't be suing or hurting anyone else.
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However, plenty of other people would sue.
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| meh wrote: |
DB, everyones point on the wooden barrier thing is that there is an even better alternative specifically designed to catch and stop out of control people without hurting them too much which is a pretty standard method of gating for speed control all over the world.
For some unknown reason people take umbrage at the existence of an equally effective but safer alternative being pointed out. |
I take it you mean netting. What's next - pisted runs with netting all down the sides killing a lot of offpiste opportunities just because some piste skiers can't keep their skiing under control ?
Some of the most dangerous runs are the home runs that beginners (often small children) use. Some skiers/boarders with very little control blast down these pistes frightening others. I've seen the aftermath of such a skier hitting a very small child. The fast skiers biggest danger is picking up too much speed and flying off the piste then hitting a tree etc. IMHO if this risk is then taken away with netting they will go even faster. I believe something that forces them to slowdown and increase the level of control to get around is a better solution.
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meh, if you're referring to netting, I've heard of plenty enough injuries from people getting their skis and poles tangled up in them. Wooden fencing that gives a bit is likely only to cause bruising at worst.
Besides, the stuff is bright red, very difficult to miss seeing from a long way away; if you lose control from that far away you're likely to have slowed down considerably by the time you reach them, and if you lose control close to them, then you were probably going too fast in the first place.
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Hi all, first time poster here.
I was in Breckenridge last week and they had notice boards at every lift station advertising how many days of lift pass access had been confiscated that week, month and season for speeding and other bad behaviour. They also had pretty visible piste patrolling and signs saying "Go fast, lose pass" everywhere. I've never seen this done to that extent in Europe
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London_Falcon, welcome to snowHeads! 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Richard_Sideways, They'd also have to wear a jaunty beret style helmet cover but would always catch the perp using the power of lessons, grammar and natural superiority - punishments would range from a slideshow of Axsman's fluffy cat pics to a full lecture by Comedy Goldsmith on the Lewes Avalanche. Repeat offenders would have their browsers hacked and diverted to SH helmet threads only. |
That would be rewarding bad behaviour shirley? 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
I was in Breckenridge last week and they had notice boards at every lift station advertising how many days of lift pass access had been confiscated that week, month and season for speeding and other bad behaviour. They also had pretty visible piste patrolling and signs saying "Go fast, lose pass" everywhere. I've never seen this done to that extent in Europe
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Lets hope it remains that way.
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DB, I'm talking specifically about the gating used to control speed created by overlapping it before lift queues and the like as used all over the world in exactly the same manner as the wooden fencing posted earlier. Which is why I mentioned it specifically in my post. Nothing about sticking netting down the sides of pistes or anything else.
eng_ch, I said safer, not totally safe. 
No need to get so defensive on behalf of the Swiss you guys just because there are obvious flaws with putting big lumps of wood in the path of people potentially out of control.
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You know it makes sense.
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meh,
I'm not the only one who thought you meant netting, can you post a picture of exactly what you mean?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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The big question, I suppose, is to what extent is it anyone else's responsibility to protect people from themselves?
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Poster: A snowHead
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DB, to clarify, I am talking about netting but I am only talking about it in context of making speed control gates in the same manner as the wooden fencing in the photo on page one. It's what near enough every other speed control gate is made from worldwide. There is obviously some special snowflake reason why this absolutely has to be different (and the linked blog seems to suggest it's 'coz der swiss is well ard innit' and don't care about hurting people) but as yet no one has bothered to explain what it is.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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eng_ch, then why mark hazards at all or pad pylons and the like?
It's in the resorts interest to protect people from themselves and to protect others from being hurt by people out of control.
Morally speaking I'd guess that most people would suggest achieving the same end with less harm is a better outcome.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 27-02-13 13:01; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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eng_ch, that's a valid philosophical point but in practice the extent of that responsibility has been determined in law in many countries - albeit with plenty of grey areas, obviously.
