Are chairlifts safe enough?

A snowHead

This horrible accident in Italy yesterday strengthens my opinion that chairlifts are badly designed especially for younger people. I had an incident many years ago where a young child was placed beside me in a chairlift. I noticed half way up that the wee one's bottom was actually slipping towards the edge of the seat - pulled down by her skis. I managed to wedge her with my ski pole and she flopped out at the end safely. It did make me wonder why the bar is so high in relation to a child and if chairlift technology has moved on much since the sixties? The old 'one bar per chair' type (like the previous Cairngorm chairlift) struck me as safer. I am now have a heightened awareness when I chairlift with my own kids. The Lecht incident does nothing for my confidence....

A snowHead

Sofia, I think they're pretty safe; accidents are thankfully rare. It will be instructive to see what the outcome is of the Italian enquiry. Most kids are probably at greater risk hurtling down a busy autoroute at 80 mph in the rain with a whole lot of very badly secured luggage behind their heads and a driver who has been behind the wheel for much of the previous 10 hours after a busy day at the office.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

..and how do they get away with no safety bars in the States?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

there are some shocking lifts but in the main i think they are improving, i saw specific devices on a few lifts last winter to stop kids slipping out.

If you think about the operating time and number of people moved uphill by them they appear to be very safe. Having said that, in recent weeks there does seem to have been a spate of incidents. I fell off a single seat chair in Going, nr Ellmau when i learnt to ski (back in the 80's) luckily i landed on softish snow and apart from some leg ache was fine but those singles struck me as much more unsafe than the multiple seat chairs of today...

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

They have kid-stop devices on lots of chairs, certainly in italy. To the extent that they become annoying to those of us above average size. But having been forced to accompany 5yo kids on a chair before (ESF can stick that - get more teachers per class! don't rely on public to accompany your kids!), I can understand why they are there, and are merely a minor inconvenience.

Also a handful of chairs have bars that are locked and won't open until the chair has detached from the cable in the end station. I can see those becoming more common.

After all it is free

I think that most chairlifts are safe enough, but as with most things, there is always an element of risk that cannot be entirely removed. Thankfully, tragic accidents are rare. Chairlift design is improving all the time, and the detachable lifts with automatic bars and child bar contraptions can now been seen in many resorts.

As to the Italian chairlift that sadly the girl fell from this week, I have been on this lift numerous times, with school groups. It is the older non-detachable type, so I can only speculate that as the girl fell from the chair shortly after getting on, she may not have managed to sit properly on the chair when loading. This seems a fairly common problem, especially with inexperienced children/teenagers. They are often unprepared for the chair's arrival, and some bum shuffling, pole untangling faff is common before the safety bar can be pulled down?
Some lifts I have been on (TS Mouille au Chat in Let Gets springs to mind) can be positively brutal on loading, but the Claviere lift is not.
Still, it isa sad time for skiing at the moment, with a number of children being hurt in recent weeks.

They had magnetic devices, on chairs and a special vest, on some of the lifts in Courchevel.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

similar safety record to TGV trains and passenger aircraft.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Yes. Jeez

snow reports

Some are less safe/more scary than others.

It must be a terrible time for that young girl's family and her school and sadly no system will be completely, 100% safe, but broadly I'd say that chairlifts are a safe enough way of getting up the hill.

You know it makes sense.

I've never particularly liked chairlifts because you carn't self rescue and in the event of a stoppage there is a good chance of freezing to death.

However I've never fully understood why they have to be so high off the ground, although apparently the recent fatality was only from 16' which isn't particularly high.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

Yes. 13 yr old isn't a vulnerable small child and I'm struggling to think how she could have actually fallen off if adequately trained and obeying instructions.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

You need to Login to know who's really who.

It will be interesting to see if any conclusions are made from this sad event.

Lets remember that skiing is not a "safe" activity and anyone venturing up the mountain needs to be aware of certain risks (usually not chairlift related deaths, but it has happened before)

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Yup... They only add bars in the states that require them legally... Otherwise the Ski Area would be responsible for ensuring their use, etc, etc.....

It cracks me up the number of people that still REFUSE the bar to come down when I ask.... It's coming down regardless buddy!

