 Poster: A snowHead
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Tend to agree there. I don't mind paying a small fee for optional extras, but the relative price for those extras is way out of proportion compared to the price of transporting me or you.
Lufthansa can sell flights at €6* each way, *including* 23kg baggage, plus ski carriage, plus snack + drink. So any no frills airline charging €20-€50 for checking in a bag or skis is extortion. A typical adult plus wheely bag will weigh probably about 4-5x the maximum weight of a checked bag too.
edit: (*) the rest of the fare is aiport fees, duty, etc. so I've not included it. In fact of that €6, I assume ca. 20% of it is VAT too, so also not the airline's to play with.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 23-05-13 12:30; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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beequin, it makes sense for them to push up the price elements where there is elasticity of demand. And that means baggage, I guess. The seat price is the irreducible minimum. There is an absolutely flat charge for a bum on a seat; my skinny little 3 year old grand-daughter pays the same as a huge person weighing 17 stone! Arguably not very fair because fuel costs are directly related to weight.
Luggage over and above the hand-baggage allowance is not an essential. For those who travel light it makes very good sense to have extra charges over and above the seat price for those who don't.
I am travelling to Genoa with British Airways shortly - and my seat price doesn't include any hold baggage. I doubt very much whether my carry-on bag will be as big, or as heavy, as the very generous allowance. When I want to take a great fat heavy bag, then I expect to pay extra.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
| I am travelling to Genoa with British Airways shortly - and my seat price doesn't include any hold baggage. . |
Really? Last time I flew with BA short haul I was allowed 1 piece of hold luggage at 23kg with no extra charge. How do you buy a seat with BA that doesn't include hold luggage?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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pam w,
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When I want to take a great fat heavy bag, then I expect to pay extra.
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I agree with that. The quibble is how much extra. After all, seat prices also vary with elasticity of demand so are not at 'cost plus' price either (some are indubitably sold at less than cost so the passenger with luggage is now subsidising the cheap seats).
As to passsenger weights vs fuel there are irreducible costs in admin, finance, staffing, etc. which are not dependent on weight so the additional cost per passenger of fuel is not so big a part of the ticket price as might be imagined and can you really penalise people for their genetic inheritance (if they are tall and well built - let's not get into a debate over fat and genetics).
However, I voted with my feet and now drive out, so my fuel duty is 'subsidising' the plane (I know it's not that simple with landing /take off charges and I still take planes elsewhere occasionally or fly Swiss, but...).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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jimmybog, BA now do Hand baggage only fares. I think its only at Gatwick for now, but could be wrong.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
seat prices also vary with elasticity of demand so are not at 'cost plus' price either
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of course not, and I didn't suggest they were. What I meant was that if someone wanted to get from A to B on a plane then a seat is the minimum they can pay for; above and beyond that it's a matter of choice.
The whole travel business looks carefully at elasticities; why else would you pay many times more for a half term week than for a week in mid January, or for Saturday travel as opposed to Tuesdays? Margins are narrow and there is masses of competition. Which really means that if you are a buyer, with internet access, you are in a very good position to find yourself a cheap holiday. We've never had it so good!
jimmybog, yes, it's a recent change - I am flying from Gatwick. But it's the shape of things to come, I'm sure.
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Bob, pam w, the voices of reason. Why do people get their salopettes in such a twist about luggage. My hold bag including ski boots is usually around 15kg (managed 12.8kg with Ryanair!) and I still managed to pack more clothes than I actually needed. I find Easyjet's, Monarch's, Thomson's ski carriage costs quite reasonable considering the airlines have to pay additional fees to ground staff for handling 'special' baggage. Ryanair charge too much in my opinion, £100 return, it's cheaper to rent the skis.
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| jonkgray78 wrote: |
| jimmybog, BA now do Hand baggage only fares. I think its only at Gatwick for now, but could be wrong. |
Blimey, I'll have to be careful in future and make sure I don't book the wrong ticket. DOn't want to get stung extra when checking in at the airport. Thanks for that info
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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You could always wear the ski boots. You might look jolly odd but if you wear some mega loon pants no one will see...
I cannot believe people can manage boots, helmet and all the other techno junk necessary for a week's skiing and still have room to have enough clothes to not smell like a weasel by Tuesday and all in 20kg.
