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A price worth paying? Or lives worth saving?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
DB wrote:
meh wrote:
A better solution would be controlled access to terrain based on skiing ability measured in some objective fashion.


What about they ski past and a panel of judges hold up scorecards. wink
We've discussed this before. My recommendation was for a Test Of Skier Safety Etiquette and Responsibility. I'm sure resorts will be falling over themselves to introduce the scheme.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
meh, rob@rar, I'm only responding to Jonny Jones, idea of "Resorts should put natural - and therefore fun - traffic calming in place." i.e. big chunks of wood. Like I said they do seem to work.

The other important face is there is less brutal grooming (more bumps etc) over here so I fee there is less overall speed on piste, To my mind that works well.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
meh wrote:
DB, LOL, light the bitches up! Laughing


Forget the sniper, this 'ill do the trick Toofy Grin


http://youtube.com/v/u7UPKMZUBr0
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Dwarf Vader, reeally don't think we could describe those fences as "natural".

More bumps is a frequent cry - what about those people who like doing turns which have a radius more than 3m (i.e., the vast majority of people I see on the hill)? Is it speed that is the problem, or irresponsible speed? I like to ski quite quickly every now and again, if the conditions are suitable. Why should that be prohibited? I'd be very happy to pay an extra £20 or £30 for a lift pass if it meant more slope patrol ensuring that irresponsible skiers are dealt with rather than punishing everyone. I'd be happy to see more tranquil zones, more zoning at busy junctions (using non-lethal netting wink), but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sun 24-02-13 19:48; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
rob@rar wrote:
Dwarf Vader, so what would happen to a nervous lady skier who was hesitantly approaching the end of the piste at a sensible speed, saw the fences and panicked, hitting them directly and ending up with a broken arm? Bonkers, IMO, Swiss or not.


Drastically different to said nervous lady skier coming down at a sensible speed, seeing a big queue, panicking, hitting it directly and breaking someone elses arm?

Not saying it really is a sensible solution (as you say, deals with symptom not cause), but that example just seems to me another one of someone skiing terrain beyond their skills (if they can't avoid/are panicked by a bright red thing that isn't moving, are they safe to be on a slope with many moving people?)...
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Quote:

I'd be very happy to pay an extra £20 or £30 for a lift pass if it meant more slope patrol ensuring that irresponsible skiers are dealt with rather than punishing everyone.

+1
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clarky999, so put lots of netting up, at sufficient distance from the queue so if someone does hit the netting they will stop before they reach the people waiting for the lift. I'm not against traffic calming measures, just those measures which seem designed to punish rather than calm.
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rob@rar, that would also work wink
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rob@rar, lots of rollers, double fall lines etc here, and more gentle grooming so that interesting terrain develops during the day meaning you can ski the same piste in the morning and afternoon and it's a completely different animal. The vast majority of pistes are also considerably narrower than most I've skied in France. The effect seems to be that those who are skilled and competent are not prevented from going fast if they want to, but the terrain tends to naturally slow down those who are less advanced or confident to a speed that is more appropriate (and hence makes those red barriers pretty bloody difficult to hit at any sort of damaging speed) and also helps develop their skills organically, so to speak

ETA: there are plenty enough reports of injuries caused by people getting caught up in netting
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After J's injury, I did email Compagnie des Alpes regarding the obvious bottlneck where he was hit, and the lack of warnings, netting etc etc. As he wasn't evacuated from the pistes they were unaware of the accident, but did offer us a meeting with the local director of CDA on our return. I didn't take them up on it, but I was surprised to find netting, markers and warning signs had been greatly improved on our next visit.
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Despite the calls for greater policing of other people (not me, officer!) speeding, the relatively low injury rate seems to suggest - as you might expect - that the vast majority of skiers aren't as evil as noble snowHeads suggest. But many resorts seem to have been laid out in a way that positively encourages speeding to the detriment of everyone's safety.
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Quote:

tangowaggon, not so, IMO, I guarantee you that I am way faster carving a modern turn on my fatter all round skis than I ever was on my 207 GS skis.

Straight lines included.

