 Poster: A snowHead
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| maggi wrote: |
I like France and the French. What I don't like is the attitude of treating us all like 3 year olds.
TO host:
"This is social skiing. I show you the pistes, lifts with the least queues and somewhere nice to have lunch. I don't teach, I'm not a qualified guide and you take full responsibility for yourself, but I am operating as a 'professional' as it's part of my job and part of the holiday package you've paid for."
Punter:
"Thanks. I'm an adult and I understand and agree to the deal."
I don't understand what the hell it has to do with anyone else, French or Martian  . |
There, I've fixed it for you.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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feef, a "professional" what?
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"it's part of my job" |
Thanks. As I said, I'm an adult and I understand and agree to the deal.
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| "part of the holiday package you've paid for." |
So is the hotel swimming pool. Are the disclaimer notices illegal if I drown? Can I expect a sexy French qualified lifeguard to watch over me next year? 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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French sport is more highly regulated than we are used to in the UK - where, for example, you can just buy a big powerful yacht, decide not to bother with life-rafts, flares etc, and take off to sail round the world. You can't do that in France. British sport has become more regulated too - for example after those people were drowned in a canoe accident in Lyme Bay and the organisers were found guilty of negligence (I think that's the way it went).
maggi, you describe a verbal "contract" but that arrangement would still, as I understand it, be subject to law if it were made in England - you could voluntarily enter into a contract which could still be struck down as unlawful in court. I could say I was an adult and understood and agreed to a deal for somebody to give me a lethal injection but it wouldn't stop them being prosecuted. That's a rather extreme example, but there are plenty of examples of the law deciding to take a hand in arrangements between consenting adults.
It does seem a rather daft decision, to us, given the nature of "ski hosting" but, for the time being, that's the way it is. But how much difference does it really make? Ski hosting was available in a small number of French ski resorts and won't be available unless and until a different legal decision is made. It is still available, it seems, in a rather smaller number of Austrian and Italian resorts, for people to whom this aspect of a holiday is "of the essence" and who don't want to take advantage of one of the many, many, excellent ski schools and courses which exist.
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pam w, I don't actually need hosting as my OH is a whizz with a piste map and we usually go with other people too. I am just against the whole principle of the law getting involved in stuff it was never intended for. Nothing to do with the French - I would feel the same if something similar happened in England. (And yes, the lethal injection thing was a bit extreme!  )
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| maggi wrote: |
feef, a "professional" what?
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"it's part of my job" |
Thanks. As I said, I'm an adult and I understand and agree to the deal.
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| "part of the holiday package you've paid for." |
So is the hotel swimming pool. Are the disclaimer notices illegal if I drown? Can I expect a sexy French qualified lifeguard to watch over me next year? |
no, but if the TO provided an unqualified employee to take responsibility for the group poolside, would that be seen as acceptable?
The individual can accept all responsibility they like, but the company providing a service will always have a duty of care, and a responsibility to ensure they meet legal and safety requirements. Whether you require that or not is neither here nor there.
equally, the hotel are providing the pool, not the TO, and so it's up to the hotel to ensure it meets all requirements.
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| feef wrote: |
| no, but if the TO provided an unqualified employee to take responsibility for the group poolside, would that be seen as acceptable? |
It would be better than no-one. At least they could press the alarm. Like using a TO host is probably safer than skiing alone.
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| The individual can accept all responsibility they like, but the company providing a service will always have a duty of care, and a responsibility to ensure they meet legal and safety requirements. |
If they were negligent they would get sued. This would be true before and after this new ruling.
(I'm bored now. Let's agree to disagree.)
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| maggi wrote: |
(I'm bored now. Let's agree to disagree.) |
No... this is the internets, such rational and reasonable behaviour is verboten and the argument must go on until it gets so extreme that it's just silly, and only ending when someone mentions Nazis..
damnit, there you go.. all done.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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feef,
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I can confirm Mr maggis willingness and capability to guide a group around. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| feef wrote: |
| ... only ending when someone mentions Nazis... |
This thread shall last a thousand years!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Richard_Sideways, Richard, google Godwin's law 
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under a new name, hey i'm just surprised the French didn't surrender... although to be more accurate they've mounted a stiff resistance arounda massive immovable line of defense which looks impressively impenetrable, but on close inspection is easily circumvented (possibly via Belgium, as usual).
"Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it" - G. Santayana
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You know it makes sense.
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I have had nothing but good experiences in 8 trips to Val D'Isere. I really don't get the anti-French, anti-ESF bias. My wife has had good experiences with ESF instructors and never any problems with them not speaking English. She wound up with ESF because none of the private schools could guarantee that they would have an adult group of her level during a slow week (they all wanted at least 5 people signed up whereas ESF had no such issues). If you don't like ESF, don't use them. If you don't like France, there are plenty of other places to ski. The British owned private ski schools should be grateful that they are allowed to operate at all (in the U.S., the resort has a monopoly over the ski school business and there are no private schools).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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chraya,
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The British owned private ski schools should be grateful that they are allowed to operate at all
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Why? Did you know this was only possible after a lengthy legal battle. As much as I love skiing in France and even the French to a degree do not underestimate their patriotic and socialist tendencies.
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Poster: A snowHead
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chraya, and EU Freedoms? And the ESF's efforts to thwart them (through the French qualifying body) among other routes?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Competition is imperfect in France but seemingly non-existent in North America and not exactly ubiquitous in Austria. So France is not doing very well, but probably the best of a bad bunch. Monopoly status is rarely given up without a battle - Corn Laws, anyone? How many people in the UK would like to boot out immigrants who work hard for half the money demanded by illiterate British school leavers?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Isn't the North American model very different though. Aren't the resorts privately owned and/or run inc lifts, ski schools, catering, etc by one company.
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fatbob, Which EU freedoms? The French law doesn't say that EU nationals cannot work, it only says that certain work requires certain qualifications. It's non-discriminatory as it applies equally to French nationals.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Claude B wrote: |
| Isn't the North American model very different though. Aren't the resorts privately owned and/or run inc lifts, ski schools, catering, etc by one company. |
Yep and while I think lack of competition is cited as a bad thing I've certainly enjoyed the benefit of free mid-week group lessons offered as an incentive to drive more mid week skier visits (& ticket sales/ rentals/ food & beverage etc). Interestingly the freebies have generally been the resorts' top grade of instructors, presumably on the "best advert" basis.
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| Layne wrote: |
chraya,
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The British owned private ski schools should be grateful that they are allowed to operate at all
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Why? Did you know this was only possible after a lengthy legal battle. As much as I love skiing in France and even the French to a degree do not underestimate their patriotic and socialist tendencies. |
Or, how to quote someone out of context.
"The British owned private ski schools should be grateful that they are allowed to operate at all (in the U.S., the resort has a monopoly over the ski school business and there are no private schools)."
The parentheses gives a different context and point.
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and is there a mainstream skiing nation which gives more genuine competition and "open doors" to new businesses, whether they be chalet operators, ski schools, etc. I suggested above that the level of competition in France, albeit imperfect, was possibly the best of a bad lot. Am I right?
To argue that a monopoly is justifiable because standards are high and you can get free offers is hardly in the spirit of free trade.  A supplier with high standards offering good value for money arguably has nothing to fear from competition.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
| We are all making the assumption that ESF give a toss |
I personally don't give a toss anyway, but playing Devil's Advocate, let me imagine this arsebook page says something along the lines of 'like this if you object to the French court's decision to blah, blah, blah', then I'm sure les vestes rouges will not be quaking in their Rossis either.
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and is there a mainstream skiing nation which gives more genuine competition and "open doors" to new businesses, whether they be chalet operators, ski schools, etc. I suggested above that the level of competition in France, albeit imperfect, was possibly the best of a bad lot. Am I right?