Not sure what the current score is but a couple of years ago SAS charged me 35£ (at Heathrow airport not on line) for skis, boots, poles, helmet, goggles and all the minor accoutrements in the boot bag and this was the return cost to Stockholm. Fair price for a really rather good service. Scandinavian culture frowns on companies that act like grasping cnuts.
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| Quote: |
Scandinavian culture frowns on companies that act like grasping cnuts.
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that must be why holidays in Scandinavia are so famously cheap!
jimmybog, the BA website was pretty clear - I don't think you'd miss the fact that a particular fare is "hand baggage only".
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I've only noticed the option on Gatwick routes too pam w, taken a few already but can't help but think they're the same price with the luggage one being more. It does help you can take as much as you want hand baggage.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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mcspreader, it's all to do with having a lightweight bag in the first place. My holdall containing ski boots and helmet weighs just over 6kg, so another 10kg for clothing is easy. I wear my ski jacket and moon boots on the plane. Some suitcases weigh 5kg unladen, therein lies the problem. Also I do not have any 'techno junk'.
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mcspreader, we easily do that using hard-sided Samsonite cases. My boots and helmet in one along with half our clothes, husband board bindings and helmet in another with the other half of our clothes.
We don't skimp either. we have clean t-shirts on every day over our base layers, and clean t-shirts/sweaters/shirts every evening. Wear one pair of jeans, take another one each and wear on our feet whatever we intend to wear when we're not on the slopes, i.e. boots. Wear a hoodie and body warmer.
Board and ski bag have the board/skis along with our jackets and salopettes along with an extra hoodie or two and a few other randome bits and pieces.
Usually come in just about on the nose when it comes to the weight allowance, but it can be done!
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
I do not have any 'techno junk'.
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 And those who do, of course, couldn't contemplate a week without it! Airlines aren't daft; they make money from our weaknesses.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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some of the responses on here are a bit sanctimonious or maybe they are just trolling, but i am certainly not. After several years organising our own trips, we are about to head off on a mark warner trip to st anton with our baby girl, 18 months. the only reason we are going MW is because of the child care, but she only gets a 10kg allowance. we have paid for ski carriage etc, but it looks like the off piste safety equipment, most casual clothes spare gloves etc will be staying behind. 20 kg including boots is a joke, but workable, the 5kg hand luggage is criminal. we used MW for a summer trip flying with BA and they were brilliant so booked for winter. what a mistake. i'll use them again but never on a monarch route its just not worth the stress.
obviously we haven't faced the desk agents yet, but we don't want to be unpacking and ditching stuff at the airport so everything is to weight but i'm not exaggerating when i say its ruined the trip before we leave. after boots we have 15kg for the adults and when an arcteryx medium shell weighs in at 500g you know you are in trouble. some people obviously only take one pair of socks.
and another thing, the flight is all in name a charter flight so elasticity of demand doesn't apply its about where MW are making there margins. headline cheap rate, but ryanair allowance. i'm prepared to put up with the faded glory of their hotels given the good child care, but they are not looking after their clients and particularly their key demographic by having such a restrictive baggage allowance. if they want to charge extra for a premium luggage allowance i'd be first in the queue, i want to take what i'd expect to take on a skiing holiday because i love skiing.
rant over back to removing things which MW obviously believes are a luxury for a skier. How much does a base layer weigh?? 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Mt, If you paid for ski carriage get a cheap lightweight double ski bag each and put your boots in with your skis.
I take all the safety and off piste gear including skins, shovel, probe, transceiver, harness, carabiners etc and 30m of rope, water bottle (and a hip flask full of whiskey). Plus all the usual clothes. I can't even offload things to hand luggage since I have a bad back and my back-pack contains only a roll of magic foam in case the bed is hard (essential: it could ruin my holiday otherwise).
This year, though, I have a helmet for the first time. I'm a bit worried if I can make it fit.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| mcspreader wrote: |
| I cannot believe people can manage boots, helmet and all the other techno junk necessary for a week's skiing and still have room to have enough clothes to not smell like a weasel by Tuesday and all in 20kg. |
We've been doing it for ages. I take enough kit to ski in clean cloths every day too.
It got a bit tight one year when Easyjet (I think) dropped their allowance to 18KG, but no real issues.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I always take more clothes than I need. Last season my holdall (including boots and helmet) weighed 13.8kg.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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it's really not me, try taking the kit needed to keep the baby happy in the same allowance, she only gets 10kg and no carryon. we're buying pampers in resort but you still need a few for the journey.
ok, roller bag two skis, one boots, two poles, one day sack = 26kg
one wife bag and one boot bag 20kg on the button,
one baby bag 10kg on the button,
one snowhead bag for carry over from previous two, some of the stuff we would normally carryon and then what i can fit in.
