It's that time of year when regular ski fatalities are sensationally reported by the media and discussed by the baying hounds of the Snowheads wolf-pack. As we all know, skiing is a very safe activity with death rates of only 0.7 per million skier days. Injury rates are far lower than for other sports like football, cycling and rugby.
So does that make the death of 100 or more people on the world's snowy mountains a price worth paying for our continued enjoyment? Or is it time for regulators and resorts to take action to reduce the doleful roll-call? If so, what should be done?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Jonny Jones, Interesting idea, however, snowHeads tend to get exercised over a British person being killed whilst other fatalities are ignored/unknown.
For example, whilst discussing the sad death of a British child after falling from a lift this week, the death of a French 15 year old boy on piste in La Plagne on Wednesday went unreported.
Viewers and commentators on snowHeads rarely see the full picture.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Boredsurfing wrote:
Jonny Jones, Interesting idea, however, snowHeads tend to get exercised over a British person being killed whilst other fatalities are ignored/unknown.
For example, whilst discussing the sad death of a British child after falling from a lift this week, the death of a French 15 year old boy on piste in La Plagne on Wednesday went unreported.
Viewers and commentators on snowHeads rarely see the full picture.
Not strictly true. On the 10 year old girl in Mayrhofen thread I posted a link to the Austrian times, as did someone else later in the thread, to highlight other deaths and serious incidents that had occurred in the same week and the preceding couple of weeks.
No ones death is a "price worth paying" but accidents happen in any walk of life. Even staying indoors and barring the windows doesn't guarantee safety.
But no, I don't think there's much can be done to make any sport totally safe; so keep sliding.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
holidayloverxx, Yep, just my point, I hand't read those threads/reports, however, I remain saddened by any death or serious injury whilst following our favourite leisure persuits. snowheads is a good channel to discuss such events but will never prevent such events, sadly.
For the risks exposed to, and the multitude of personal variables involved, it's a ridiculously safe form of recreation. Short of banning it completely, I'm not sure how you can realistically make it appreciably any safer, not in any real world sense anyway.
Not that that's any comfort to those that have suffered or lost.
JMO.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Life is a game you cannot win so enjoy the ride.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Mosha Marc wrote:
No ones death is a "price worth paying"
I agree...
Mosha Marc wrote:
but accidents happen in any walk of life. Even staying indoors and barring the windows doesn't guarantee safety.
But no, I don't think there's much can be done to make any sport totally safe; so keep sliding.
...but this seems to contradict your first statement. You evidently think that accidents are a price worth paying for us all to carry on sliding.
I'm convinced that a great deal could be done to reduce the risk of serious injury or death without affecting our skiing pleasure one iota, but there seem to be complacent shrugs all around. Of course, there would be a financial cost to some measures - but maybe we wouldn't be prepared to pay more for our lift tickets even to save the lives of a few (usually foreign) teenagers.
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Jonny Jones, what would you suggest?
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Jonny Jones, I always have a wry smile when I see the comment "a life saved by ....."
Of course it's not saved, merely delaying the inevitable.
We all have to go sometime and I'd rather I went doing something I enjoyed rather than spending years as a slavering imbecile in an old folks home (to which my wife's rude riposte was - "but you're one now dear !")
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Many people die in car accidents should we stop driving? Should we stop playing football, rugby etc?
Many people die in the Mountains of a heart attack should we stop walking? When people who are unfit die of a heart attack on the couch with fast food in front of the TV, does this get reported or is that the accepted way to die in this day and age?
It's a real shame some suffer ( a workmates father was crippled at the age of 40 after a ski accident ) but if we weren't skiing we would probably be doing something else and getting injured too. Accidents happen, but none of us are going to get off this spinning globe alive so we might as well have fun before we do.
On the Austria TV there are actually advertisements reporting the heath benefits of skiing.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
On the Austria TV there are actually advertisements reporting the heath benefits of skiing.
of course there are health benefits of skiing - that's incontrovertible, as are the deaths and serious injuries. There are health benefits to cycling which, in statistical terms, outweigh the risks. But cycling must be a great deal more dangerous than skiing.