If you've ever seen a chair do a full e-stop and the chairs swing up, nearly hit the rope, then come back just as hard (thankfully the chair was under maintenance at the time, but I've seen what could happen!).... you'll put the bar down!!!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Regards safety bars or lack of in the US a lot of doubles and triples were built at a time many State's lift codes actually forbid the fitting of safety bars. These lifts have largely stayed that way, partly for the liability issues others have raised - safety bars are responsible for a fair number of loading and unloading incidents and injuries. There is also in some cases a desire to minimise surface area that can catch cross winds and in some cases codes or permits don't permit safety bars on lifts sitting less than four persons.

On that subject there is a reason that recent high speed lifts at the likes of Heavenly and Kirkwood around Tahoe have not been built as the bubble style chairs becoming more common in the Alps, the biggest powder days are often fairly stormy when the snow is still belting down and such superfluous fixtures significantly reduces the wind tolerance of the lifts. Though not to such a severe extent as bubbles that act as sails, padded safety bars and the types on the few lifts with automated safety bars with 'child stop' fittings also result in reducing the lifts wind operating tolerances. In the event of a sudden wind increase, these features actually detract from safety by increasing the surface area of the carriers and as a result the wind load.

If you are sitting back in a chair, you are not going to slide off it, safety bars actually encourage people to slouch forward into what is a potentially unsafe position - esp for smaller persons (whether young children or not). The original restriction on safety bars in the States is not as barmy as most who are used to Alpine lifts tend to think, I have seen people fall off chairs (fortunately not from any height or with any damage other than to pride) as they panic to get the safety bar down before their more than 2ft off the ground.

If you can't reach or can't get a safety bar down for whatever reason, don't continue to fight with it, don't reach forward and stretch up to try and grab it or lever more force on it - the best thing is just to sit right back in the chair.

Sorry this is going off topic a bit from the original tragic accident, which from the reports in the media it's not at all clear what happened as the reports seem rather contradictory. Thoughts with everyone involved, beyond terrible for all concerned. Sad

After all it is free

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

Alastair Pink Shocked

sounds like you're packing large!

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Zero-G, I think it was more dependent on the exact seating position! Laughing

snow reports

We had a local kid probably aged 4 put next to my son (11) on no 66 in Vallandry last week. He was excitable to say the least. He jabbered all the way up but then decided at one point to do a full 180 to look over his shoulder to look at something. He ended up perched one cheek on, one cheek off at which point I made a grab for him and told him to sit still and park his bum where it was supposed to be. Lots of lifts in that area have the kid stoppers, but this one didn't and its a good 5 or 6 m drop most of the way. For me it was pretty scary and the first time I've ever felt like someone was actually going to fall by slipping under the bar. The point being though this was a really small child who would need some supervision anyway (by that I mean an 'aware' adult). I did think though how I'd have felt if he had slipped and Id not been able, willing or aware enough to make the grab.
Its also worth saying I wasn't aware of the sad fatalities so I wasn't acting with any particular raised awareness.

Chair lifts and young children have always concerned me since my own were small, and we witnessed a young child hanging by bits of clothing off a chair lift in Avoriaz! Thankfully rescued safely. Very scary though!

You know it makes sense.

There seems to be a standard media response to headline-grabbing accidents which distorts risk. If you have an interesting accident with a child in it, or a boring one with a celebrity in it, then we're encouraged to perceive a huge risk. Lots of people die on the roads every day.

In Canada I've often been asked by ski school people to look after kids on the chair lift. Specifically they will hand you a kid, and you (as a tourist snowboarder) have to make sure they get off at the top and meet again with the instructor. When it first happened I couldn't understand how come they didn't want my CRB check, but on reflection it's a country without the Daily Mail. I don't know kids ages, but these have been from tiny things who I'd guess may be 5 up to borderline "yoofs" who I suppose are 12 or so.

It's like crossing the road: it's fundamentally dangerous if your parents haven't told you how to do it, after which point for most of us it's fundamentally safe. If you're old enough to ride without supervision, then you're old enough to ride the lift. That's part of what being "old enough" is.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Don't know if they do it in the ski schools, but when I went Canada for summer, whatever we did (swimming in public spa baths, very slow horse riding behind the leader etc) we had to sign very long legal agreements absolving them of liability

Got so fed up I started telling the "salespeople" that they weren't legally enforceable etc

Also started annotating individual clauses and adding additional clauses at the end- that was quite funny when they didn't know what to do, , my wife hated me for causing hassle

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

bertie bassett, Laughing

You need to Login to know who's really who.