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You could also consider the hypothetical situation where an out of control slope user hits another person and knocks them into the speed control barrier which is perfectly possible. So it's not necessarily a question of just making them safer for the person who has been deemed to be irresponsible by the people on here who can think of no other manner of losing control than driver error.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Of course there's a perfectly "safe" way for the savvy to avoid all this carnage called skiing off piste. As the FIS rules are woefully inadequate/inadequately enforced maybe a general "caveat emptor" should apply to all slope users with no whingeing. By extension this should extend to bereaved families etc when they start lobbying for resorts to be punished or pad everything in sight to "achieve" something from their grief. The family of the girl killed in Austria seem to be paragons of how to turn grief "actions" into something positive, parents of Taft Conlin and the rep killed by skiing into a cannon etc less so.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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DB, yes I know it works too because everyone else uses it to do the job that the wooden fences are doing, just more safely, as I've said multiple times! The problems with people turning up and dismantling/removing it and it needing to be reset are issues for the wooden fencing solution as well (someone said above the wooden fences aren't actually all that well fixed).
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meh,
The netting itself is probably safer but I wouldn't want to hit one of the metal bars/rods especially if it was angled towards me. I've seen places with high ski traffic volume where a bit of netting is strung between a couple of metal rods. As the day goes on and a few people run into the netting at low speed the netting becomes all saggy. The rods are pulled together ending up at all angles. The wooden fence at least keeps it's form and stays as one unit without having to be re-setup all the time.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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DB, I think you're off down the rabbit hole now. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Forgive me for stating the obvious, but people are still going to get hurt running into wooden fences. Arguably the lift operators don't really care whether it is the goody or the baddie that gets hurt. They don't want anyone hurt. I also don't buy into the logic that a wooden fence is a significantly greater 'slow down' signal than a big orange banner impeding your way with the words 'slow down' in huge letters.
In my view these signs work pretty well in the approach to lift queues and in busy / narrow pistes. I'm not sure if this is even a significant issue by lift queues, let alone on the open piste.
IF there is a problem, and I don't accept it is a big one, then there are two root causes:
1. People skiing faster than their ability permits.
2. People skiing at a different speed to the rest of the traffic. - All to often I have seen excellent skiers leaving mayhem in their wake as they hurtle down a crowded piste. They may not have actually touched anyone on their passage, but the disruption is enormous. It's a bit like Lewis Hamilton in a F1 car weaving through busy motorway traffic at 150mph. The accidents are caused by other people being unsettled by the experts speed.
Anyway, to repeat my earlier point..... wooden barriers are completely daft. They will cause more injuries, worse injuries, and be a complete pain in the back bottom for the pisteurs to install and re-erect if they get knocked.
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Waiting in a lift queue at Val D a couple of years ago, Mrs Axs and I were very nearly taken out by a snowboarder who completely misjudged his speed and ploughed into the (wisely placed) crash netting on one side of the queue. I say 'wisely placed' but not 'solidly anchored' as it slowed him down but didn't prevent him knocking over the two people in front of us. 
They were surprisingly calm about it , The husband actually apologised to the boarder (a young kid) and asked if he was ok? I would have been much less sympathetic. In that particular circumstance a more solid barrier would have limited the damage to the out of control party, not the innocent spectator.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Axsman wrote: |
| In that particular circumstance a more solid barrier would have limited the damage to the out of control party, not the innocent spectator. |
Are you saying with a fence there would have been more damage to the people in the queue?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| foxtrotzulu wrote: |
2. People skiing at a different speed to the rest of the traffic. - All to often I have seen excellent skiers leaving mayhem in their wake as they hurtle down a crowded piste. They may not have actually touched anyone on their passage, but the disruption is enormous. It's a bit like Lewis Hamilton in a F1 car weaving through busy motorway traffic at 150mph. The accidents are caused by other people being unsettled by the experts speed.