Have to take and my allowance without carry over from other bags is 15kg after boot fiasco. ski gear - flake socks x6 - arc sabre pants & jacket - arc base layers * 4 (econ wght mode) two fleeces and one atom lt. 6.3kg
so 8.7kg
optional and i'm now including more than the clothes i'm travelling in as optional.
ortovox 16l day pack and avi gear (apart from taking up loads of space in my one hold bag) weighs 2.7kg
stuff it i think you get the picture and can see i'm not carrying luxuries.
all i can say is flying swiss is priceless
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Mt, MOnarch website gives a 23kg allowance, is it different for Mark Warner?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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just called mw, £75 for another 5kg each way. that's what we'll do.
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Hells Bells, 20kg adult, 10kg infant and 5kg each for the adults carryon is how i think it is.
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Sorry for hi jacking the thread, but my wife and I took them up on a holiday as it had free ski carriage.
As both of us will be taking ski's can both pairs go into one bag, or do they have to be put into a bag each?
(Hope not as we only have 1 bag)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| Mt, MOnarch website gives a 23kg allowance, is it different for Mark Warner? |
Their standard allowance for both charter and scheduled flights is currently 20Kg.
You can pay for extra in chunks of 3Kg (scheduled) or 5Kg(charter) or if you book directly with them, you can book an "airpack" at time of booking which gives you 23 or 26 plus choice of seats, and you can still then add extra baggage as above.
5Kg extra for charter is £37.50 for each leg which is where the £75 for the return journey comes from in the post by Mt
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alex_heney, ok thanks, I was probably reading the additional pack, it wasn't clear that it was possible to add luggage without buying this.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| pam w wrote: |
But of course, it wasn't really free - just that people who didn't take skis were subsidising those who did!
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Not in any appreciable way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A320_family#Specifications
This has a max range of 3,600 miles, a maximum fuel load of 24,210 litres and a maximum takeoff weight of 68,000kg.
When maximising all these, you can make a rough guess at the number of litres of fuel it takes to take 1kg 1 mile. "Litres per kilogram per mile" (or for the scientists amongst you, "litres per kilogram-mile").
24,210/(3,600*68,000) = 0.0001
London to Geneva is about 500 miles. A set of skis is maybe 10kg. So it takes half a litre of fuel to get your skis from London to Geneva - what, 40p?
A far cry from £40 each way.
No, airlines aren't charities for bankrupt skiers, but they're not exactly going out of their way to help are they. Swiss can afford to offer flights including ski carriage for no more than any other airline charges without in the certain knowledge that it doesn't impact on their bottom line appreciably, but does give them an enormous marketing benefit when it comes to skier traffic.
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Oh FFS, just pay up or shut up. You spend £100s on kit then complain that you have to move it around! Get over it, or hire the junkers from Lucky Pierre. Cheaper still to just sit at home and wait for the sweet embrace of the grave, although hearses cost a FORTUNE these days...
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You know it makes sense.
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AFAIK airport ground staff charge airlines for many things including handling baggage. 'Special' baggage costs more than regular baggage (i.e. needs more human intervention than loading on and off conveyor belts). So I'm sure it costs a fair bit more than the mere fuel cost to transport your skis. The low-cost airlines are selling a basic service and inviting passengers to pay for any additional services they use. I expect it won't be long before all airlines adopt this practise, although I do think Ryanair are taking the pee with their £100 return ski carriage.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
I cannot believe people can manage boots, helmet and all the other techno junk necessary for a week's skiing and still have room to have enough clothes to not smell like a weasel by Tuesday and all in 20kg.
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I used to agree with that. Until I had to lug my heavy board bag AND a heavy suitcase about a million miles uphill through Val T some of it on snow. Then last year I flew BA with one piece of luggage and managed to fit everything in quite easily.
Wear jeans, trainers (or walking/snow boots - make a call on weather before you go), hoody and ski jacket on the plane.
Board and boots in a big board bag.
One small washbag with trabvel sized stuff and travel sized make up. No hair dryer or hair straightners!
Travel towel if needed.
ski stuff.
6 'normal' tshirts and one spare
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Poster: A snowHead
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oooops pressed post too soon!