I've seen several people fall of chairlifts, but not come to any harm. When I rode a motorbike I came off it three times, over the years - no serious damage done but I could have fallen under a truck. Accidents are like that.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I think there is another factor to consider. I have been skiing for about forty years now, although you do not need to have been skiing that long to see the changes in uphill transport that have happened. Over the years pomas and T bars which used to be everywhere have gradually disappeared to be replaced by chairlifts which more and more tend to be high capacity detachable chairs. I can remember when a detachable triple was a novelty. Nowadays an old two seater chair or twin draglift, is likely to be replaced by at least a four seater detachable.

We all appreciate the comfort and convenience of high speed chairs, but if something goes seriously wrong, pomas and T bars are much safer. Sure people fall off pomas and T bars more often but the injuries when they do happen, will not usually be disastrous.

So therefore not only has the capacity of uphill transport increased dramatically, so has the nature of it, meaning that we have far more children taking chair journeys every hour than we had years ago. To me it is therefore not surprising that more children are becoming involved in serious accidents on chairs. I am afraid that the statistics will dictate that more accidents will occur which will inevitably draw media attention to the issue.

The accident rate may overall be low, but with any safety issue the question is can things be safer still. I think that the main area that could be looked at is that of unaccompanied younger children.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Junior is only 8, but very tall for his age and has been perfectly OK on all the chair lifts I have ever ridden/seen him on. He is a fiddler/wriggler and if it were possible to get yourself into trouble then I'm pretty sure he would have managed it. The mushette on the other hand is under the 120/125 limit that a lot of resorts place on their chair lifts so she has to ski the noddy slopes even though she is at least as good as her older brother. I would worry about her riding chair lifts without trusted supervision as she is so slight and skinny that she could easily slip under the bar and I doubt very much if she could put her skis on the foot bar. As a side note I can't put my skis on most of them either s my legs are too long.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Chairs are intrinsically safe if you sit still. You are hanging in very stable position. If the chair wobbles your mass is always pointing down in gravitational terms. There is no real need for a bar..but it does provide confidence. I mostly volunteer to help kids on the lifts but its getting difficult because of liability issues in some countries.

After all it is free

The biggest issues appear to be small children sliding off or adults being stupid. I can't talk about the later but my sons have been protected by their parents putting ski poles across them as an extra safety bar bridging between a solid part of the bar/chair and our hands. The gap between bar and chair is enormous and could easily let a small child through. Most of the ski school kids I have sat next to in France have completely ignored me and sat still until the top except for the little girl last week who complained that she didn't want to sit with 'les Anglais' and proceeded to look suspiciously at me until the top.

Safety devices are a good idea in principle but not every lift and not every seat has one so very often my youngest son (who is 7.5 and 120cm tall) doesn't get the 'safe' seat especially when it is busy. We have taken the route of teaching the boys to sit back and sit still as primary safety is more important than the bar.

musher, I thought the 120cm limit was for an unaccompanied child. Given the way my boys ski (jumping on/off piste, nagging to go to the park) I don't let them ski alone although do let them ski behind. We have been taking the kids on chairs since they were 5 and 3.5 years old.

All our chair lifts have safety bars, but most do not have foot rests since they are really not needed.
Our ski school has a Children's Chairlift Code of Conduct which is basically "sit back, sit still, hold on". When kids have to ride a chairlift without an instructor we load no more than two to a chair, have then ride with an adult if possible, and the kids always sit on the outsides of the chair where they can hold on to the arm rest. Kids are not allowed to lower the safety bar, that is an adult's job. Our lift ops are responsible for ensuring kids have loaded properly, and do stop the chair when necessary.

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

In Swiss resorts I saw a bar near the lifts showing the minimum height a child should be to be able to ride a chair lift unaccompanied by an adult, I think it's 125 cm but I am not certain. Lift operators also watch out to make sure kids are loaded properly and slow lifts down when necessary. Ski instructors with group of children usually ask other skiers/instructors to help them ride children up.

Help!!

Are chairlifts safe enough?

snowHeads Forum Index >>> The Piste