Each to their own I guess but carvers definitely slowed me down, on the GS skis I would frequently straight line red runs if there was no-one else on them but carvers are simply too unstable at that 50mph + sort of speed in a straight line. Also, it is more enjoyable to do turns (hence slow down) on carvers.

I was fortunate enough to learn, in one of my first weeks of skiing the consequences of too much speed on a busy piste, it is clear that many others have not done so. I was going way too fast and a skier in front made an unexpected turn into my path, I just clipped him and he fell on the spot, I went end over end for some meters down hill, fortunately no-one hurt but a lesson learned the hard way.

Big orange nets are the way to go, bumps will be used as jumps, hard barriers and obstacles will just hurt more people, I love the bump runs, but I also like to find a perfectly pisted blue / red with no-one else on it and carve it flat out, I don't want some piste patrol stopping me or anyone else from doing this but I do want idiots prevented from blasting through the crowds on busy areas.
It is clear that there are some people that actually make a point of skiing at high speed through crowds, getting as close as possible to others, using them as human slalom posts, deliberately trying to scare them.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rob@rar wrote:
Dwarf Vader, so what would happen to a nervous lady skier who was hesitantly approaching the end of the piste at a sensible speed, saw the fences and panicked, hitting them directly and ending up with a broken arm?.


She'd learn an important lesson that skiing in control means mentally and physically. She wasn't in control so it's on her.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Ted Liggert employed thenpower slide and "the powerful controlled have been using it for eons, a power horizontal parallel is contro personified,yes people hate he unknown skid but worry not its carvingnbut not as I know it
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
If it's skiing within the EEC , set up a commission to look at the problem , generate lots of rules and a license system , make skiers wear helmets, dayglo tabards and control personal protective clothing ,do not allow under 18's to ski on open piste , only within controlled areas.
Have ski patrols that have the power to fine or remove your license, these will be run by private companys . That should make it so convoluted and expensive that people stop skiing, the accidents go down,proving that it was a worth while exercise.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Lessons, lessons and more lessons. Unfortunately there is no way to force people taking them, most stop lessons once they learn to turn their skis in a way resembling parallel and from that point work on "consolidating". Because 99% of the time nothing bad happens it's seen as the way to do it. Learn to turn and practice from there. As result too many skiers are not even making the turn properly, but braking down the fall line, twisting tails etc. Which means that they are just one step away from losing control.
Speeding is linked to this. You are going too fast when you can't stop. If you are in control of what skis are doing, can adjust your moves and speed to changes in conditions and can stop at any time you are not too fast as such.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
This thread strikes me as a lot of talk about solutions that in search of a problem. The actual problems are comparatively rare and, at the risk of getting my head bitten off, I think that 'expert' skiers are just as much part of the problem as beginners and intermediates.

I think the various suggestions that the terrain should be altered (bumps, double fall lines, chicanes, trees, barriers etc.) are pretty ludicrous. Many skiers cannot ski moguls, don't want to ski them, and will tire themselves out rapidly even trying to ski them. How will this increase safety? or enjoyment?

Look at the majority of incidents that have hit the news in recent years. Kennedy, Sonny Bono, girl in Mayrhofen - All hit trees. Richardson - Stationary on a nursery slope.

None of these suggestions would have helped.

If there is a problem that needs addressing, then the greatest one is of skier attitude. Beginners do need to learn the 'rules of the road' but more advanced skiers need to learn that even if THEY are in control it is inconsiderate and dangerous not to adapt their speed to that of others. The most dangerous skiing I see is that of 'experts' skiing flat out amongst less experienced skiers.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
foxtrotzulu wrote:

If there is a problem that needs addressing, then the greatest one is of skier attitude. Beginners do need to learn the 'rules of the road' but more advanced skiers need to learn that even if THEY are in control it is inconsiderate and dangerous not to adapt their speed to that of others. The most dangerous skiing I see is that of 'experts' skiing flat out amongst less experienced skiers.


Agree largely - but seriously how many true experts do you ski skiing flat out in novice crowds? They have no interest in that part of the mountain and are just crusing back to the lift or town generally. IMO it's the blue run heroes that aren't capable of the same sort of speeds on more difficult terrain that that are the real menace on blues and reds.
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foxtrotzulu wrote:
I think the various suggestions that the terrain should be altered (bumps, double fall lines, chicanes, trees, barriers etc.) are pretty ludicrous. Many skiers cannot ski moguls, don't want to ski them, and will tire themselves out rapidly even trying to ski them. How will this increase safety? or enjoyment?