6 'normal' tshirts and one spare jumper for evening wear.
PJs & hotel flat slippers.
All the ski stuff and clothing rolled and packed around the board nad boots or into hand luggage.
Helmet clipped onto hand luggage and taken on the plane. Would put it on my head if it looked like airport staff were being difficult.
Not sure what else you need? All packs into one bag+hand luggage very easily. I used ot take hair straightners and nice dresses etc for the evenings but hardly ever ended up wearing them anyway so a massive waste of space/weight.
I don't think I could fit it all into one bag+ hand luggage if I had avi kit too though.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
we're buying pampers in resort but you still need a few for the journey.
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Are Monach super tight at the boarding gate? Cos you could maybe buy the bulky stuff like some pampers, baby food nad drink in Boots once you are though security and take them on in a carrier bag?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
| mcspreader wrote: |
| I cannot believe people can manage boots, helmet and all the other techno junk necessary for a week's skiing and still have room to have enough clothes to not smell like a weasel by Tuesday and all in 20kg. |
We've been doing it for ages. I take enough kit to ski in clean cloths every day too.
It got a bit tight one year when Easyjet (I think) dropped their allowance to 18KG, but no real issues. |
Agree - clean gear every day for me, and it all goes in one case with boots. I used to pack boots separately, but not really much point.
I have to ask: why take spare gloves? If you lose them, just buy some more in resort. OK, so they're more expensive; but what's the likelihood? I've yet to lose a glove irretrievably. Maybe I'm tempting fate. Are the gloves supported with a spare hat, spare, backpack, spare coat, spare..... You get the idea.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| James the Last wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
But of course, it wasn't really free - just that people who didn't take skis were subsidising those who did!
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Not in any appreciable way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A320_family#Specifications
This has a max range of 3,600 miles, a maximum fuel load of 24,210 litres and a maximum takeoff weight of 68,000kg.
When maximising all these, you can make a rough guess at the number of litres of fuel it takes to take 1kg 1 mile. "Litres per kilogram per mile" (or for the scientists amongst you, "litres per kilogram-mile").
24,210/(3,600*68,000) = 0.0001
London to Geneva is about 500 miles. A set of skis is maybe 10kg. So it takes half a litre of fuel to get your skis from London to Geneva - what, 40p?
A far cry from £40 each way.
No, airlines aren't charities for bankrupt skiers, but they're not exactly going out of their way to help are they. Swiss can afford to offer flights including ski carriage for no more than any other airline charges without in the certain knowledge that it doesn't impact on their bottom line appreciably, but does give them an enormous marketing benefit when it comes to skier traffic. |
There's some interesting calculations that you get into when working out fuel load on aircraft as, don't forget the fuel you add has weight of its own so you need to add more fuel to cover the increase in weight and so on. This is why a small reduction in the load being carried can have significant effects on the cost of operation. Shave a few kg off and you need less fuel. Less fuel means less weight so you can lose more fuel still.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| feef wrote: |
| There's some interesting calculations that you get into when working out fuel load on aircraft as, don't forget the fuel you add has weight of its own so you need to add more fuel to cover the increase in weight and so on. |
Given we're talking about 40p here, your point is of no material relevance.
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Perhaps a bigger issue is that your "accounting policy" assumes that all the variable cost of transportation is the fuel cost, which clearly isn't true.
With helicopters they often charge based on either vertical meters, or "collective time". Both are "accounting policies" in that the actual costs (engineer maintenance time, Jet-A etc) are much more complicated and aren't precisely dependent on these simple metrics.
The whole point of "low cost" airlines isn't that they're in fact "low cost", more than they allocate costs in a different way from traditional air lines. Which works best for you depends on precisely what you want to do. Whining about it is entirely optional and will in fact make no difference.
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Some of us still 'dress' for dinner
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Yeah, so do most people. In nice jeans, nice top and nice jumper. Don't think I've seen anyone venture out in dresses or anything nicer really even at NY! Of which you can wear the jeans on the way there with your casual jumper, and pack 6 mice tope and one nice jumper!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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kat.ryb, underwar? normal socks ..or do you just wear your ski socks all the time? and you wear the same pair of jeans to travel in, wear every evening and travel back?
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If i am tight on luggage space then underwear, socks and tshirts are worn on the evening and then used for the ski day following. Kind of the opposite of normal, instead of changing into new stuff on the morning, it's changed into in the evening and then worn the following day.
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FAQ