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Hard to measure, but in what way is France more 'pro-competition' than Austria, Italy and Switzerland? (Genuine question by the way, if that didn't come across properly)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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pam w, I'm not saying it's great for the consumer but there's 1000s of US skiers skiing for the season on passes that cost less than a week in Europe because of very local monopolies and the competition between them. And the "total $ per skier visit" is what they try to optimise. Resorts recognise that they are competing for share of skiers (local, domestic tourists and international) and will flex their offering a lot (stay & ski free in low season etc etc). Different model, different legal system and property rights, not better not worse generically - whether it is to the individual depends on what their needs and preferences are. So called "destination resorts" like Whistler exploit their top $ status but places that are world class in other areas e.g. Mt Baker, Red Mountain have a very different dynamic.
That said I'm sure if the Forest Service in a particular state only granted leases to a single company they might be forced to reconsider. It wouldn't be healthy for instance for Vail Resorts to own all the Front Range as it wouldn't for Companie des Alpes to "own" all Haute Savoie.
If there's genuine "open doors" in France for outsiders I suspect it's because a while back farmers and locals thought they could cash out better by selling land and businesses to outsiders/developers at a premium rather than any inherent desire for equality of opportunity. The same thing is now what's driving out the younger generation of e.g. native Chamoniards.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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in what way is France more 'pro-competition' than Austria, Italy and Switzerland?
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I don't know. I've not suggested the French are "pro-competition" (that would be absurd) but I have suggested that there is, in practice, more choice of ski schools in France (French and British) and of foreign-owned and operated accommodation such as catered chalets.
That's my assertion - it's really up to anybody who disagrees with it to provide some evidence.
I really don't know about ski hosting/social skiing. There have been some suggestions that it's not been so widespread outside France but maybe that's wrong. Do most British TOs offer ski hosting in Austria, Italy and Switzerland?
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| pam w wrote: |
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in what way is France more 'pro-competition' than Austria, Italy and Switzerland?
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I don't know. I've not suggested the French are "pro-competition" (that would be absurd) but I have suggested that there is, in practice, more choice of ski schools in France (French and British) and of foreign-owned and operated accommodation such as catered chalets.
That's my assertion - it's really up to anybody who disagrees with it to provide some evidence.
I really don't know about ski hosting/social skiing. There have been some suggestions that it's not been so widespread outside France but maybe that's wrong. Do most British TOs offer ski hosting in Austria, Italy and Switzerland? |
I can't think of many foreign-owned ski schools in Austria (can't comment on France, Italy, Switz as I have no idea), and tbh I'm not sure there's the demand either (with the Dutch and Germans making up a significant proportion of tourists, less 'need' for native-English speaking providers), but there are many foreign independant guides - Piste to Powder, one if the bigger outfits in St Anton are run by a Brit, and there are plenty of Skandis too. Can think of several Brit and Skandi (and German, and Australian) bar/accommodation owners in quite a few resorts. I'm not able to compare with other countries, but I'd be surprised if it were the case - more British (specifically, rather than 'just foreign') running businesses in France maybe, as traditionally it's more common for Brits to learn French than German, and being nearer more common to holiday in France (summer and winter).
Genuinely no idea about the ski hosting, I can't remember ever coming across it anywhere.
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You know it makes sense.
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So - can anyone come up with evidence which would undermine the suggestion that there is more choice of different ski holiday styles, and ski schools, in France than in the other countries? From the all-in UCPA model, quite widespread, and other cheap more family-oriented hostelly style arrangements, Club Med (similar model but upmarket), huge range of rented accommodation from cheap rabbit hutch to plenty of super-glitzy apartments, hotels, catered chalets from basic/cheap to millionaire/luxury.
And of course, a vast range of resorts from the enormous ski factories of the Tarentaise down to hundreds of small local hills and everything between.
I do think the court action of chasing out the ski hosting offered by TOs is pathetic, and certainly anti-competitive. I hold no brief for the ESF (I invariably use their competitors, the ESI) but the lack of evidence and decent analysis in some of these knee-jerk attacks on the French just offends my sense of what constitutes a rational argument.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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as it wouldn't for Companie des Alpes to "own" all Haute Savoie.
