 Poster: A snowHead
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| jimmer wrote: |
| I want interesting journalism and great photos, done by people who live the ski life and care about it, not some London tossers who once did a season as a chalet bitch and now think they can ski. |
+1 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| jimmer wrote: |
| As I said, I like Powder a lot. With Fall line, if they know what they're talking about, why is their mag so punter-y? And why do their youtube videos feature people who can't ski, waffling nonsense? |
Possibly knowing their customer base.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| jimmer wrote: |
| As I said, I like Powder a lot. With Fall line, if they know what they're talking about, why is their mag so punter-y? And why do their youtube videos feature people who can't ski, waffling nonsense? |
Their biggest market is probably with punters. I agree their gear reviews are awful, some of the worst out there, but I quite like the rest of the mag, usually an interesting travel article in most editions.
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Of course Fall Line's biggest market is with the average skier (punters?) and so it should be, there's nothing wrong with that. The problem is not its target audience but its content, and that is what lets it down.
An example of what I'd like to see is a proper review of avi shovels where they take 10 shovels, test them, weigh them, use them, break them and then score them. This is not subjective, I want to know that product A is lighter than product B but it has sloped shoulders and hence doesn't allow you to use your foot to dig, therefore it may be lighter but we give it a lower score. This sort of test happens every month in Practical Boat Owner, Yachting Monthly, Sailing Today especially when it comes to safety equipment. My understanding is that these reviews are taken seriously by manufacturers and they influence design. What you get in FL is a feature on backcountry gear and "you'll need a shovel, here's one that we got sent for free."
Another good example of what FL should be looking to replicate is Trail magazine. Yes, it's not the most technically advanced content in the market but they know their audience, they know that they're mass market but the content is still good quality. Lots of in depth information about walking locations with logistics provided, genuinely independent reviews from dedicated staff. They do a great job of pulling new people into the sport/activity but at the same time still manage to provide interviews with hugely respected figures such as Alan Hinkes and Sir Ranulph Fiennes and also show you how to progress from being an occasional rambler into scrambling, winter walking and mountaineering.
A few have commented here about a desire for a UK based specialist ski magazine but I'm not sure that's the thrust of the OP. There's always going to be a place for specialist magazines with in depth essays, expedition reports, etc but that doesn't have to be at the expense of good content in a mass market magazine.
Apologies for picking on FL, it's the best of a bad bunch. I suspect that it all boils down to skiing being a seasonal sport and that gives magazines a small budget.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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doorman_tom, ....this post is spot on IMHO.
I think that the standards in the ski press are LOW.
The example of a rational and controlled test of shovels is exactly right. Doing this would increase pressure - in the right way - for better product. All ski bindings are not the same...remember the pre-release problem with a well-known binding of six years ago?
Even where the existing press do advertorial, it's often unnecessarily superficial. If a town wants to promote itself, then let them do it in such a way that readers get a genuine insight into what the place offers.
The main problem is the very small reader base of skiing mags and the trivial amount of profit that can be made.
In a couple of months I will put out a request for articles and maybe we can start something more suitable online. Snowheads is great, but I want to read substantial articles sometimes. I'm up to my ears in other work right now, but I think we ought to see who out there can write decent stuff....
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It's all over for UK printed ski magazines, I'm afraid. Even in the boom years of the 1980s, when I was very actively involved in the writing and editing of them, and there was loads of advertising revenue, profitability was hard to achieve.
It's time for someone to producing a winning editorial-based website, because this can offer far richer content and unlimited photos + video. This format also facilitates gear reviews of the type advocated above, but people have to decide who is going to finance truly independent content - the readers, the advertisers, or both?
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I disagree, I still much prefer reading print than digital (though my Kindle is nicer than expected) - and I don't think I'm the only one. Agree it's not likely to be massively profitable, but there's still a market.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| It's all over for UK printed ski magazines, I'm afraid. |
I think so too but, for a while longer, one or maybe two will prevail as others fall over. But eventually, I agree, doomed, and none have yet successfully cracked to the online space. Specialist sports titles on the newsstand are not dead though (look at cycling, golf, running) but wintersports suffers from being so seasonal - ad sales people, for example, have to be at it nearly all year round to fill slots in mags that only appear 3-4 times per autumn/winter and editorial staff costs are proportionately bigger per issue than a title coming out 12 times per year.