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This reads like you're trying to pin it on the "expert" in this case not the mental fragility of those "unsettled". If we assume the expert isn't directly "buzzing" anyone (say coming within a 1.5m radius) then what are they doing wrong? It is inevitable that a fall-line skier will encounter traversers and may pass quite closely behind individuals while at no point directly endangering them. If it's too much for a sensitive flower perhaps they should stick to slopes they don't have to traverse on?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatbob, Maybe the fall line skier should use steeper reds and blacks to strut his stuff where the 'easily unsettled' fear to tread? you dont drive at 70mph though a built up area or outside a school do you? 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Axsman, surely your example shows that the net arrested the fall of the guy who was out of control and slowed him enough to mean that everyone involved got up and walked away. A solid barrier would've resulted in a sickeningly wet crunch and a trip in a sledge for at least 1 person.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Given the increased prevalance of an aging population, is actually "saving" people from themselves, simply to suffer more complex medical conditions including dementia, yet be unproductive - indeed be net consumers, both in economic terms and emotional capital - members of society, for far longer, such a 'good thing'?
50% of all born after 2015 are expected to live to 100+ . Increasing that number by not allowing (should that be not encouraging?) the self-weeding of the reckeless, dangerous (and lazy) may not be such a great leap forward for human-kind. Gene pool dilution and all that.
I say let people understand the risks, and make their own decisions.
[dons helmet - hoho- and dives for cover.]
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Richard_Sideways, yebbut, it only JUST arrested him sufficiently, and really NOT sufficiently since he still hit the queue hard enough to knock two people over. There could easily have been injuries, especially if either of them had been a small child.
A more solid (but padded) barrier would increase the risks to the out of control boarder, but protect the queue who could not easily move out of his way.
I'f I'm stood in a queue, with little or no opportunity to 'dodge' some loony that stacks it on his approach, I'll be a lot happier knowing there's something solid between me and him. Kind of puts the responsibility for not getting hurt on the right party IMHO.
Arctic Roll, 'Think of it as evolution in action'
DB, indeed, simples, and effective. 
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Axsman, number one, children are INDUSTRIAL the bounce and bend when you and I would be in traction till Christmas. That aside, Slow-arrest barriers are just better in this kind of environment. In your example, there simply should've been more run-off area between the queue and the space where people could approach at speed. Case in point the picture DB, has posted, rather than 3 hard barriers, 2 lines of netting one where the skier in green pants is and one where the boarder in blue is would be better protection, with possibly a more substantial barrier guiding the people queueing further back from the arrival area.
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| Axsman wrote: |
| fatbob, Maybe the fall line skier should use steeper reds and blacks to strut his stuff where the 'easily unsettled' fear to tread? you dont drive at 70mph though a built up area or outside a school do you? |
Under my analysis I'm assuming the only reason the expert is on the slope is because it's a pinch point slope being an essential connector and no ready off piste alternative being available. I can think of many examples where to return to lifts/towns you're effectively forced in clusterfock areas. Otherwise he's not an expert, he's just a blue run hero and wonker.
One example would be the Pierre a Ric in Grand Montets - it's not an easy run, most punters would be better advised to download. Those that do have the skills are IMV perfectly entitled to ski at a pace appropriate to those skills and the difficulty of the slope. It's the nervous ninnies that are the equivalent of 40mph drivers in the middle lane of the motorway here. Situation obviously reversed if people ar eblasting through an obvious nursery slope unnessessarily - that's your 70mph outside a school.
(& for Chx pedants - yes the PaR is bunny slope material compared to the real expert terrain in the valley)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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foxtrotzulu, I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. It's easy to say tut tut, other people are always wrong without looking at yourself. Nervous ninnies have the "right" to go where they want but everyone else is callous for not giving them a very wide berth strikes me as an inequitable position. And a reasonable interpretation of what is appropriate clearance might depend on how nervous they are so differs considerably between the "assailant" and the "victim" - clearly London Tube close is too close in any circumstance but 2m, 3m? It's difficult to get 2m all the time from people at Hemel for instance (my exemplar of a crowded mixed ability slope).
For the record I hate crowded runs and will download or wait significant times for appropriate gaps in traffic if one is unavoidable. I won't however slow to the pace of the slowest skier on the run unless for some reason it's single track (a traverse or stream crossing perhaps) or (quite often) I am the slowest person on the run. If someone in front of me breaches the skier's code e.g. sets off from stationary without looking I have no guilt about e.g. skiing over the back of their skis if its unavoidable or it's the least hazardous option to me. I might hurt myself for a small child regardless of fault but tough poo-poo of you're an adult and in the wrong.
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FAQ
yes that was poor phrasing wasn't it 