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Slight difference in France - everybody owns the mountains - the sub companies of C de A (eg STGM STVI) are only licensed to operate the lifts under close scrutiny from Le Mairie.
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I'm not saying it's great for the consumer but there's 1000s of US skiers skiing for the season on passes that cost less than a week in Europe because of very local monopolies and the competition between them.
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But we'd better not compare the price of a weeks ticket for a punter.........
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Poster: A snowHead
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| maggi wrote: |
| pam w, I am just against the whole principle of the law getting involved in stuff it was never intended for. ) |
The Napoleonic code was intended to permeate every single aspect of society and its life.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The really funny thing is that any one who owned a B&B / Hotel in Aviemore and wanted to offer a "ski hosting" service on Cairngorm (i.e in the UK) would need the Scottish Ski Leader qualification.....
Details here.
http://www.snowsportscotland.org/become-a-leader
Something for the "French are being unreasonable" brigade to consider
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Haggis_Trap, it wouldn't be a particularly tasking job, and not really one that would need you to spend the whole week with your group... 
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| chocksaway wrote: |
Slight difference in France - everybody owns the mountains. |
What gave you that idea? The "mountains", ski runs included, are owned either by private individuals (farmers) or sometimes by the local community.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap, it wouldn't be a particularly tasking job, and not really one that would need you to spend the whole week with your group... |
Unless you were a very slow skier, I can't think of any resort in the French Alps that a TO representative could justifiably spend more than a day or two showing you around either. On the other hand, I can well imagine a real mountain guide in the back coires of Nevis Range in Scotland spending a day or two showing you the safer drops in, the routes through the coires that avoid the cliff bands on the way and navigational tips so as to avoid falling through the ice into the hidden, snow-covered lochans.
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| moffatross wrote: |
| under a new name wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap, it wouldn't be a particularly tasking job, and not really one that would need you to spend the whole week with your group... |
Unless you were a very slow skier, I can't think of any resort in the French Alps that a TO representative could justifiably spend more than a day or two showing you around either. On the other hand, I can well imagine a real mountain guide in the back coires of Nevis Range in Scotland spending a day or two showing you the safer drops in, the routes through the coires that avoid the cliff bands on the way and navigational tips so as to avoid falling through the ice into the hidden, snow-covered lochans. |
But are English or French guides allowed there just in case you might not like the Scots?
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the worst whingers about skiing in France are the people who don't even ski there
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not true, the worst whingers about skiing in France are .... the French! Gawd I've heard them complain: 'Bloody roast bif blocking up our lifts and asking for warm beer all the time'
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It's almost axiomatic that the worst whingers about France are the people who don't ski there.... there are plenty of other places to ski, after all. It would be cussed to choose to spend your holidays in a country you couldn't stand! That's perfectly understandable, but what I don't understand is why some SHs who have chosen to ski elsewhere spend such a lot of time whinging about France. People who ski in France don't whinge about Austria or Italy in the same way.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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On a more serious note this may have implications for snowheads who own/run chalets - I mean, where is the line drawn? If you as a chalet owner go skiing with your guests and the locals notice and report you, how is that different from a tour guide for a TO?? It is arguably a service you are supplying adjunct to the main service of board and lodging. Could get quite interesting next season.
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pam w, Why are you extrapolating a whinge about the protectionist attitude of a certain very specific subset of the French and the consequent impact it has on certain British (& Dutch, Scandi etc presumably) holidaymakers, making their holiday experience less enjoyable or more costly, to an accusation amounting to xenophobia or hatred of a country?
Nothing is entirely independent: you can accept the "their country, their rules, we should be happy to be allowed in" argument or you can challenge whether they are interfering with the status quo in the direct interests of lining their own pockets under spurious "safety" or whatever grounds. If I was a TO or a confirmed chalet holiday fan I'd be worried that the trojan horse of the hosting issue has enabled the bigger issue of forcing les etrangers out through minimum wage enforcement to gather steam, and depsite the huffing and puffing about lack of hosting that would be the gamechanger in terms of affordable holiday destinations.
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FAQ