In the UK I reckon Ski & Snowboard (what was Daily Mail Ski) will lead from here on in thanks to new Daily Telegraph ownership and the best established newsstand presence. They also have the lever of two ski shows. Market leaders do often get stronger in shrinking markets and I reckon it'll be the case in ski.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Do the magazines really have to be seasonal, though? Run more tests/trips/etc in the winter, and report them in summer editions? Summer glacier (freestyle mainly admittedly) and Southern Hemisphere stuff going on too, interviews can be done at any time of year... I'd still buy the mags in summer anyway.
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clarky999, for sure, there must be a degree of demand in the summer but I'm guessing the newstrade won't stock them and most advertisers won't support it. I think Daily Mail did try it once.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
It's all over for UK printed ski magazines, I'm afraid. Even in the boom years of the 1980s, when I was very actively involved in the writing and editing of them, and there was loads of advertising revenue, profitability was hard to achieve.
It's time for someone to producing a winning editorial-based website, because this can offer far richer content and unlimited photos + video. This format also facilitates gear reviews of the type advocated above, but people have to decide who is going to finance truly independent content - the readers, the advertisers, or both? |
You've hit the nail on the head there, very much agree. The print model is dying, and is almost completely dead for niche publications (newspapers have a way to go yet).
Ski equipment in the UK is an almost non-existent market. The only major manufacturer that maintains any real UK presence is Salomon, and all the others - as far as I know - rely entirely on distributors. Avalanche shovel manufacturers, for example, have no budget to market themselves to the UK public.
The market that does exist in the UK is for ski holidays and tourism (or 'punters', as clarky999 said  ). UK-based tour operators and lots of ski resorts actively market themselves to UK skiers.
Since publications - Welove2ski.com included - rely on advertising, what choice is there but to create content that will attract the kind of readers that represent revenue? And that's why there's a lack of publications that can afford to do a thorough reviews of all the avalanche shovels on the market.
Rossignol, Mammut, Pieps etc are of the opinion that they're much better off spending money on acquiring customers from the US, Canada, Austria etc than the UK. And who can blame them?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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welove2ski, just a small amount of exaggeration going on there then 
| Quote: |
| The print model is dying, and is almost completely dead for niche publications |
Simply not true. Walk into any WHSmith and have a look. Some sports, like cycling, appear strong and new launches happen all the time. I'm not saying they are selling huge numbers but they certainly are not "almost completely dead".
| Quote: |
| Ski equipment in the UK is an almost non-existent market. |
It may be smaller than it once was but I'll leave it to those in the game to describe where you are wrong on this one.
| Quote: |
| The only major manufacturer that maintains any real UK presence is Salomon, and all the others - as far as I know - rely entirely on distributors. |
That's always been the case but running a subsidiary is not much different to paying a distributor.
| Quote: |
| Avalanche shovel manufacturers, for example, have no budget to market themselves to the UK public. |
Sorry, derrr, how many shovels do you think get sold and at what margin? What an odd example.
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For the dead-tree media question, this fella summed it up pretty well for me last time mags were debated on the forum...
| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
| As for dead format question... I'll browse the magazine; on average, read 80% of the articles, maybe more. But I also subscribe to WL on Facebook and probably follow links to less that 10% of the articles they post there, and don't think i've ever just bowsed the site. Why i'll wade through 6+ pages of written trip report in the magazine but wouldn't give more than 2 or 3 page-downs of attention to a web article is anyones guess... perhaps its just me, old 30something luddite IT bloke. |
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You know it makes sense.
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Bode Swiller, avalanche shovels was just the example doorman_tom gave a few posts ago, was responding to that.
And OK, I agree that I was using some poetic license there - you're quite right that magazines are still going. But readerships are declining. You still get the gist of my point, no? What do you think?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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welove2ski, see, I think if you want an avalanche shovel you'd go to Google and type in errrr... avalanche shovel and look at prices, reviews etc and you're sorted. You don't suddenly see an ad for an avalanche shovel and think "must buy an avalanche shovel", it falls into that category of items that you are either in the market for or not and brand isn't overly important but functionality is. And they are marketed, their distributors will probably have made a catalogue contribution to EB and S+R. For hardware and software marketing budget, the mags have to compete with the big retail catalogues... and the catalogues always win.
Mag readership probably is declining but it'll bottom out at a certain level and the question is whether or not that mag can survive at that level. Mind you, with so many mediums vying for our eyeballs, it isn't easy for a website to get traction either. How many ski websites have come and gone? Far more than mags that's for sure.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I get the digital edition of Powder and read that on my tablet but that's about it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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They are pants......never read them as I am too busy searching the internet for videos of skateboarders whacking their nuts off some railings.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If you're looking for something different in the digital publishing world try the new outdoor mag Church of the Open Sky (www.churchoftheopensky.co.uk).