Surely the solution is to make everyone ski uphill and then take the lifts back to the bottom. That would increase the health benefits while removing the (apparently) objectionable speed thingy ... rolling eyes
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pam w wrote:
Quote:

I'd be very happy to pay an extra £20 or £30 for a lift pass if it meant more slope patrol ensuring that irresponsible skiers are dealt with rather than punishing everyone.

+1


Per day? You Rockefellers might achieve your objective through economic exclusion.

I prefer the idea of a Snowheads militia patrolling the slopes, righting wrongs on a vigilante style basis. Kinda like those Guardian Angel type beret wearing nutters who used to ride the NYC subway.
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fatbob, But surely though, any SH-Militia member would be skiing to carefully and consideratly and mindfully of the prevailing conditions to be able to catch the perp.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Richard_Sideways, They'd also have to wear a jaunty beret style helmet cover but would always catch the perp using the power of lessons, grammar and natural superiority - punishments would range from a slideshow of Axsman's fluffy cat pics to a full lecture by Comedy Goldsmith on the Lewes Avalanche. Repeat offenders would have their browsers hacked and diverted to SH helmet threads only.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
fatbob, punishments both cruel and unusual...
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 You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
fatbob wrote:
Richard_Sideways, They'd also have to wear a jaunty beret style helmet cover but would always catch the perp using the power of lessons, grammar and natural superiority - punishments would range from a slideshow of Axsman's fluffy cat pics to a full lecture by Comedy Goldsmith on the Lewes Avalanche. Repeat offenders would have their browsers hacked and diverted to SH helmet threads only.


LOOOOL

You owe me a new keyboard btw, this one has tea in it.
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I think the lives lost are at ape enough level to make the risk.

If I had kids I think my perception of risk might change and I'd be clinging onto them on chair lifts with white knuckles and choosing resorts with the most empty slopes!

I don't think making terrain more challenging around bottlenecks is a good idea! Ski school is a much better idea, lack if lessons is a big contributing factor to stopping in poo-poo places, not looking when setting off, entering a flat blue fun from off piste without looking etc. I tried to get my friends to be more considerate with the choice of waiting point and sitting all together rather than blocking off half the slope today and was met with "it's ok it's the brow of a hill" doesn't make it ok to be so inconsiderate.

More and more happy off piste and less happy on busy crappy busy link or home type runs.
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Swimming, anyone mentioned swimming yet? It's dangerous very dangerous, or more so the lack of swimming I guess. Check out some figures from a a few seconds on google

http://www.rospa.com/leisuresafety/statistics/

http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/water-safety/waterinjuries-factsheet.html

Was listening to freakecomics podcast the other day, they compared risk to US kids of dying from gunshot and residential swimming pools, the pools won.

"DUBNER: One of the questions that we posed in our first book, in Freakonomics, was simply this, what’s more dangerous, if let’s say you’re the parent of young children, what’s more dangerous, a house with a gun in it, or a house with a swimming pool in the backyard? What’s the answer to that question?

LEVITT: Yeah, the answer to that question is incredibly easy. And the swimming pool is far, far more dangerous than the gun when it comes to young children. So what we did is we looked at the number of child deaths that were due to swimming pools, the number of child deaths that were due to guns, and then we put it in terms of how often will a given swimming pool kill a child versus how often will a particular gun kill a child. And it turns out that the swimming pool is far more lethal than the gun, that a given swimming pool is 100 times more likely to lead to the death of a child than a particular gun is to lead to the death of a child. And so, I know a lot of parents who would say I would never let my child go over to the house of someone who has a gun in the house, but I’ve actually never heard anyone say I will never let my child go over to the house of someone who has a swimming pool, when in fact that’s completely reversed when it comes to the risk that the two products actually have."

http://www.freakonomics.com/2013/02/14/how-to-think-about-guns-a-new-freakonomics-radio-podcast/
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waynos, brilliantly insightful atricle from Freakonomics.