IMV it's wrong to talk of lost lives being a "price worth paying" as though it were akin to the Hunger Games. A more appropriate question is whether the small risk is "worth running". We all run that risk and we should do so knowingly. There are some steps to take to reduce the risk but some risk will remain. The key thing is that we must accept that risk and not moan and groan too much if and when we get injured or say stupid things like "I never thought it would happen to me or my family". If you never thought that, you just never thought.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
clarky999 wrote:
Jonny Jones, what would you suggest?
According to ski-injury.com, most deaths are caused by speed or overambitious jumping. It's hard to blame resort design for the jumps, but speed is the issue IMV.
Modern skis are extremely stable at speed and allow skiers to ski far faster than is wise and high capacity lifts dump huge numbers of these skiers onto perfectly smooth slopes, resulting in high-speed ice-pans at the end of each day. Putting up a few Slow signs is nothing more than a token gesture. If you build a motorway, don't be surprised that cars travel fast.
Resorts should put natural - and therefore fun - traffic calming in place. Several slow, narrow winding paths through the trees have higher capacity but a much lower risk profile than a dangerous piste motorway. Bump runs are slower and more fun than an icy racetrack. Trees, shrubs and natural obstacles left on the trails would slow skiers down to the point where collisions really don't matter. Everyone would have fun and parents would lose fewer children to fatal collisions.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Ok so the death rate of skiing is 0.7 per million days, what is the death rate of travelling to work?, are you less likely to die by going skiing rather than being at home?.
It would be good to get huge enjoyment out of something that carried no risks, but all the things I like the most, carry some risk
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Jonny Jones, eminently sensible suggestions.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
Modern skis are extremely stable at speed
Rubbish, modern carvers are only stable in the turn, my old 200cm GS skis were far more stable and faster in a straight line
Quote:
through the trees
Quote:
Trees, shrubs and natural obstacles
Physically, I'd rather hit another skier than a F****g big tree!!!! but my concience would choose the tree.
I'm with you on the moguls though, ban the bashers
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
deerman,
I'm scared of trees on pistes (scared myself rigid in Snowmass on that account some years ago) but agree about moguls.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
tangowaggon wrote:
Quote:
Modern skis are extremely stable at speed
Rubbish, modern carvers are only stable in the turn, my old 200cm GS skis were far more stable and faster in a straight line
Yeah, but you have to turn eventually, and the ease with which (almost) carved turns can be made with carver skis at speed encourages people to hammer down the slopes at 40mph or more.
Resorts should put natural - and therefore fun - traffic calming in place.
More potential obstacles to crash in to. It's not the kit that's the problem, it's the attitude of some slope users. The skiers I see who are travelling way too fast for their level of control aren't using modern skis effectively, simply using gravity to travel very quickly. I doubt very much whether a stand of trees or some zig-zag bushes in the middle of the piste is going to change the attitude of people who don't respect other slope users (or have much regard for their own well-being).
I think resorts should put intelligent - and therefore effective - traffic calming in place. I'd like to see lift company employees who were charged with cautioning anyone they thought skiing in a dangerous manner (excessive speed, jumps with blind landings) and in serious cases could cancel lift passes.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
I'd like to see lift company employees who were charged with cautioning anyone they thought skiing in a dangerous manner (excessive speed, jumps with blind landings) and in serious cases could cancel lift passes.
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Dwarf Vader, is that half way down a piste, or at the end as you approach a lift? I'd say zig-zag netting would be a safer option and still an effective way to control speed to make sure skiers don't charge at a lift queue at 30mph. Those fences look punitive rather than preventative.
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Dwarf Vader,
Is that snowboarder moving or just getting ready to sit down?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
rob@rar wrote:
Dwarf Vader, is that half way down a piste, or at the end as you approach a lift? I'd say zig-zag netting would be a safer option and still an effective way to control speed to make sure skiers don't charge at a lift queue at 30mph. Those fences look punitive rather than preventative.
If you look at the other pic's in the blog it's just before the lift queue and there is one higher up before the narrow section, It is needed as it still gets guys coming into the queue to quick but at least it if the get it wrong they will not be dragging orange netting into the queue.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Dwarf Vader, thanks. Not something I'd do if I was Head Honcho of a ski resort. Plenty of people lose control even though they are skiing at a sensible speed and acting responsibly. Crashing head first into an immovable object seems a drastic punishment for situations like that.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
When my hubby had a serious accident 4 years ago, I was acutely aware of other reports of serious accidents and deaths. Natasha Richardson died only a few weeks later.