Real ski and travel features written by real skiers and travellers, plus gear reviews that don't talk down to you...
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'valais2, Didn't get round to reading the latest posts. But agree with someone elsewhere , most magazines go 'round and round' the same old resorts and topics. We have more info and feedback here at Snowheads...I always used to by these mags, but no more.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Alfiemalfie, great first post, pimp your own site.
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Thanks, glad you appreciate it!
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Alfiemalfie, well, frankly, I got as far as the home page, saw that you then wanted me to change machine to an iPad, download the thing (presumably for money? No idea, because I couldn't be ar5ed), noticed that it appeared to be more about bigging up the artistes, and so navigated away. So, there you go, I'm a big fan of the subject matter but decided I couldn't be bothered. Constructive criticism for free.
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Well Bode, you should make more effort. It's free. And as of tomorrow it's not just available on iPad. We're new on the block and frankly we're more interested in real constructive criticism rather than cynicism disguised as such.
Considering you think it's all over for print mags you don't seem to be doing a very good job of moving with the times if 'can't be arsed' is your attitude to new digital options.
And excuse the delayed response, I'm in N Idaho researching new ski material for the mag. Read about it next winter. If you can be arsed...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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P.S. how about changing the joke. It was only amusing first time round...
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And finally, for the non cynics out there you can see the entire March edition of Church of the Open Sky for free on FB. Feedback welcome, cynical or not...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Alfiemalfie, Took a quick look, not read through it in detail yet. Quite impressed, will read through it properly.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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AlpineAddict, last one of the season should be due any day now...
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You know it makes sense.
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Richard_Sideways, Amazing news... You a reader, or do you have something to do with it?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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AlpineAddict, Sadly, no. I'm merely a reader.
Employment would mean I have to be vaguely competant at snowboarding as opposed to merely hefting my carcass down a hill once in a blue moon. As is traditional, the final edition of the season is the Gallery editon, so lots of eye candy.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Alfiemalfie, I quite liked it, good to see lots of features on Iceland.
Still feels like the typical British low end offering when compared to the US magazines like Powder and The Ski Journal and I don't think it's really making all that much use of being a digital only magazine. The real problem is that I can read trip reports and equipment reviews with that level of polish (and better in some respects) everyday for free on the interwebs on places like this, UKC and TGR. So generally I wouldn't pay for it whereas I do pay for the digital edition of Powder (cause I can't really get the print version here) even with its North American bias due to the quality of the articles in it. IMO blogs like DownDays, EarlyUps, Blister Gear Review, Unofficial Networks, Wild Snow and the like are a better example of how to put together the digital equivalent of a magazine.
Basically leverage the ability to publish articles in near realtime with rich content. Get a wide mix of regular contributors and that would be something I'd probably read everyday.
We live in a world of YouTube, Vimeo, Instagram, Twitter, forums and blogs online. In comparison this digital magazine format feels anachronistic.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Richard_Sideways, 'like'...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I suppose if you are in the market for gloves or goggles then Fall Line is worth getting for seven months as they are free with the subscription.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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meh, thanks for the constructive comments. We are working on zero budget with the Church as we have only just started up (this is our third edition) and all our contributors are providing material for free, so give us time! The aim is to have a quality mag with quality words and pics and unlike Powder, which I also have a subscription too, it won't be crammed with ads and entirely focused on one country.
Early days though, we will see...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Alfiemalfie,
Any chance of linking some vids of skateboarders smacking their nuts off of some railings?
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| meh wrote: |
| I do pay for the digital edition of Powder (cause I can't really get the print version here) even with its North American bias due to the quality of the articles in it. |
You might be surprised, I get it delivered here in Austria, and it really wasn't expensive!
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davidhammy, good idea, we will get onto it!
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| Alfiemalfie wrote: |
The aim is to have a quality mag with quality words and pics and unlike Powder, which I also have a subscription too, it won't be crammed with ads and entirely focused on one country.
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That is a biased and inaccurate opinion of Powder magazine.
Accessed the March issue via facebook.
Thanks.
Good read, very good pics.
On your home page is should read "travellers' tales"
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Mike Pow, on your reply it should read 'it should read'
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Mike Pow, P.S. That was meant in good humour...thanks for the positive comments by the way. Powder magazine would actually be something for us to aspire to...
Will now slap myself on the wrist for some sloppy proof reading...
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FAQ