I suspect that skiing actually lengthens significantly more lives than it shortens. The statistics show less than one death for every million skier days, and many of those skiers would be idly clogging up their arteries in an armchair if no-one had invented the sport. Add-in the training that many people do to make sure that they're fit enough to enjoy their holiday, and the benefits are huge.

If we conservatively suppose that 5% of skiers are significantly fitter than they'd otherwise be, that (again, conservatively) 20% of these skiers materially increase their lifespan, and that this group skis an average of 300 days in a lifetime, the 100m days skied in any year actually 'save' 3,333 lives. That's 30 prevented heart attacks for every tragic collision with a tree.

Any solution to skiing injuries that reduces participation would therefore increase death rates.
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Quote:

Any solution to skiing injuries that reduces participation would therefore increase the death rates.

Compulsory helmets?, I'm fairly fit and not fat but I produce a lot of heat when I excercise, most of which, I lose from my head and find wearing a helmet or any type of hat when skiing, extremely unpleasant and actually leaves me feeling ill. I manage a helmet on my motorbike but I'm just sat on my arts with little exertion on the bike. Compulsory helmets would probably end my skiing. I have little or no interest in other sports but keep myself fit specifically for skiing.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
tangowaggon, I always wear a helmet, not least because I find a helmet much more comfortable than a hat, but a rational policy maker would oppose compulsory helmets on just those grounds quite apart from any personal liberty issues.

There was a recent study (I can't lay my hands on a link) on cycling rates in various big cities around the world, and there was clear evidence that compulsory helmet wearing dramatically reduces participation. Interestingly, though, a strong culture of wearing cycle helmet wearing, especially when backed up by local campaigns to encourage helmets, was also associated with low participation rates outside the hard-core group of mamils and young studs. The researchers concluded that helmets and helmet publicity encouraged would-be cyclists to dwell on the dangers of cycling rather than the benefits. But it's actually much more dangerous not to cycle than to cycle, as hardly any cyclists die on their bikes but most (yes, seriously!) unfit people will die prematurely as a result of their indolence. Their conclusion was that, statistically, cycle helmets seem to benefit those who wear them but cause harm to the wider population.

I have no idea whether the same dynamics apply to skiing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
foxtrotzulu wrote:
terrain should be altered (bumps, double fall lines, chicanes, trees, barriers etc.)


Number one: I get the impression this thread is confusing "rollers" and "bumps" - they are different.

Number two: rollers, double fall lines etc. are natural topographical features, unless a resort actively flattens them.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Given the miniscule number of fatalities and serious accidents per skier on the hill, we could reasonably stop bossing everyone about and just get on with it really.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
For sure you should ban driving to ski resorts, which will have a significantly higher death toll than people doing stupid things once they're at the resorts. Check how many people die every day on the roads in the UK. Are they a price worth paying to travel? Well apparently they individually felt that the risk was worth the benefit.

Or check the fatalities in the Alps any summer. People die all the time, perhaps we should get used to it.

Ideas of designing resorts so celebrities can freely bang their heads on the ground, refuse medical treatment, yet still survive... I'm not sure what you're going to do. Force everyone to wear head protection (ok, you did that), and then what? It doesn't make any difference to the death rate...

I'd like to see your stats demonstrating that cycling is a relatively dangerous activity. I'm not saying your wrong, it's just that with cycling being safer than walking around in your average UK city, city walking may be a more amusing comparison.

The answer's simple: don't buy the Daily Mail.
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philwig,

Careful about banning cars in resort. Then you will get those horse drawn taxis that sneak up on you and before you know it you are under their hooves. Have you never been to Avoriaz...mind you they have some pretty serious bumps as well Shocked
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philwig wrote:
I'd like to see your stats demonstrating that cycling is a relatively dangerous activity.

You've misunderstood me. Cycling is so good for your health that it's dangerous not to cycle. The risk of death by cycling is very significantly less than the likelihood that you'll live through a long, active, fit and healthy retirement as a direct result of cycling. However, the (admittedly low) mortality rate per participant is rather higher for cyclists than for skiers. It's probably something to do with the relative scarcity of HGVs and speeding BMWs on the pistes.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Ban helmets...

to stop people feeling invulverable.
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altis wrote:
Ban helmets...

to stop people feeling invulnerable.