I don't think it has become more prevalent, but perhaps I am more aware that the accidents have happened.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
It looks like the fences are just stabbed into the snow and so would give a bit in the event of a crash. Probably not a bad ideal to set something up that forces a skier to control speed and do a controlled turn.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
rob@rar, It's the Swiss culture, you are responsible for your own actions. No nanny state here.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Dwarf Vader, looks awesome to jib over to me.
The problem with the idea mentioned above is that it treats the symptom rather than the real issue and at the cost of the vast majority who don't ski out of control. Aside from which its still perfectly possible to do yourself serious injury and kill yourself skiing really tight trees. Particularly if there was a whole herd out there doing it at the same time. Basically the OP is suggesting sending everyone down expert terrain which would cause more carnage IMO. At least someone out of control on an open slope has some time to react. Basically putting terrain in place to slow people down won't work because the terrain would drastically reduce the speed required to cause death and serious injury.
A better solution would be controlled access to terrain based on skiing ability measured in some objective fashion. I think that rather goes against the spirit though and have safely skied new skiers down 'black' terrain. Although having witnessed the poo-poo show that is the opening of the Annapurri summit gates I'm almost inclined to agree with that.
At any rate the real solution is continued education so that people as far as possible ski in control. To put it in terms of a 'price worth paying' is crass Daily Mail esque nonsense. I don't choose how other people ski, we are each responsible for our own decision making and the consequences. Blaming the blameless for others actions is senseless and penalising them for the consequences rather daft. Accident mitigation is already very high in controlled resorts as the injury rates testify too.
Anyway this has all the makings of being a massive troll. Next up winter tyres. Amirite?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
tangowaggon, not so, IMO, I guarantee you that I am way faster carving a modern turn on my fatter all round skis than I ever was on my 207 GS skis.
Straight lines included.
And as for my 190 modern GS skis....
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
DB, meh, Boarders do fine the ruts a bit of a bind, I'm sure some would like a quick jump up but believe me the run out is not there if you look closely at the pic you can see a ski where someone has just unclipped.
This system is only at the one lift which I would assume over the years there has been problems with so that is the resort solution.
Dwarf Vader, so what would happen to a nervous lady skier who was hesitantly approaching the end of the piste at a sensible speed, saw the fences and panicked, hitting them directly and ending up with a broken arm? Bonkers, IMO, Swiss or not.
If they were concerned about irresponsible slope users charging down that bit of piste it would be the easiest thing in the world periodically to have a pisteur at the bottom cautioning people and confiscating the liftpass of the most egregious offenders. Word would soon get around, and the vast majority of responsible slope users wouldn't have to deal with immovable objects in the middle of a piste.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Dwarf Vader, hardly, if that was the attitude then they wouldn't put speed calming in place!
Dwarf Vader, I agree with Rob it's nuts. There are plenty of less injurious solutions that would have precisely the same effect that have been used in practice for decades given skiing too fast into lift queues is hardly a new or unique phenomenon.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rob@rar,
The slope is steeper than it looks and is as narrow for 30-40metres and it does get a lot of people on it who are on the lower side of skilled. It is at the bottom of a very nice blue, I think by the time they have got there they have already had a panic about the narrow bit so they are not moving very fast at all by then.
There is enough warning both signed and visual about how it goes and I have not seen anyone hit them at all while I've been here.
After all it is free
After all it is free
meh wrote:
A better solution would be controlled access to terrain based on skiing ability measured in some objective fashion.
What about they ski past and a panel of judges hold up scorecards.
The few hundred thousand of East European skiers that frequent the East Austrian ski resorts (nearest to here in Vienna) should get a safety demonstration on the coach (similar to an airline safety briefing) and a ski assesment.
I've got it - Paintball sniper rifles are the answer.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Dwarf Vader, so the signage is the important bit then not the hefty gert barriers.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
snowheads is a good channel to discuss such events but will never prevent such events, sadly.