From research reported at:


http://www.telemarktips.com/Helmets.html



Another widespread criticism of ski helmets is the one involving "risk compensation." This is the theory that people will take more chances when using protective headgear, that the exaggerated feeling of security a ski helmet supposedly affords is likely to lead people into increasing their level of risk-taking on the slopes. The theory posits that skiers and snowboarders will tend to bring their level of thrill back up to their own individual, acceptable level of risk.

This has been a favorite theory of one Dr. Jasper Shealy, a researcher who has been the darling of the National Ski Areas Association (NSSA) for many years. Dr. Shealy, who has been quoted as saying that he doesn't wear a helmet unless it is to keep his head warm, currently shares his thoughts on the NSSA's Lids on Kids website. Incredibly, in this article on an industry site supposedly developed "to help educate parents about putting helmets on their children while they're on the slopes," Shealy allows that he is "not exactly" happy with the trend of increased helmet use. One of the main reasons he gives involves the theory of risk compensation.

Yet in a landmark ski helmet study published in 2004, Brent Hagel, an assistant professor of epidemiology at the University of Calgary, found that helmet use did not lead to riskier behavior or increase the risk of severe injury while skiing and snowboarding. In fact, Hagel discovered that wearing a helmet out on the slopes may reduce the risk of head injury by as much as 29 to 56%. Hagel's study didn't include those who fell and hit their heads but did not sustain an injury because they were wearing a helmet. Including those individuals would have increased the documented protective effect of helmets even more.

Further, in 2005, Dr. Michael Scott of the California State University at Chico, along with several others, published a report entitled "Testing the Risk Compensation Hypothesis for Safety Helmets in Alpine Skiing and Snowboarding. Dr. Scott and his group recorded face-to-face interviews with 1,779 adult skiers and snowboarders at 31 ski areas in Western North America during January-March 2003. Respondents were asked two questions assessing risk compensation: do they (a) ski/snowboard faster, slower or about the same speed, and (b) challenge themselves more, less or about the same. Helmet wearers compared current behavior to when they did not wear a helmet; non-wearers, to previous seasons. The result: helmet use was significantly associated with less risky skiing/snowboarding, and the study's authors concluded that increasing helmet use does not appear to motivate more risk taking. Helmet wearers were said to engage in "less risk behavior than non-wearers, suggesting that decisions to adopt helmets are motivated by safety concerns."
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Dwarf Vader wrote:
..........
A Solid 6 foot fence makes you control yourself........


I was down at the bottom of this run today again and had a closer look at the red barriers and I now see that the posts are not embedded into the snow. They have a small metal bar on the bottom which would push out of the snow easy if hit with force and the fence will fall over.
They are still big lumps of wood which will cause a bruise if hit but they are not solid into the hard pack, they have give. Maybe their bark is worst then their bite.


Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 26-02-13 18:17; edited 1 time in total
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
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Dwarf Vader wrote:
Dwarf Vader wrote:
..........
A Solid 6 foot fence makes you control yourself........


I was down at the bottom of this run today again and had a closer look at the red barriers and I now see that the posts are not embedded into the snow. They have a small metal bar on the bottom which would push out of the snow easy in hit with force and the fence will fall over.
They are still big lumps of wood which will cause a bruise if hit but they are not solid into the hard pack, they have give. Maybe their bark is worst then their bite.

Netting sends the message: "This is a device design to save your life in the event you've gone too fast for the condition". Reaction: go fast and see how close you can miss the netting.

Wooden barrier sends this message: "If you hit it, it's going to hurt!". Reaction: slow way down to be absolutely sure one doesn't make contact with the said barrier.
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Quote:


Given the miniscule number of fatalities and serious accidents per skier on the hill, we could reasonably stop bossing everyone about and just get on with it really.

+1
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Ffs

On my way home sunday i had;

A sleepy truck driver slip into my lane as I overtoom him

My wife waking up and screaming (I have no idea why -I was driving qnd had my hands on the wheel)

Etc

Etc
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